The Sony HMD is real!

Post by **CyberVillain** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:13 pm

Sorry donkaradiablo my HMZ box is in bits now, and the only other 1080p cabale display I have is my home cinema projector, and I dont feel to carry my computer out to the livingroom (The watercooling weights a ton), youll have to wait until I put together the box again :/

My settings are at max @720p (Ultra for all that has ultra and 4x MSAA, HBAO)

edit: Did a test without AA since that whats toms benchmark is using that you linked to, I get (min max avarage) with vsync and stero disabled (Cant test stereo without HMZ) in 1280x1024 on my trusty old SPVA 19 inch

115, 152, 142.300

Post by **donkaradiablo** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:52 pm

Well, you've provided plenty info already, thanks

to recap, @720

without AA, Stereo disabled, SLI enabled: 142 average, 115 min (well, a little more than that, those are at 1280x1024)
with AA, Stereo disabled, SLI enabled: 105 average 88 min
with AA, Stereo enabled, SLI enabled: 54 average, 44 min
with AA, Stereo enabled, SLI disabled: 30 average, 24 min

So

it would be quiet playable (over 30 fps min) without AA, Stereo enabled with a single 580
it would be barely playable (30 fps average) with AA, Stereo enabled with a single 580

but

SLI would get you a constant 60 fps without AA, Stereo enabled
SLI would also get you an average of almost 60 fps with AA, Stereo enabled

considering that GTX 680 fares well against a GTX 590,

a GTX 680 should be fine. For now.
But if you've got the money, going for SLI with GTX 680 will ensure that you don't drop below 60 fps even with the highest settings and AA in BF3 and also that you have some headroom for more demanding games.

In conclusion,

I can't say that one GTX 580 isn't enough for BF3 to be playable with HMZ-T1,
But neither can I say that there is no use for a second GTX 680 if you're only gonna run the game at 720p
My personal choice would be to get one GTX 680 and a SSD for a smoother gaming experience.
But if you don't have a budget constraint, go for SLI After all, you could turn one off if you've come to detect micro-stuttering in a game.

Post by **pierreye** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:01 pm

SSD doesn't improve gameplay framerate. It only help to decrease load time of the OS, apps and games. Most game were optimize for harddisk so that it wouldn't impact the framerate as long as you have enough RAM. I mostly install OS, apps and swap file on SSD. Games and Movies are stored on huge harddisk.

Post by **WiredEarp** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:07 pm

CV, why are you running with AA up on max @ 720P? Why not run lesser AA and play at 1920x1080?

The AA setting might explain the performance gap. I can't remember what I'm running on but I doubt it it would be max. I generally prefer to have full res and max frame rate rather than full AA, I dont really notice the difference between me and high AA. Running in stereo you could get away with lesser AA as well due to the 'stereo antialias' effect, so I think donkaradiablo will be fine with a single 680 for the immediate future.

@ pierreye, SSD is useful for some games (BF3) since it can improve your level load times - meaning you get a better chance to get the best vehicles

. As you say tho, it doesn't affect in game performance.

Post by **donkaradiablo** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:18 pm

SSD doesn't improve framerates. But not only it decreases load times, it also helps avoid glitches. That's what I mean by smoother gaming experience. I have one for the OS and apps, another for games. But I've ofter heard one for the OS (and swap file) is enough to maintain a smooth experience. I think having at least one SSD before you consider getting a second GTX 680 is a good idea. But in terms of peak brute force, nothing compares to getting more GPU power for games for sure

WiredEarp wrote:CV, why are you running with AA up on max @ 720P? Why not run lesser AA and play at 1920x1080?

720p is the way to go for HMZ-T1. You either get 720p@60hz or 1080p@24hz over HDMI and 1080p is downscaled to 720p by the external processor unit anyway (as it is the native resolution for the oled screens on the glasses)

donkaradiablo wrote:http://www.docs.sony.com/release/HMZT1_refguide.pdf
Video input (3D: Frame Packing, Sideby-Side and Top-and-Bottom formats):
720/50p, 720/60p, 1080/50i, 1080/60i, 1080/24p

The HMDI 1.4a standard used to connect HMZ-T1 processor unit to your PC supports 1080p@24hz and 720p@60hz in Stereo3D mode. With nvidia 3d Vision Glasses and compatible monitors, we get around that by connecting the monitor with a dual-link DVI cable (which supports 1080p@60hz). It isn't an option with the HMZ-T1.

