Cinemizer OLED

Post by **rektide** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:11 pm

I just wanted to put peoples expectations in line.

If full immersion is your bag-- it's not mine!-- these might not be the pair for you. I want these for coding & doing work while lounging about; in my case, uber-immersive would suck-- scanning a huge ass screen would be a lot of strain! I want a HD workspace that is easy to look at & take in: a virtual monitor.

Given my use case, it'd be nice if the virtual screen were a little closer. 6' is considerably farther away than my real monitor.

Everyone will be looking for different things, have different use cases.

Post by **ancjob** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:25 am

Aphradonis wrote:Why can't a midrange be created for enthusiasts? HMDs go from hundreds straight to tens of thousands. An HMD in the thousands would be affordable for enthusiasts. I'd buy a $1000-$5000 HMD if it was excellent. I'd expect 120 degrees or more, and 1080p (90 degrees and 720p for $1000-$1500).

yes - it's sold for USD$30,000 onwards..... - give it a try

btw - i think cinemizer OLED is HDMI 1.4 a compatible - plug'n'play......supporting playstation 3d formats..is it true?

Post by **nrp** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:47 am

Wow! There it is: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press ... index.html

720p and 45 degree horizontal FOV, meaning roughly 51.6 degrees diagonal. It's being released Nov 11th in Japan at 60,000 Yen. Hopefully that means its coming to the US at some point for somewhere under $800.

Post by **powerjosl** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:40 am

wrong thread mate. this is for the cinemizer oled.

I'm going to IFA on Sunday. So hopefully I can get some more info and hands on time with the cinemizer.

Post by **3dvison** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:51 am

nrp wrote:Wow! There it is: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press ... index.html

720p and 45 degree horizontal FOV, meaning roughly 51.6 degrees diagonal. It's being released Nov 11th in Japan at 60,000 Yen. Hopefully that means its coming to the US at some point for somewhere under $800.

WOW is that for real ?
Most people were saying sony won't release an HMD anytime soon...Is this really for real ?? LOL
But if it is real, when somthing is released in Japan how long till it gets released in the states ?

http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/31/sony ... -japan-no/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PalmerTech** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:19 pm

powerjosl wrote:wrong thread mate. this is for the cinemizer oled.

I'm going to IFA on Sunday. So hopefully I can get some more info and hands on time with the cinemizer.

Awesome, let us know how it goes. If they will not give you exact specs, then make sure to press hard!

Another thing to do would be to bring your own video source (Like an iPod, or ideally a PMP with HDMI out) and bring some test images/videos. If you have some images with single pixel wide lines at various angles, you should be able to ascertain if it is scaling up or down when it gets a 720p input.

Also, we should try and keep discussion of the Sony headset here: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13674" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks.

Post by **powerjosl** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:16 am

ok, looks like zeiss is not at IFA. I just checked the IFA website and went through the list of exhibiting companies and Zeiss is not even listed.
i'm going there anyways, but I don't have my hopes up to get some hands on time with the Cinemizer HD

Post by **ancjob** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:19 am

powerjosl wrote:ok, looks like zeiss is not at IFA. I just checked the IFA website and went through the list of exhibiting companies and Zeiss is not even listed.
i'm going there anyways, but I don't have my hopes up to get some hands on time with the Cinemizer HD

at-least Sony HMD is demo-ed there
see here : http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 47b#p63318" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

hope you will get the sony demo and provide your views...

Post by **ShawmK** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:13 am

I sent an email to Zeiss this morning with a few specific questions about the Cinemizer OLED.

They responded almost immediately (very nice).

I guess this information can be considered official:

Will the Cinemizer OLED be able to switch between 16:9 and 4:3 ratios? yes
What formats of 3D will it accept; will it be side-by-side (as before) or will there be other options as well? yes, side-by-side, top-bottom and line interleaved. and of course HDMI 1.4a
Will it be possible to swap the left and right images (for cross-view 3D photos) if necessary? yes
Will there be more scope for adjustment of brightness, contrast etc. or will it have a series of pre-sets as with the Cinemizer Plus? not yet final!
Is there any information about when the new Cinemizer might be available to purchase? Could it be out before the end of the year, or will it be more likely in 2012? most likely 2012 unfortunately

For me, this may actually be better than the new Sony; it will be more portable, it will have better connectivity, and the headphones can be removed if you wish. I'm looking forward to seeing what they produce!

Post by **ancjob** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:49 am

ShawmK wrote:I sent an email to Zeiss this morning with a few specific questions about the Cinemizer OLED.

They responded almost immediately (very nice).

