Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

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Sevan
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Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Sevan »

I've been lurking on these forums for a while, and found many interesting threads. However, many of the game related ones always center around either virtual realities, or FPS games. Personally, I'm a BIG RPG fan. Final Fantasy, Tales series, etc etc.

So, Companies, (or some random people) are going to eventually make RPGs and MMORPGS specifically for the oculus rift (and other future headsets) that use a mixture of head tracking, hand tracking, and an immersive, first person (or hover camera 3rd person), 3d virtual environment. (I want to say like .hack, but people have different views on such things, however .hack is currently more realistic in the next few years as opposed to something like SAO, in .hack they used a Playstation Controller :lol: )

As you all know, many things are coming out, such as the leap motion, the (already released) razer hydra, etc.

There is one thing that I ponder consistently, but can't come to a conclusion.

Let's start at the beginning; RPGs are all about roleplaying* your character in a different world. So, we want to feel immersed in the experience, but what truly defines immersion? In .hack and Snow Crash, they were immersed in the game, as to where it felt like second nature to them, but they didn't really feel like anything was actually hurting them, besides the people that got hacked, but to them it was still a truly immersive world.

So, is it safe to assume, that we as human beings, don't require full 5 sense immersion, to feel immersed in a world?

I used to play Phantasy Star: Universe a while back, and I tried my dad's vixia headset, and zoomed in first person. Of course, the technology at the time was a distant screen surrounded by black :lol: , but it really felt like I was part of the action. When I talked to people, it felt like I was talking to real people (which I was), but actually them, not just their avatars. :)

If we have a degree of emotional interaction and connection with people in the game, we don't need full 5 sense immersion, we just need to be close enough that we can have emotional connection, through audiovisual cues, and through having a common space/thing to do.

So, with that in mind, we don't need a complete body suit with 200* sensors, we just need some standard device, not too expensive, everyone can use, that works.

After some research, there are 3 options that I can see:

1) Standard gamepad (perhaps xbox controller with keyboard attachment)

2) Leap motion (this one is interesting, read more below)

3) Razer Hydra (preferably a wireless version)


The standard gamepad is of course, standard, and while you get used to it, I feel it would eventually make VR just a cool monitor. :|

The leap motion however, is something completely different. If you take a look at the oculus, there is a giant empty space on the front, and since there is no camera there, it would take simple tape/removable adhesive/mount attachment to put the leap motion on the front. From there, (assuming you were playing standing for 360 turning) it could pick up your hands as you hold them out infront of you, using your right arm to swing your sword, and your left arm to block with your shield (for example). This does come with limits however, as it only picks up what is in a 2foot cube INFRONT of the sensor, if you were to do anything behind, it would not pick it up, and most people will not spend extra money on an extra sensor, or set up a mirrored room just to play a game. Also, it would have no way to detect forward motion without look down at your feet, or using your hands to walk.

The Razer Hydra however, solves some of these problems, but creates new ones. Currently, the hydra is more expensive than the leap motion, and only usable for gaming (For the most part) while the leap motion is usable for many fields, most likely meaning it will get more independent support from random people. I took some time with the Hydra MotionCreator software, and it is very limited. However, I also was looking at tf2 with the hydra, using analog motion controls (where you move the hydra moves your characters hands) and find this very promising. If the RPG/MMO had analog motion direct support, it would make a 1v1 duel for example, feel real time. And you could do things such as put it behind your back to sheath your sword, etc. Also, you could use the joystick(s) for motion. To some people, this might feel less realistic, however when you are playing BF3 or or perhaps fear 3 on your computer, you feel in the environment, no matter how you move. Like someone said on these forums:
When I move in real life, I don't think about how to move my legs to get there, I think "Ok, walk that way, watch out for the ice, turn right, open the door."
So, all signs point to the hydra, however, it has one BIG flaw. It is wired, and the only place you would be able to use an extension cord (Besides custom made) is from the base to the computer, and even if you had an extension for the controllers, you would get wrapped in wires by the time you finished kiting the final boss of the dungeon. Razer has said nothing, or at least very little, about a wireless hydra 2 anytime soon. (I believe when the original was in beta there was lots of lag issues.) Which is where the leap motion would shine. I am soon getting the razer hydra to do some tests with portal 2, tf2, and whatever other games will have native support in the near future. However, I'm going to wait on the leap motion.