So if you try to run a game at 1080p and let the HMZ-T1 processor unit handle downsampling, you get 24hz over hdmi and still end up with 720p on the glasses (but with supersampled graphics). Running the game at 720p@60hz and getting a better rendering quality with AA seems like the obviously better choice (for gaming)

Post by **WiredEarp** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:24 pm

Oh of course, sorry, forgot we were talking about the HMZ for a moment there...

Post by **CyberVillain** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:15 am

Im pretty sure the scaler in the HMZ will do a porer job of scaling down from 1080 to 720 and without introducing any aliasing than going native 720p with AA

But maybe max AA is overkill next time I play in stereo i can drop it down to 2xAA

edit: Wired missed your last post before posting this

Post by **WiredEarp** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:19 am

my benchmark was done in the first 30 seconds of the mission "Going Hunting"

I don't know how to get to this mission, think i've restarted from scratch for some reason after clocking it (to do it on max difficulty maybe?). When running the one after semper fi, which seems a pretty complex and busy city level, I get 32-45 fps in 3D mode. Ultra texture, everything else high, deferred antialiasing off, normal antialiasing max. Oh, 90 degree fov and no motion blur.

Definitely smooth enough for gaming, but if those were multiplayer FPS i'd upgrade today haha. Normally I play in 2D for serious multiplayer and get about 90 fps, because I find the 3D is just a bit more visual work to process. I've noticed however that I can play in 3D when flying the helis and still be nearly as competitive.

I'm very happy with my fps, but think I should sell off my card and buy a 680 soon, just for the extra life I'll get out of it, the future expansion possibilities (adding an extra card when needing more power), and especially for the multiple video ports.

Post by **CyberVillain** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:00 am

WiredEarp wrote:
my benchmark was done in the first 30 seconds of the mission "Going Hunting"
I don't know how to get to this mission, think i've restarted from scratch for some reason after clocking it (to do it on max difficulty maybe?). When running the one after semper fi, which seems a pretty complex and busy city level, I get 32-45 fps in 3D mode. Ultra texture, everything else high, deferred antialiasing off, normal antialiasing max. Oh, 90 degree fov and no motion blur.

Definitely smooth enough for gaming, but if those were multiplayer FPS i'd upgrade today haha. Normally I play in 2D for serious multiplayer and get about 90 fps, because I find the 3D is just a bit more visual work to process. I've noticed however that I can play in 3D when flying the helis and still be nearly as competitive.

I'm very happy with my fps, but think I should sell off my card and buy a 680 soon, just for the extra life I'll get out of it, the future expansion possibilities (adding an extra card when needing more power), and especially for the multiple video ports.

When you (Or someone else) get a 680 I would like if we could do a serious benchmark, would be fun to see how SLI holds out to a single card since they are very similar in performance

Post by **WiredEarp** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:31 am

When you (Or someone else) get a 680 I would like if we could do a serious benchmark, would be fun to see how SLI holds out to a single card since they are very similar in performance

Yeah its almost like a 680 is just a single GPU 590 substitute.

Post by **cybereality** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:20 pm

Just wanted to chime in and say the HMZ is awesome. Disregarding the comfort issues for a second, the image quality is just amazing compared to everything else I've tried. This finally feels like we are living in 2012. Now just to find a decent headtracker...

Post by **WiredEarp** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:01 am

Agree with that, only used one for a few minutes and it was very hard to not just buy one on the spot. Miles better than the Z800 in terms of colour vibrance etc, and a nice big screen as well (nowhere near big enough but still way better than all the Vuzix crap). Its just so clear and colourful! I thought the Z800 colour was ok until I used the HMZ...

Post by **CyberVillain** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:28 am

I never got focus over the entire image with the stock design, I really hope I will get it after my skigoggle mod, do you get full focus cyber?

Post by **3dvison** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:35 pm

cybereality wrote:Now just to find a decent headtracker...

Hi cybereality,
This would only be an idea, if it can even be done, for someone going with a helmet type design for the HMZ-t1.
Do you think the Vuzix 6dof tracker was so good, it would justify buying a cheap wrap920(bad screens maybe) plug the 6dof tracker into it and mount it on a helmet with the HMZ-t1 ?

Do you know if that would work, and if so, would it even be worth the money and effort ?