I guess this information can be considered official:

Will the Cinemizer OLED be able to switch between 16:9 and 4:3 ratios? yes
What formats of 3D will it accept; will it be side-by-side (as before) or will there be other options as well? yes, side-by-side, top-bottom and line interleaved. and of course HDMI 1.4a
Will it be possible to swap the left and right images (for cross-view 3D photos) if necessary? yes
Will there be more scope for adjustment of brightness, contrast etc. or will it have a series of pre-sets as with the Cinemizer Plus? not yet final!
Is there any information about when the new Cinemizer might be available to purchase? Could it be out before the end of the year, or will it be more likely in 2012? most likely 2012 unfortunately

For me, this may actually be better than the new Sony; it will be more portable, it will have better connectivity, and the headphones can be removed if you wish. I'm looking forward to seeing what they produce!

only if the fov and oled resolution is on par with that of sony - which i believe it's NOT

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:58 am

Well its nice to hear that "legacy" 3D formats are also supported. Especially for use with mobile devices without HDMI 1.4a support. I mean, it sounds like a good headset, but we don't yet know if its really 720P (probably not) and FOV will likely be around 35 degrees, not ~50 like the Sony. But, yes, it will be more portable if thats what you need and also have a decent headtracker (which Sony is lacking).

Personally I am planning on getting the Vuzix Wrap 1200VR whenever it releases (hopefully soon) and probably get the Sony when it comes out in November. Unless Ziess can offer some advantage (for example super wide FOV or a better headtracker) I just don't think I can afford (or need) 3 new HMDs.

Post by **ancjob** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:30 pm

cybereality wrote:Well its nice to hear that "legacy" 3D formats are also supported. Especially for use with mobile devices without HDMI 1.4a support. I mean, it sounds like a good headset, but we don't yet know if its really 720P (probably not) and FOV will likely be around 35 degrees, not ~50 like the Sony. But, yes, it will be more portable if thats what you need and also have a decent headtracker (which Sony is lacking).

Personally I am planning on getting the Vuzix Wrap 1200VR whenever it releases (hopefully soon) and probably get the Sony when it comes out in November. Unless Ziess can offer some advantage (for example super wide FOV or a better headtracker) I just don't think I can afford (or need) 3 new HMDs.

i believe after whatever i read abt cinemizer OLED that i will be better any day compared with wrap1200VR if the head tracker is included in the deal....i'd rather wait for cinemizer OLED , wrap1200VR seems so so btw sony is settled - will buy the moment it's out in US

Post by **Synexious** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:47 pm

Really, since it is so much thinner, how could it match or exceed the Sony? I think it is safe to assume the FOV is lower, and that the resolution is as well. It would make absolutely no sense whatsoever to have a 720p HMD and not be bragging about it. The only reasonable explanation for their caginess is that the res is sub-HD. I am proceeding with purchase of the Sony. I'm going to build an awesome simulator - looking for the best WHDI solution.

Post by **ancjob** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:22 pm

Aphradonis wrote:Really, since it is so much thinner, how could it match or exceed the Sony? I think it is safe to assume the FOV is lower, and that the resolution is as well. It would make absolutely no sense whatsoever to have a 720p HMD and not be bragging about it. The only reasonable explanation for their caginess is that the res is sub-HD. I am proceeding with purchase of the Sony. I'm going to build an awesome simulator - looking for the best WHDI solution.

i'd not have high hopes with cinemizer oled either - it's oled [may be 600p] with fov 35 and head tracker included - still better than pathetic 852x480 reflective lcds in wrap1200/wrap1200vr....

btw Sony is the ultimate for now - if it comes out it's new 'KING' in the ring.....no further thoughts abt it...just go for it if it's avaialble for pre-order ! i wish i'd do that .....need to wait for the usa release at least.

Post by **superkev** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:10 am

The Cinemizer OLED does not have integrated head tracking. They did have it integrated in a prototype (such as the one shown in the racing video on YouTube) but the production units do not include it. That's not a deal breaker for me as there are many great head tracking devices it can be paired with. Carl Zeiss might revisit this next year and add head tracking in a future model.

Post by **Aeroflux** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:40 am

superkev wrote:The Cinemizer OLED does not have integrated head tracking. They did have it integrated in a prototype (such as the one shown in the racing video on YouTube) but the production units do not include it. That's not a deal breaker for me as there are many great head tracking devices it can be paired with. Carl Zeiss might revisit this next year and add head tracking in a future model.

Edit: Found a link to source this information. Either way, it looks we'll have to implement a head tracking solution for these upcoming headsets.

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:53 pm

That sucks, headtracking is a must have feature for me. I know you can DIY it, but for the price these companies are charging they can afford to tack headtracker on it. Probably more than the hardware, they don't want to have to support the device with APIs, drivers, etc. But the leaves just the Vuzix 1200VR providing a full package with headtracking and everything.

