electrical muscle stimulation of forearms and palms

[VRus]

Hello all,

just found this
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... -them.html

in combination with Rift it could make future sword and fighting games 'painfully' immersive
Basicaly it is a 'ring around your finger' type of gadget that induces muscle contractions in your forearms
and palms

Never though it could be possible to simulate g-forces (which IMO is a very big deal for VR), but this could
already be a step in that direction. Combine it with a bit of galvanic vestibular stimulation (GWS),
with Brantlew's Red Rovr... and we're getting as close to the proverbial 'Matrix' as we ever have been.

p.s. hugely knowledgeable and friendly VR community out there!
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[geekmaster]

Hello all,

just found this
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... -them.html

in combination with Rift it could make future sword and fighting games 'painfully' immersive
Basicaly it is a 'ring around your finger' type of gadget that induces muscle contractions in your forearms
and palms ...

That sounds a lot using a TENS unit for muscle toning:
http://www.ehow.com/how_4809903_use-ten ... scles.html

I have a few TENS units. It would be interesting to tie them into a VR environment to simulate damage to the body, such as bullet or stab wounds. The stimulation is MUCH more intense (depending on TENS adjustments) than any vibrotactile stimulation...

[KBK]

As a person who values my body and knows that science is a thing that grows and does things.

That muscle stimulation via external electrical means is like saying that one can make a man's foot twitch.... by blowing his head off.

That muscle stimulation, as an answer to this feedback issue.... has just about the equivalent level of understanding and sophistication.

[geekmaster]

As a person who values my body and knows that science is a thing that grows and does things.

That muscle stimulation via external electrical means is like saying that one can make a man's foot twitch.... by blowing his head off.

That muscle stimulation, as an answer to this feedback issue.... has just about the equivalent level of understanding and sophistication.

Yes, if you say so... But the TENS units provide a repeatable experience, whereas delivering muscle twitches via destructive and messy head removal is a "one-shot" solution, making it not very practical for widespread adoption by gamers...

[VRus]

As a person who values my body and knows that science is a thing that grows and does things.

That muscle stimulation via external electrical means is like saying that one can make a man's foot twitch.... by blowing his head off.

That muscle stimulation, as an answer to this feedback issue.... has just about the equivalent level of understanding and sophistication.

no doubt it is very crude compared to say prosthetic limbs that are surgically hard-wired to specific nerves,
but in terms of 'warable' device there is nothing better available yet (correct me if i'm wrong), while anything
more sophisticated/involved goes into 'cyborg' territory, which no average consumer would want to get into

blowing head off to twitch the foot is correct but way overblown metaphor

[KBK]

blowing head off to twitch the foot is correct but way overblown metaphor

I agree. But it was fun to write it!

[geekmaster]

blowing head off to twitch the foot is correct but way overblown metaphor

I agree. But it was fun to write it!

Saying that blowing your head off was a "one-shot" solution (pun intended) was fun to write too.

[EdZ]

As a person who values my body and knows that science is a thing that grows and does things.

That muscle stimulation via external electrical means is like saying that one can make a man's foot twitch.... by blowing his head off.

That muscle stimulation, as an answer to this feedback issue.... has just about the equivalent level of understanding and sophistication.

The stimulation levels used here are much lower than used in TENS therapy (or the 'muscle tone' belts you can purchase). Your analogy is incorrect, and your conclusion erroneous.

This is actually a very clever idea: the major failure of the Wiimote, the Kinect and the LeepMotion are that there is no proprioceptive feedback to any sort of interaction with a virtual environment (i.e. if your avatar's hand hits a virtual object, your actual hand will just go sailing straight through). Mechanical haptic devices are currently bulky and well outside the price range of consumers. If a method to reliable place the electrodes (or a sleeve with a grid of electronically selectable electrodes used) to allow the feedback to be applied correctly could be produced, this would significantly improve immersion and ease of interaction with virtual objects at a significantly lower cost than mechanical haptic devices. A mechanical glove to fine interaction (i.e. fingers) would likely still be desirable, due to the difficulty in reliably placing electrodes to stimulate the numerous muscles involved in finger movement, but avoiding a whole arm + torso rig solves a lot of problems.

[Fredz]

This is actually a very clever idea: the major failure of the Wiimote, the Kinect and the LeepMotion are that there is no proprioceptive feedback to any sort of interaction with a virtual environment (i.e. if your avatar's hand hits a virtual object, your actual hand will just go sailing straight through).