Post by **cybereality** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:06 pm

@CyberVillain: Yes, the image is almost fully in focus, enough that it is not a problem. There are two small issues. One, the entire screen does not have exactly the same focus, so some parts a slightly more blurry than others. In games, this is no problem and not even noticeable. But reading text in a website, it could be better. Second, there is an issue ( I think with my eye-sight ) where I see a slight ghost of certain images below the real image. This is most apparent with white text on a black background. Strangely I don't see this in real life, or when looking at a monitor. But something about the optics on the HMD does this to my eyes. But these are small issues. For the most part it is a very clean and crisp image.

@3dvison: Well you can buy the Vuzix 6TC tracker itself for $150 (less on eBay). Someone would just need to figure out how to hack it to interface on USB. Probably easier (and cheaper) to get a stand-alone tracker like from Sparkfun, Hillcrest, etc. The Vuzix tracker is good, but probably not any better than other stuff out there.

Post by **3dvison** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:33 pm

cybereality wrote:The Vuzix tracker is good, but probably not any better than other stuff out there.

Thanks cybereality,
My post was long, but that is all I really wanted to know.

Post by **SDM** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:20 pm

Can never leave well enough alone, don't like exposed electronics, nor the look of the cover I made to remedy that, so tried a different goggle mod approach (using exact same goggles as before). Still a bit of tweaking left, but wanted a better/stronger cover, so just decided to mod the original. This obviously voids the warranty, much plastic cut away to clear nose/lighten/etc.., but I'm extremely pleased with attempt #2 here (though my first mod was functionally just as good/comfortable too). Once final tweaked can show what I did if anyone is interested, but aside from better optic mods (higher FOV) or such, this is pretty much the "ultimate" HMZ mod for me now.

Post by **cybereality** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:35 pm

Looking good.

Post by **CyberVillain** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:46 pm

Crap, didnt find any time to work on the unit this weekend.. :/ Will have to try to get some time after work this week...

Post by **rajveer** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:48 pm

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, and I'm a bit late with this post, but from the Silicon Micro website it looks as if input lag on the ST1080 is 16.7ms vs the HMZ-T1's 30ms. Sorry I put this in the Sony thread, thought it would be relevant as there was some discussion about input lag earlier.

http://www.siliconmicrodisplay.com/1/po ... t1080.html at the bottom of the comments section.

Post by **WiredEarp** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:16 pm

Thanks rajveer. That sounds like the lag introduced by the sequential display tech they are using however - it may not be taking into account any additional lag caused by the display interface box.

Post by **pierreye** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:21 am

Found out a way to reduce the lens reflection at the edge. Removed the plastic lens cover and paint the edge of the lens with
matte black paint.

IMG_0384.JPG

Ski goggles mod in progress.

IMG_0385.JPG

IMG_0386.JPG

Post by **CyberVillain** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:54 am

Nice, so even you got tired of the stock design

We're at about the same stages in our mod, I have not had time for a week now, will try to work some on it this week or this weekend. Have you choosen a mounting solution? I will make a baseplate in alu that will have oval holes fizzed into it so you can slide the HMZ eyepiece and adjust the distance to eyes that way, will use L-shaped mountings you can find in hardware stores to mount the baseplate to the glass.

Im thinking of using matte spray paint, sprayed from the inside of the glass to darken it, since light will be able to leak in through the hole im thinking of using some kind of foam and cut out holes for the lensens and attach them on the inside of the skigogles, this way they will follow the lenses if you use the pupil adjuster

Post by **pierreye** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:17 am

Most likely I'll use aluminium L bracket or plastic L bracket for mounting. I'm thinking to design the mount that can tilt the lens up/down for better focus. Reason I go for Ski mod is when I jump few times with the previous mounting, the position of the lens move slightly out of focus.

Post by **CyberVillain** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:01 am

pierreye wrote:Most likely I'll use aluminium L bracket or plastic L bracket for mounting. I'm thinking to design the mount that can tilt the lens up/down for better focus. Reason I go for Ski mod is when I jump few times with the previous mounting, the position of the lens move slightly out of focus.

Is a adjustable up/down mount really necessary? I choose a positon on the glass so that my pupils are centerted on the lens, then I can move the entire goggle to fine adjust until I get a perfect vertically position, horizontally I'll use the built in adjuster, and for Z I use the base plate as described

Post by **pierreye** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:16 am

It's not the adjustment of up/down but tilting the angle of the lens maybe in +/- 10 degrees up/down. Could be useful if you can focus the bottom screen but slightly blur on the top or vice versa.