Post by **Fredz** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:09 pm

Aren't dedicated head trackers supposed to be better than the ones provided with the Vuzix or others consumer oriented HMDs ? Also buying an existing head tracker would limit problems of compatibility and drivers, which would not have been necessarily the case if Sony or Carl Zeiss did integrate one on their HMDs. I don't really see the problem here.

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:29 pm

Well there are trackers available, so yeah, its not the end of the world. Its just kinda ghetto to spend $600+ on a device, and then have to duct-tape aftermarket products onto it. And the tracker on the 1200VR is actually decent, not sure how it compares to others, but its pretty good. From the videos I saw of the optional add-on tracker Zeiss had, that was also competitive.

Post by **Aeroflux** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:09 am

TrackIR seems to have a lot of games on their support list, don't see how that could be matched by Zeiss or Sony. I'm looking into the infra-LED tracker clip for TrackIR...it looks like it would be very easy to mod--even more so for the Zeiss headset.

Edit: Velcro is much cleaner for modding than duct tape.

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:52 pm

TrackIR is good if you like simulation titles. They sadly don't support really any FPS games.

Post by **Aeroflux** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:35 am

Yeah, TrackIR seems aware of this problem...but it looks like Arma II is the only FPS they have "enhanced" support for. I read with older software TrackIR can emulate mouselook. What other solutions are there for first person shooters?

Post by **Synexious** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:50 pm

Why do they not support FPS? That's a potentially more lucrative market.

Post by **pierreye** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:06 pm

It make sense that TrackIR can't support FPS as it can't do 360 degree tracking. The max is like 120 degree but it can do 6DOF. Can't remember which simulation game, but if you move your head near the monitor, it will zoom in, pull back and it will zoom out.

Post by **Aeroflux** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:46 pm

Depth is supported on a lot of games...just take a look at the games list.

I'm trying to piece together space flight games that I can play in S3D with TrackIR. So far all I've found is Freespace 2 Open.

Post by **cybereality** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:47 pm

Well if you like sim titles, then the TrackIR may be of interest. For me about the only game thats even remotely appealing to me (that I have) is the DIRT series. I wonder if the TrackIR software can do mouse/joystick emulation so you could use it in more games (aka FPS titles). That might make it a little more appealing. That and if the SDK was available for hobbyists/indie developers.

Post by **WiredEarp** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:49 pm

Lots of sims support 6DOF TrackIR. Black Shark, A10, FSX, etc.

Its probably the best supported interface, really, if you wish to use any other trackers with existing windows games, you will need to create a tracker -> trackir 4 interface. Although Naturalpoint have tried to lock down all the new releases to only use 'real' trackIRs, there are patches you can run against those games to re-enable TrackIR4, which then allows you to use your tracker with those programs.

Post by **WiredEarp** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:08 pm

@Cyber:

TrackIR used to fully support mouse emulation. I believe they removed it after TrackIR3 to drive sales of their ridiculously expensive 'headmouse'. Someone else wrote an interface to do the same thing with a TrackIR 4. TTT, if you want better TrackIR support than TrackIR provides, your best bet currently is to use the TrackIR headset (TrackClip Pro etc) with a good webcam and Freetrack. Freetrack is actually much more powerful than stupid TrackIR - you can assign 'zones' so that when you turn your head to a certain position or angle, it presses a key or does a joystick movement. This means you can make even games that dont allow view panning to allow you to look out other views easily. I also believe it supports mouse emulation. You'll probably need to 'patch' any newer games to work with Freetrack however, but as long as you dont wish to play online, this isn't really a problem.

Post by **rektide** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:56 pm

Engadget's mid march hand's on reports not 720p, but way lower resolution: 870 x 500
http://www.engadget.com/2012/03/06/zeis ... -hands-on/

The Z800 OLED's I used to own did something like that.

Post by **Synexious** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:47 pm

I call this the Cinemizer Fauxled, for Zeiss being cagey about the resolution for over a year.

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:49 pm

Yeah, not sure there is really room for sub-HD HMDs anymore. Not with the HMZ and ST1080 coming soon.

Post by **Synexious** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:00 pm

cybereality wrote:Yeah, not sure there is really room for sub-HD HMDs anymore.

A statement which would've been unthinkable a year ago!