I'm not a developer, (went to camp for UDK development :D )but this is what I think. As of now, gaming motion gloves and neuron readers aren't very good, (although I did have an idea for a razer hydra DIY glove, but you might as well just hold it.)

So, any thoughts?
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Kirito »

a .hack vrmmorg game for the ocolus rift would make me the most happy man in the world ^^
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Tbone »

Your title is a little misleading, but I think you are wanting feedback on which controller set up would be the most immersive for RPGs, yes?

I'm having a similar debate as to which controller to get. A part of me wants to just wait until the Rift comes out (waiting for consumer version) in the hopes that there will be a new controller made specifically for the Rift, but another part of me wants to take the next year or two to slowly build my setup so that I'm ready for the Rift when it is released instead of taking a big hit to my pocket all at once.

One big thing to note about the Hydra is that it is also tethered to a base. It can only be used within 3 feet of the magnetic ball, and that is not enough of a playing space for 360 degrees of playing, wire or no wire. So it actually has a similar problem to the Leap Motion in that you'll have to always use it while facing the same direction. You won't be able to look to the left, point the Hydra to the left where you're looking and fire (or sword slash). You'll have to look left, point the Hydra forward where you are NOT looking and try to aim that way, which is going to feel very weird.

There are two makeshift solutions to this. One is to tether aim to where you're looking, which kinda ruins the point of having a Hydra. The other is simply to use the analog to adjust your character's shoulders to face forward to where you are looking (so that you are looking straight again) before you attack, which seems highly inefficient.

So the Hydra vs. Leap Motion. I'd say for gaming, Hydra. Why? Analog stick. As much of a PC gamer as I am, WASD is going to be difficult on the Rift. How would you use the Leap Motion to walk forwards/backwards/left/right. I can't think of a good way JUST using the Leap Motion. To me it seems that the Hydra will be better for gaming while Leap Motion will be better for virtual desktops and interfacing.

So for RPGs, get the Hydra. Your best bet (and the direction I assume they'll take) is that your aim will be tied to where you look while your direction of walking will be controlled with the analog (so looking left has you aim left but not walk left). You won't be aiming much with the Hydra - more doing sword slashes and the like.

I'm hoping a controller comes out soon that gives us 360 degrees of playing, though, that doesn't require a whole freaking suit and half my bank account. I'd love to be able to look around in a virtual space, aim a device, and shoot without having to worry if I'm within 3ft of my magnetic ball.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by twofoe »

but another part of me wants to take the next year or two to slowly build my setup so that I'm ready for the Rift when it is released instead of taking a big hit to my pocket all at once.
What I'm doing is setting up an "Oculus Rift fund" :lol: There's already $300 in it, and I'll be adding more as the months pass by. Whenever something shiny captures my attention I'll go "nope, that money can be better spent in the fund." When the consumer Rift comes out, I'll use all of the money collected to buy the best system I can afford.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Sevan »

I guess I'm looking both for people's thoughts on the controller, but also, would you feel truly immersed without complete running IRL to run in game etc?

Tbone wrote: I'm hoping a controller comes out soon that gives us 360 degrees of playing, though, that doesn't require a whole freaking suit and half my bank account. I'd love to be able to look around in a virtual space, aim a device, and shoot without having to worry if I'm within 3ft of my magnetic ball.
Hopefully there will be something or someone that Oculus partners with to provide this experience, that isn't too pricey.

Also, If you place the base of the hydra about chest level near the edge of your desk (secured of course :D ) you could use it 360, as long as you don't extend too far. However, in the heat of the moment, this would be impractical because of adrenaline, excitement, and posibility to fall over wrapped in cords. :lol:
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Tbone »

Yeah, your arm's length is around 3 feet, so if you extend in any direction other than towards the ball, you'll go too far.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by geekmaster »

Tbone wrote:Yeah, your arm's length is around 3 feet, so if you extend in any direction other than towards the ball, you'll go too far.
You can reach behind the ball, so if it is mounted next to your waist, you get pretty much 360 degrees of freedom.