They're certainly not appropriate for tactile or proprioceptive feedback as you said, but that was never the goal in the first place. They worked (and still do) very well for what they were made for.

If a method to reliable place the electrodes (or a sleeve with a grid of electronically selectable electrodes used) to allow the feedback to be applied correctly could be produced, this would significantly improve immersion and ease of interaction with virtual objects at a significantly lower cost than mechanical haptic devices.

This technology looks very interesting, but I don't understand how it could be used as a replacement for haptics. Basically it only deals with muscles, but when you are hit by something your muscles are not necessarily involved in the process. Am I missing something ?

[VRus]

This technology looks very interesting, but I don't understand how it could be used as a replacement for haptics. Basically it only deals with muscles, but when you are hit by something your muscles are not necessarily involved in the process. Am I missing something ?

I imagine it would work by simulating 3rd Newtonian law: any action of virtual object on your body should produce equal and opposite reaction, that reaction should
come from your own muscle tones to oppose the virtual force, to me that's the main difference compared to using heptics.

The shown prototype in the article is ok for tablet-type gaming, but a bit useless for full-body VR.
Imagine virtual door in front of you, by pushing it open you feel resistance not only
on your palm, forearm, shoulder (and even torso if the door is heavy), all those groups
should be stimulated, albeit crudely, to approach the reasonably authentic feel

Ideally, one could wear several e-stimulation bandages to really feel the virtual objects and
their physics.

To me the carious question is one of physiology: how do we feel the surrounding objects
with our whole body (except for the tactile sensations at the skin-point of touch),
is it mainly opposite muscular tension/pain that gives away sensation of the overall force?
If not, how much (percentage-wise) muscular tones can contribute to simulating
the sensations, i.e. how much of a chance this technique can have in future VR 'peripherals'

[Fredz]

I imagine it would work by simulating 3rd Newtonian law: any action of virtual object on your body should produce equal and opposite reaction, that reaction should
come from your own muscle tones to oppose the virtual force, to me that's the main difference compared to using heptics.

That's what I don't get, if the opposite reaction comes from the muscles then it can't really simulate proprioceptive feedback.

Say I'm playing a virtual tennis game in VR with a PS Move in my hand. When I strike the virtual ball, the agonist muscles of my arm are activated by myself for the needed swing of the racket. At the moment the ball is hit, my arm is slowed down. Using this technology the system should activate my antagonist muscles because that would be the only way to slow down my arm, but in real life they would stay unactivated.

Same thing if I'm playing a virtual boxing game and I'm hit by a punch in the face. My head moves, but not because I've activated my muscles.

In both case the end result is the same than in reality, my arm slows down and my head moves. But my own perception of the phenomenon is not the same at all, since in the simulated case my muscles are activated by the system, and in the real case my muscles stay unactivated.

So I really don't see how this technology could be able to simulate proprioceptive feedback.

[EdZ]

The idea is that the system activates the muscles, but it does so without input from your nervous system; the agonist muscle spindles fire due to the unexpected expension, causing the agonist muscles to contract and a feedback provided to your CNS that you arm has experienced a force upon it (which was counteracted by the reflex action of the agonist muscles contracting). You don't feel the initial contraction that triggered the agonist response, so you feel a force from nowhere.

Essentially, your own muscles provide the 'force feedback' that would otherwise have to be provided with external actuators.

[geekmaster]

Here is a video of it in action:

[youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swmGaGT8lvs[/youtube-hd]

It does look like a basic TENS/EMS unit, complete with similar adjustment knobs.

[EdZ]

More info on their website. Turns out the current system relies on your other arm to provide the counter-force, not just agonist muscles in the same arm. Disappointing.

[tcboy88]

I had the same idea of using TENS to stimulate gun shot in FPS game
stick TENS all over your body, and relay the controller box to game output

However, I think TENS is dangerous to stick near to heart area.

[VRus]

I had the same idea of using TENS to stimulate gun shot in FPS game
stick TENS all over your body, and relay the controller box to game output

However, I think TENS is dangerous to stick near to heart area.

you have got me thinking to buy me a bunch of TENS and hook them up to
my Arduino board, volunteering myself to be Guinea pig in the name of VR

thanks for warning about the heart though!