Post by **suckmysound** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:09 pm

my first post and a harbinger of BAD news - sorry !

they r accepting pre-orders here : http://easy-entertain.com/shop/en/cinem ... /index.php
i tried to pre-order just to check how much for this and it came to usd$700+ tax+shipping - omg
obviously i declined to proceed
slated to be shipping in july

tech details :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compatibility:
HDMI: 720p, 1080p and 3D (Frame Packing)
video-capable iPod and iPhone models (component, composite)
AV-in: yellow RCA cable (composite video, PAL / NTSC)

Diopter adjustment:
each eye separately adjustable from -5 to +2 diopters
the lens supporting a pupil distance of 59 - 69mm

Screen resolution:
High resolution 870 x 500 OLED display for each eye

(FOV engl.: Field of View):
30 degrees - equivalent to a 40-inch (102 cm) large image in 2 meters distance
16:9 widescreen

Power supply:
Rechargeable lithium-ion battery, USB charging
voltage : 5 V, current consumption: 450mA

Light source:
LED class 1

Battery life:
Battery life of up to 6 hours when fully charged Battery charge time 2.5 hours

Weight:
battery box 80 g weight on the nose 80 g glasses total about
120 g package approx 1000 g

Ports:
Mini-USB for charging the internal battery
3.5 mm audio jack for external stereo-headphone jack
3.5 mm AV (4-pin) for connecting external video sources

environmental conditions:
Operation at 5 ° C to 35 ° C storage and transport at -20 ° C to 60 ° C
humidity 10-90%, noncondensing
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

30FOV now whereas 32fov for cinemizer+[previous version] , why ? - 32fov was ok - was competing with vuzix products but 30fov now puts it in a different league altogether

dunno what to say but not for me

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:41 pm

30 degrees is pretty shabby. Even the Vuzix 1200 is 35 degrees. This is just getting worse and worse.

Post by **suckmysound** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:09 pm

cybereality wrote:30 degrees is pretty shabby. Even the Vuzix 1200 is 35 degrees. This is just getting worse and worse.

wrong post - sorry

Post by **CyberVillain** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:34 am

it takes composite video so it could become a seller in the FPV community, but for gaming or VR, no thanks!

edit: I think its too expensive for FPV only, so it might not even sell for that either

Post by **WiredEarp** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:08 am

Yep, not to mention theres a bit of a debate in FPV circles as to the best FOV.
Personally, I wouldn't think a camera taking 90 degrees having its image shoved into a 30 degree FOV would be very satisfactory, but maybe thats just me and my love of high FOV.

I'm wondering also why you'd bother with this over that Vuzix Wrap piece of junk for FPV... it just seems like a high quality version of the same thing.

For my FPV needs, I think i'll probably go buy a ST1080, and use a cheap converter to make it accept a composite signal. That, or just keep using my Z800's since they do the job...

Post by **CyberVillain** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:51 am

Most people dont like high FOV with FPV because they do not want to miss information in the edges, a missed branch or a leaf can be the death of your Quadrocopter

Fatshark is the most used FPV HMD and in their latest revision they lowered the FOV because of community feedback.

My plan is to mod my Sony HMZ to take its power of a 11.1v Lipo battery and then find a good, low latency composite>HDMI converter

Post by **WiredEarp** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:19 am

Oh yeah, actually, now I remember. Thats one reason, a bigger one is OSD's. Most OSD's need legible text and that is easier to achieve on low resolution screens like Fatsharks by shrinking the FOV. I wonder however if you lose detail due to shrinking a 90 degree screen into a 30 degree display - at the minimum it is going to shrink everything down.

Fatshark is the most used FPV HMD and in their latest revision they lowered the FOV because of community feedback.

Fatshark got a lot of community 'feedback' about the lowered FOV on the new series however. Many can handle it/like it, but a large amount prefer the immersion of the old series. I suspect this is along the utilitarian vs telepresence crowd, ie those who want to fly and film vs those who want to feel like they are actually flying. I don't think I could handle a 30 degree FOV after the 42 or 46 (cant remember which) of the Z800. No matter what, I still think 30 is way too low, even for readability and edge vision etc

A cheap/easy way to get your HMZ running off a 3S lipo, is to get a car cigarette lighter USB socket thing (actually, get several, they only cost a few $ off dealextreme etc). You can then solder leads to the terminals on it and put a JST or whatever at the other end, and plug the USB cable for your HMZ into it. That way you get a nice green LED 'on' light, a cheap power adapter etc, and dont have to modify anything on the HMZ. As you can guess, I came up with this one out of the 'I WILL BUILD IT NOW' mindset, scrounging for stuff around the house

. I also made a custom USB cable that tapped into this 5V out, and use it to run the video converter (dealextreme again

as well off a single USB cig lighter adapter.

My plan now is to build another complete circuit including batteries, and add a couple of switches to control it without plugging/unplugging. Then, if I have an issue, I'll be able to just switch quickly to the other circuit with a swap of a plug or two (normally, the 2nd receiver will be running on the main circuit to provide a diversity setup). Ideally, i'd have a spare or headset in the box as well in case my headset packed up.

Post by **CyberVillain** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:13 am

Does the HMZ have a USB port?