For example, notice the "waist mounted hydra base" in this video:

[youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c31uEclufss[/youtube-hd]
Last edited by geekmaster on Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Sevan »

geekmaster wrote:
Tbone wrote:Yeah, your arm's length is around 3 feet, so if you extend in any direction other than towards the ball, you'll go too far.
You can reach behind the ball, so if it is mounted next to your waist, you get pretty much 360 degrees of freedom.

For example, notice the "waist mounted hydra base" in this video:

I watched that video not too long ago :mrgreen: it would solve the problem of 360 motion, and in a way, the length of wires. A few problems/questions though:
  • How do you keep it attached to you without having a whole strap jacket.
    How do you keep it upright? (Assuming it needs to be upright to work properly)
    Unless mounted on your chest, if you extend your arms fully up, it wouldn't read them. However, if it was mount on your chest, you would look like iron man, except with wires hanging out.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by geekmaster »

Sevan wrote:I watched that video not too long ago :mrgreen: it would solve the problem of 360 motion, and in a way, the length of wires. A few problems/questions though:
  • How do you keep it attached to you without having a whole strap jacket.
    How do you keep it upright? (Assuming it needs to be upright to work properly)
    Unless mounted on your chest, if you extend your arms fully up, it wouldn't read them. However, if it was mount on your chest, you would look like iron man, except with wires hanging out.
It may be possible to use a "hook and loop" mount on a belt clip / L-bracket to support the hydra base, but unless you extend the hydra USB cable overhead (perhaps with a hub for increased distance), you will need a "backtop" computer to run it.

Also, Garry's Mod now has Kinect support with fairly accurate skeletal mapping, that is pretty low latency as you can see here (notice the FPV kick sequence at 2:32):

[youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKDRcHab ... xnwwe8n3Xw[/youtube-hd]

Although the Kinect still has some limitations, the latest SDK has huge improvements in lowering latency, and could be great WITH a body-mounted hydra when using sensor fusion (for greater range and better arm postioning accuracy, and for the hydra joysticks)... :P

It may also be useful to add a tripod mount to the bottom of the hydra base, per these instructions:
http://voices.yahoo.com/how-tripod-moun ... tml?cat=46
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by WiredEarp »

@ Tbone:
Yeah, your arm's length is around 3 feet, so if you extend in any direction other than towards the ball, you'll go too far.
Thats not actually true. I use my Hydra fine for standup VR. I have the emitter mounted on the desk immediately in front of me, so when standing naturally facing that direction the controllers are closest to it. Even when I turn 180, holding my hydra gun naturally, I am still getting good tracking.

None of the current solutions are close to what is important. The Leap may be better for immersion, simply because it should be able to represent your fingers accurately in VR (wiggling virtual fingers are an immersion boost). However, the Hydra seems like it will be better for all round 360 degree tracking, and has two independent sensors, so it wins for me. However, the Hydra be greatly improved by pairing with a glove a some kind. Also, adding vibration is a good simple way to increase immersion.

However, it seems what we are talking about is not what title is about. Are we going to discuss hardware tools tools to implement immersive VR, or are we talking about hand controllers, or about new RPG and VR game ideas? I certainly think that VR RPG games will be the new WOW of the wave beyond this one...
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by LikeMike »

I actually believe you can get great immersion with a gamepad... All motion controllers in my eyes are still pretty gimicky in a way, that you have to think how to use them while you are using them and that they won`t always work as you think. What you would need is a controller, that allows you to move your hands free and to be able to see your hands in the game in real time (and not some hectic, unnatural movements) - and as long as that`s not there, I don`t think those controllers really help you. And they won`t help you with movement at all, so you will still need a stick (or depend on something like moving where you are pointing). And don`t forget that as far as I know games don`t support that so far - independent hands movements that is not tied to the camera - because there is no need for that and no real controller for that.

