Nvidia 3080 or 3080 TI 3D vision support using modded drivers

Post by **TonyMontana** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:55 pm

I honestly think we should consult this guy and ask him kindly for advise, maybe some of you know him already:

Dennis Yurichev

dennis(at)yurichev.com

https://yurichev.com/main.html

https://beginners.re/main.html

https://discord.gg/N4bB8EkWDu

As far as I know, he is a (guru level) expert for reverse engineering and assembly code programming.
I am certain that Mr Yurichev has the skill to design a custom dll (loader) that could be used to restore 3DV support on the latest versions of the geforce driver.

As I have pointed out earlier, the whole DX11-3DV support is dependent on one single dll-file (ok actually two files):

nvwgf2um.dll (32-bit applications)
nvwgf2umx.dll (64-bit applications)

Mr Yurichev's task would be to either make the latest nvidia drivers support a previous dll (via the API-redirection approach) OR design a custom dll loader that injects the currently-missing parts of the 3DV code into the latest driver.

I assume that he likely wouldn't do this kind of work for free (there are options to donate money via patreon to him and I surely will donate to him if he really can do the magic).

Maybe one of the devs here could send Mr Yurichev a kind message?

Post by **skyrimer** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:10 am

This is really interesting TonyMontana, please could someone with some concept on driver level about what we want to achieve get in touch with him?

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:13 am

I think this approach is a great idea. I hold our esteemed devs in high regard of course, however more knowledge and guidance is always useful...

Post by **TonyMontana** » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:04 pm

RAGEdemon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:13 am I think this approach is a great idea. I hold our esteemed devs in high regard of course, however more knowledge and guidance is always useful...

Exactly! Mr Yurichev is reputed to read assembly language and translate it back to source code even without using a decompiler. If we manage to introduce him to our community, I am fairly optimistic that he can guide us solving the problem.

Could you please ask one of our community developers to establish the contact (perhaps a guy who speaks russian) ?

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:25 am

I would not wish to tread on toes by speaking for others. It would be best to initiate conversation straight from the horse's mouth - our uncle Bo3b

Post by **TonyMontana** » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:27 pm

Yes you are absolutely right, bo3bber is definitely the best person here to relay this subject's complexity to Mr Yurichev.

bo3bber wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:35 pm
TonyMontana wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:02 pmThese statements in particular could be useful for further investigations:

"NVAPI is forwards and backwards compatible." --> If this really is true, nvapi should call through even older driver versions.
Good reference, thanks for looking into this.

I've read all their docs and we use most of that, but I had forgotten that they commit to forwards and backwards compatible APIs.

It's a bit of a lie of course- they aren't backwards compatible now, they killed the stereo APIs. But the forwards compatible part means that they will at least leave the APIs in place. So in principle if we can get this to work, it has a chance to continue working.

So if we were to find a skilled reverse engineer, they would not necessarily need to have access to a full 3DV hardware-setup, instead it would be sufficient to make anaglyph mode working - maybe this could speed up the testing process a little? (Also for anyone who wants to set up a secondary system for testing)
We setup HelixVision to use Discover mode, because most VR users won't have 3D Vision hardware available. So in general, discover mode is what I target. I convert the image from the buffers before it gets colorized.

Regarding bo3bber's above statement, Mr Yurichev would not necessarily need physical access to a 3DV-compatible monitor nor the shutter glasses at all! - The goal would be to enable discover mode (and later on proper 3DV) on the latest drivers, possibly via in-memory-code-injection.

Post by **3DNovice** » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:51 am

Post by **Lysander** » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:55 am

3DNovice wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:51 am I still wonder if filing a driver regression bug would correct the issue.

But it's not a bug if they officially stated there's no more 3D Vision support in the new drivers.

Post by **TonyMontana** » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:09 pm

Honestly speaking, the only way I currently see to fix this "bug" is to dive into the driver code at low level (assembly code) and fix it ourselves. Of course, this requires advanced assembly programming skills as well as a lot of time.
But it should not be impossible to solve especially if an expert will be guiding us (e.g. Mr Yurichev).