Post by **CyberVillain** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:17 pm

pierreye wrote:It's not the adjustment of up/down but tilting the angle of the lens maybe in +/- 10 degrees up/down. Could be useful if you can focus the bottom screen but slightly blur on the top or vice versa.

ah, thats thougher, and to get it to be stable, how will you do that?

Post by **pierreye** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:24 pm

Most likely with screws and rubber wedges. I'm still brainstorming on the mechanism.

Post by **SDM** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:30 am

Have shortened my HMZ about an inch closer to goggle frame vs. last pics I posted (still looks the same in general though). Wanted tilt adjustment too, I used turnbuckles (found in local RC shop). Turn one way, pushes both pieces away, other way moves both closer, hence can not only adjust tilt (more than enough), but also exact distance from eye to lens on each side.

I use no extra mounting plate now by the way, setup is a 4 point mount that uses the lexan edge from goggles atop (to red circled conveniently located/built in mount points in pic below), turnbuckles on each side of lower frame. Assembled unit is VERY stout, as if goggles and HMZ are one/were made as one.

Any way, sorry for dark turnbuckle pic, but hopefully can see how the turnbuckles were used. Zip tie is only on white plastic piece for cable strain relief, will tidy that up a bit now that I've nailed things down final, have the time.

Post by **CyberVillain** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:25 pm

Just did the hole in the glass, i still have to make adjustments for the HMZ to fit, but its a start

Post by **pierreye** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:43 pm

Going to copy SDM design. I try out the original casing and at the point of no return by cutting of the nose pieces and side wing to mount it nearer to the eye. So far it fit the googles. Still missing some mounting point at below and going to do more drilling.

Post by **pierreye** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:57 am

Shameless copy of SDM ski goggles mod. Thanks for the idea. I just use double sided tape to mount the top extruded plastic to the internal of the goggles. Going to add extra screws at the bottom for adjustment of tilting the HMD.

Post by **CyberVillain** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:39 am

Nice, but using tape? Doesnt sound like it will hold?

I will try to get time this weekend to make the baseplate for my mod

Post by **WiredEarp** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:03 am

Nice, but using tape? Doesnt sound like it will hold?

Would depend on the tape hes using - some of the hobby stuff I have is apparently also used for sticking skirt kits to actual cars, so it must be pretty strong

Loving the look of some of these mods - would really like to see some better photos of these 'turnbuckles' so I can understand what is being talked about though.

Post by **pierreye** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:20 am

CyberVillain wrote:Nice, but using tape? Doesnt sound like it will hold?
I will try to get time this weekend to make the baseplate for my mod

I'm using industrial strength 3M double sided heat resistance tape.

Post by **CyberVillain** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:23 am

pierreye wrote:
CyberVillain wrote:Nice, but using tape? Doesnt sound like it will hold?
I will try to get time this weekend to make the baseplate for my mod
I'm using industrial strength 3M double sided heat resistance tape.

Ok, will that hold if you jump up and down every day for very long?

I must admit that I have no experience with high-end tapes so I dont have a clue, but I always looked and using tape has a 'ugly hack'

Post by **WiredEarp** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:29 am

If thats the same stuff I've seen, its pretty damn strong. One of its uses is mounting skirt kits to cars...

Post by **pierreye** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:45 am

Yup. That's the same stuff used for automotive. It's quick and simple, not that ugly as it is hidden.

Post by **CyberVillain** » Thu May 03, 2012 5:10 am

pierreye wrote:Yup. That's the same stuff used for automotive. It's quick and simple, not that ugly as it is hidden.

I have given my base plate to a guy at my company that will fizz it for me, while I wait for him to get it done (Those guys at the Precision Engineering department works really slow

) I'm going to work on the 5 volt mod.

Im thinking of getting the DC-DC-stepdown pierreye linked to, a question though, if the 220 Volt powersupply in the HMZ box is a switched powersupply it can take damage from getting 5 volts from behind the power stage which it will it if fed it from the points PalmerTech showed in his picture.

My question is, has anyone fed this baby with 5 Volts, and did the PSU in the HMZ box hold? How many hours have you driven it in this way?

Post by **brantlew** » Thu May 03, 2012 7:27 am

Here's another adjustable DC step down. A bit more expensive, but I use them and can vouch that they are quality parts.

http://www.dimensionengineering.com/products/de-swadj3

PS. Maybe you guys should consider creating a thread for specific mods. (ie. Sony HMZ Ski Goggle Mod)