To be fully immersed in a game you don`t have to physically do the things you do - the controls just have to feel completely natural to you. So seasoned computer gamers who don`t have to think about the controller should have no problem to really feel like they are in the game. The visual and audio is way more important if you ask me - once the Rift fully arrives (with great support from game companies), hardware studios (perhaps also Ocolus) will think about great controllers that are geared directly towards the Rift - and game devs will not only include Rift support but also support for that controller - then we can talk about motion controllers that truly helps the immersion. Until then, I guess I´ll stick to the gamepad.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by PasticheDonkey »

not sure of the OPs question really.

are 2 senses enough? better than nothing and there's plenty i wouldn't want to smell. tech to stimulate the other senses is so far behind that this is the best thus far so enjoy it.

the nature of RPGs and control there of. RPGs stem from pen and paper games where the characters abilities would be abstracted into numbers and die rolls. the personality of the character would be up to the player. so traditionally using a gamepad would be fine. now the lines blur between action games with RPG elements and RPGs with action elements. contrast say dragons dogma mass effect and skyrim. all have character customisation. all require aiming. but DD requires more action game skill. than mass effect or skyrim. skyrim being the least. other RPGs are turn based or control like RTSs taking even less action skill.

now the point is there isn't a control method for RPGs and the only controller immersion is relative to the action in the game. and even then things like analogue sticks and buttons could be preferred to motion controls.

it comes down to matrix vs holodeck for action. test yourself your physical limits or just your dexterity/mind. if your lacking in dexterity and mind control then you'll have to stay away from action for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Mystify »

LikeMike wrote:I actually believe you can get great immersion with a gamepad... All motion controllers in my eyes are still pretty gimicky in a way, that you have to think how to use them while you are using them and that they won`t always work as you think. What you would need is a controller, that allows you to move your hands free and to be able to see your hands in the game in real time (and not some hectic, unnatural movements) - and as long as that`s not there, I don`t think those controllers really help you. And they won`t help you with movement at all, so you will still need a stick (or depend on something like moving where you are pointing). And don`t forget that as far as I know games don`t support that so far - independent hands movements that is not tied to the camera - because there is no need for that and no real controller for that.

To be fully immersed in a game you don`t have to physically do the things you do - the controls just have to feel completely natural to you. So seasoned computer gamers who don`t have to think about the controller should have no problem to really feel like they are in the game. The visual and audio is way more important if you ask me - once the Rift fully arrives (with great support from game companies), hardware studios (perhaps also Ocolus) will think about great controllers that are geared directly towards the Rift - and game devs will not only include Rift support but also support for that controller - then we can talk about motion controllers that truly helps the immersion. Until then, I guess I´ll stick to the gamepad.
This is my sentiment too. The key to immersion is not to try to mimic real motions, but to make the interaction as unnoticeable as possible. Sure, an ideal motion tracker that lets you translate every motion into the game would be great for immersion, but most of the control schemes I see batted around on here seem more unnatural. I don't feel like performing motion gestures is natural, but they are also so involved they aren't as reflexive as hitting a button. Most of them just strike me as being very clumsy.
For a RL example, look at driving a car. You make it go by pressing a pedal, stop with a different one, and steer by turning a wheel. This is not even remotely similar to walking around normally, yet these controls still become automatic. You don't have to think about it, you simply treat the car as an extension of your self.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Sevan »

Mystify wrote: This is my sentiment too. The key to immersion is not to try to mimic real motions, but to make the interaction as unnoticeable as possible. Sure, an ideal motion tracker that lets you translate every motion into the game would be great for immersion, but most of the control schemes I see batted around on here seem more unnatural. I don't feel like performing motion gestures is natural, but they are also so involved they aren't as reflexive as hitting a button. Most of them just strike me as being very clumsy.
For a RL example, look at driving a car. You make it go by pressing a pedal, stop with a different one, and steer by turning a wheel. This is not even remotely similar to walking around normally, yet these controls still become automatic. You don't have to think about it, you simply treat the car as an extension of your self.
I see what you are saying about using a regular gamepad. I Like the razer hydra currently because you can use it as a gamepad, with some movement. I did fencing IRL for a time and so to me it's natural to swing a sword or lunge etc. Where as other people probably find it somewhat awkward. The hydra gives you best of both worlds imo, cause it has all the buttons you would find on a regular gamepad, if you want to use it like one.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by LikeMike »