What gives me hope is that D3D9-3DV is still working even with the RTX-30 cards, so it is (thank god) definitely not a hardware limitation, but instead solely a driver issue. My theory is that Nvidia have (rather accidentally than on purpose) overwritten the stereo code that manages DX11. So our task will be to identify and restore this particular code. The code I speak of resides in earlier versions of the two .dll files I have mentioned above.

Post by **3DNovice** » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:54 pm

Post by **TonyMontana** » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:46 pm

3DNovice wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:54 pm
At one point, bo3b had a contact that worked at Nvidia that would pass along driver issues that needed attention and they were doing great at fixing them.

So I would hold out hope that there's a chance for it to be corrected, if the information is passed along in a correctly formatted informative way.

That's very interesting to hear. I cross my fingers that bo3bber's contact from Nvidia's inner circle is still present today.
While 452.22 is the latest known driver version that supports 3DV DX11 and the first official driver with RTX-300 support is 456.38, I wonder whether anyone knows if driver versions in between do exist (e.g. 452.23, 452.24, beta drivers, etc.)?
The person at NV could pass along those unofficial drivers to us and with a little luck there is a driver among them that supports both 3DV and the new cards as well.

Post by **Lysander** » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:56 pm

TonyMontana wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:46 pm The person at NV could pass along those unofficial drivers to us and with a little luck the problem is solved.

Actually that's the last thing I'd rely on. I don't know how nVidia operates, but in companies I worked at, releasing unofficial products is not allowed unless it goes through the legal department and has formal approval (thus basically making it official). So...
A more realistic scenario is if that person just puts the old code back into the new drivers (with approval) - this could be as easy as telling the upper management "hey, we removed this by mistake, this doesn't affect anything else, I'll stick it back in" in some meeting and bo3b's your uncle

Unless, of course, someone had vested interest in purposely removing this (but then why leave DX9?).

Post by **TonyMontana** » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:10 pm

Well, I guess you're right. There's also the chance that in a worst case, Nvidia would pull out the remaining DX9 code support which would make the disaster complete.

So I assume, learning assembly language and reversing will be the best thing to do for now

Has bo3bber been around these days?

Post by **3DNovice** » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:14 pm

Post by **3DNovice** » Sun May 30, 2021 12:33 am

Post by **3DNovice** » Sun May 30, 2021 12:39 am

Post by **Skawen** » Mon May 31, 2021 5:39 am

Thank You for this post about new features in HelixVision.
Did I get it right - "This version includes a conversion to 3D Vision Direct, so if you have a monitor or projector, you can use this to convert SuperDepth3D into 3D Vision Direct. It's automatically done if 3D Vision is enabled." that now we who have only 3D monitor can play SuperDepth games like Assassins Creed & RDR2

Post by **3DNovice** » Mon May 31, 2021 10:35 am

Post by **DJ-RK** » Mon May 31, 2021 11:22 am

Skawen wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 5:39 am Thank You for this post about new features in HelixVision.
Did I get it right - "This version includes a conversion to 3D Vision Direct, so if you have a monitor or projector, you can use this to convert SuperDepth3D into 3D Vision Direct. It's automatically done if 3D Vision is enabled." that now we who have only 3D monitor can play SuperDepth games like Assassins Creed & RDR2

That is how I interpreted it myself as well, so seems promising!

Post by **pj519** » Mon May 31, 2021 11:38 am

I tested it in assassins creed unity and it works. But I guess it can be used in dx11 for now. Dx12 doesn't seem to be supported yet.

Post by **Lysander** » Mon May 31, 2021 12:36 pm

pj519 wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 11:38 am I tested it in assassins creed unity and it works. But I guess it can be used in dx11 for now. Dx12 doesn't seem to be supported yet.

Is it any different than CMU? CMU also works in AC:Unity.

Post by **pj519** » Mon May 31, 2021 3:01 pm

Lysander wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 12:36 pm
pj519 wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 11:38 am I tested it in assassins creed unity and it works. But I guess it can be used in dx11 for now. Dx12 doesn't seem to be supported yet.
Is it any different than CMU? CMU also works in AC:Unity.

CMU and SuperDepth3d have halos around items but we all know that, it's normal with z-buffer. In my opinion, Helifax's CMU is better if only because you can assign any key to the Convergence and Separation settings, which is useful during cutscenes. You can then set a low convergence to read the subtitles. If Bo3b added dx12 support it would be cool.