I get what you are saying Sevan - and I actually believe swinging a sword/pad would feel natural to most people - but (and that is a huge but) a lot of things still break the immersion:

1. You don`t see your hands/sword move 1to1 - there is always a slight lag (as far as I know) and the tracking is not perfect. So when your hands/arms don`t do exactly the same as you are doing in real life, you won`t feel immersed
2. You don`t get any feedback. If you hit someone the sword on the screen will stop, while you keep going - and again your alter ego on the screen is doing something different than you are doing.
3. Cables or receivers will prevent certain kind of movements...

Swordfighting will always be difficult to get right because of the second reason. But gunplay or let`s say casting magic, all that sort of things are possible if you can get the 1. reason right (no lag and a perfect translation of your motions to the motions in game). Perhaps in the near future we can perfectly aim with our right hand (perhaps a gun controller?) and move with a simple nunchuk-stick in our right - or use gloves or something like the leap to use our hands to do all kinds of things. But as long as the immersion gets broken easily by one of the 3 reasons I gave above, I think regular controllers are the better bet.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Mystify »

If you can get motion tracking on your arms to perform tasks that are directly mimicked, then it can work. So, firing a gun via a motion controller can work just fine. Swinging a sword has problems, as mentioned. Its mainly when you get into arbitrary gestures that effectively map to a button press that it gets silly. I saw someone mention wiisis, a version of crysis with wiimtoe commands to do things, and it sounded awful to me. doing a motion command to throw a grenade will not feel right unless your throw is properly being mapped, and even if you are properly translating the motion into the throw, the lack of feedback will throw it off. The lack of a heft to a virtual grenade, for instance.
Really, anything that makes the controls more awkward to perform is going to take away from immersion. Motion control will work when the motions are natural, and we will benefit from them when the possibilities of what you can do with them exceeds what pressing buttons can do. Motion tracking opens up a wide range of possible actions, but so long as you are simply reading in your fixed set of actions to trigger specific events, it will just be a cumbersome way to press a button.
One possibility that has been mentioned is using something like the leap to do 3D modeling in vr. That is the type of use where you see a real benefit. The motions you make would have meaning for what they are, not as a workaround to an existing action, and you would be able to do things much easier than you would otherwise.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Sevan »

Mystify wrote: Its mainly when you get into arbitrary gestures that effectively map to a button press that it gets silly.
Ya, many games use the gestures as a button press, however the games that currently have native support for razer hydra (portal 2 and Tf2, hopefully soon l4d2) are quite natural.

In the video, you can see that wherever the hand moves, the portal gun moves with it. I see what you say about how the sword in game stops, and you might keep moving, but I'm sure that would be considered on the game development side, as opposed to our side.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtIB3O8XkUg[/youtube]
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by WiredEarp »

@ Mystify:
doing a motion command to throw a grenade will not feel right unless your throw is properly being mapped, and even if you are properly translating the motion into the throw, the lack of feedback will throw it off. The lack of a heft to a virtual grenade, for instance.
Actually, while I agree that it will not feel 'right', I think that it will still add significantly to the immersion. Of course, it will require a glove, not a hydra, or it will be too easy to accidentally let go and throw the hydra :), but I think that being able to trace a path with your hand and have it detect the speed and path will greatly increase our accuracy with grenades. That in itself, in addition to having the basic throwing motion, will add immersion.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Mystify »

WiredEarp wrote:@ Mystify:
doing a motion command to throw a grenade will not feel right unless your throw is properly being mapped, and even if you are properly translating the motion into the throw, the lack of feedback will throw it off. The lack of a heft to a virtual grenade, for instance.
Actually, while I agree that it will not feel 'right', I think that it will still add significantly to the immersion. Of course, it will require a glove, not a hydra, or it will be too easy to accidentally let go and throw the hydra :), but I think that being able to trace a path with your hand and have it detect the speed and path will greatly increase our accuracy with grenades. That in itself, in addition to having the basic throwing motion, will add immersion.
I am pretty sure that motion control will detract as long as it is within the uncanny valley. Tracing your path and speed doesn't really help when you are tracing the wrong path because you lack the tactile feedback of the grenades heft. For thinks like using the hydra in portal, you get past the uncanny valley due to the nature of what you are doing, but most things won't get past it, and will detract. Its like how a HMD doesn't really work until you get the FOV high enough and the tracking smooth enough. If its bad, it is just distracting.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by WiredEarp »