Post by **Chtiblue** » Mon May 31, 2021 4:07 pm

pj519 wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 3:01 pm
CMU and SuperDepth3d have halos around items but we all know that, it's normal with z-buffer. In my opinion, Helifax's CMU is better if only because you can assign any key to the Convergence and Separation settings, which is useful during cutscenes. You can then set a low convergence to read the subtitles. If Bo3b added dx12 support it would be cool.

With SuperDepth3D you can also add keys for differents depth/conv presets so CMU=SD3D.

SD3D works also with Dx12 games

Post by **pj519** » Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:22 am

Chtiblue wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 4:07 pm
pj519 wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 3:01 pm
CMU and SuperDepth3d have halos around items but we all know that, it's normal with z-buffer. In my opinion, Helifax's CMU is better if only because you can assign any key to the Convergence and Separation settings, which is useful during cutscenes. You can then set a low convergence to read the subtitles. If Bo3b added dx12 support it would be cool.
With SuperDepth3D you can also add keys for differents depth/conv presets so CMU=SD3D.

SD3D works also with Dx12 games

But the SuperDepth3D to 3DVisionDirect conversion that Bo3b did, probably still doesn't support dx12. I could be wrong, I haven't tested it.

Post by **Chtiblue** » Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:03 am

Yep you're right

Post by **3DNovice** » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:32 pm

Post by **3DNovice** » Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:01 pm

Post by **3DNovice** » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:53 pm

Post by **Lysander** » Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:13 pm

3DNovice wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:53 pm lol, I installed 466.77 and was looking at the release notes, Nvidia still lists CM as an option

"3D Compatibility Mode3D Compatibility Mode is an NVIDIA proprietary rendering mode for 3D Vision that improves the 3D experience for many key DirectX 10 and 11 games. NVIDIA continues to add game support with new driver versions. "

https://us.download.nvidia.com/Windows/ ... -notes.pdf

FFS, they need to remove that misinformation....

Or flag it as a bug - maybe the unsuspecting developer will go "oh yeah, 3DV path is missing, how did that happen? I guess I better put it back in"

Post by **3DNovice** » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:53 pm

Post by **jurandyrafael** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:12 pm

I've been following the forum for some time now, I come to say that it's a great job, it would be great to have back what Nvidia took away. I don't know how the project is going today but I hope that someday we can achieve results. Thank you very much.

Post by **3DNovice** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:25 pm

Post by **skyrimer** » Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:00 am

That "look into alternatives" looks promising, the thing is how will that apply to 3d vision in general, his solution may not be compatible with our 3d hardware and work only in VR.

Post by **3DNovice** » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:43 pm

Post by **whyme466** » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:43 pm

I certainly hope some alternative arises in the future. It appears the fluid pump in my hybrid 2080 Ti has died (card now reaches 90 C within a minute after power up) - after 11 years of 3D gaming, I am unable to enjoy the wonderful immersion it provides…

Post by **3DNovice** » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:09 pm

Post by **Losti** » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:03 am

whyme466 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:43 pm I certainly hope some alternative arises in the future. It appears the fluid pump in my hybrid 2080 Ti has died (card now reaches 90 C within a minute after power up) - after 11 years of 3D gaming, I am unable to enjoy the wonderful immersion it provides…

Yeah i have purcheased mine on ebay and it has really high temps and fan speed like a helicopter. I have whatched a video to how to replace the thermal paste. NOW its silent and cool.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:18 am

Gents, I can highly recommend liquid metal - something like conductonaut. It will lower temps between 5-10 degrees.

I did some experiments. The problem with tower cases and GPUs is that they just recirculate the hot air. What is needed is 2 huge intake fans at the bottom of the case blowing new cool air upwards into the gpu, to exhaust the GPU hot air upwards. I can draw a few diagrams if it's difficult to picture.

100% fan...
Liquid metal: 70C > 63C
Cutting massive hole at bottom of my case and putting 2x 140mm fans there: 63C to 54C.

Now, I run 2070MHz core consistently at 54 degrees C. Fans stay at ~80%.

Only problem to look out for is to ensure you have proper dust filters on all case intake fans, or else the GPU/CPU heatsink will clog up quickly. Recommend a thorough clean when taking it apart for mods.