Hmm, I can't find it right now, but I'm pretty sure there was already a shooter on the PS3 that I was reading about where the reviewer reckoned using the PS Move to throw the grenades was a significant forward step in grenade throwing accuracy and feel. That doesn't necessary equal immersion however, but I wonder if the 'uncanny valley' is so applicable to proprioceptive sensations anyway. For example, when using the Z800, it was actually better, and didn't detract from the immersion, to multiply my turning movements - so by turning 180 degrees I was really turning 360 degrees. While it might not have felt like reality, it certainly felt real enough that the turning was still an immersion boost. I wouldn't get too hung up on virtual senses like weight etc, I think you'll find people will figure out the 'virtual weights' quickly and learn how to throw things with decent accuracy etc. The fact is, you are still reaching for a virtual grenade, pulling it back, and using a throwing motion to throw it, all of which boosts immersion - the lack of virtual weight, while it will help, is a problem that is still a long way off being solved IMHO.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by cybereality »

The Novint Falcon can provide weight to objects (I think up to 10 lbs.), and its actually pretty cool.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by PasticheDonkey »

WiredEarp wrote:Hmm, I can't find it right now, but I'm pretty sure there was already a shooter on the PS3 that I was reading about where the reviewer reckoned using the PS Move to throw the grenades was a significant forward step in grenade throwing accuracy and feel. That doesn't necessary equal immersion however, but I wonder if the 'uncanny valley' is so applicable to proprioceptive sensations anyway. For example, when using the Z800, it was actually better, and didn't detract from the immersion, to multiply my turning movements - so by turning 180 degrees I was really turning 360 degrees. While it might not have felt like reality, it certainly felt real enough that the turning was still an immersion boost. I wouldn't get too hung up on virtual senses like weight etc, I think you'll find people will figure out the 'virtual weights' quickly and learn how to throw things with decent accuracy etc. The fact is, you are still reaching for a virtual grenade, pulling it back, and using a throwing motion to throw it, all of which boosts immersion - the lack of virtual weight, while it will help, is a problem that is still a long way off being solved IMHO.
yeah people don't have a problem with bowling or bocce for example in wii sports and sports champions.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by PasticheDonkey »

cybereality wrote:The Novint Falcon can provide weight to objects (I think up to 10 lbs.), and its actually pretty cool.
limited sphere of influence tho. you can't lob something with it cos it's got limited range.
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Endothermic »

Maybe Mystify is just using "detract" in the wrong content to how he means ?

Since by saying throwing a grenade with motion control will "detract" from immersion because it doesn't have tactile/weight would mean that doing that is less immersive then if you just press a button on a contoller for the action to be performed which is just wrong since even just using the wiimote in an arc to throw something feels more immersive then pressing a button for it to happen since you are actually performing an action.

It would detract from the level of immersion added if it did have weight to it as well, but doing it without the weight still adds immersion over not doing it at all and just pressing a button for the action to happen.

Like the wii bowling comment above, even though there is no weight, just swinging you're arm back and forth to throw the bowl is alot more immersive then just pressing and holding a button for a couple of seconds and releasing it to throw the bowl, as you are physically performing the action (even if it's not completely accurate) that you are expecting to do and appear to do in game rather then just touching a button with you're thumb to tell the game that's the action you want to do.
Sevan
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Sevan »

I agree, things like the falcon gave good feedback, however it's not necessary because what we our brain thinks and what is actually happening is different. Take kinect sports for example, my mother and her brother had ongoing table tennis matches because they both wanted to win. These are 2 people who would never willingly pick up a video game in their life, but even just swinging your hand and seeing your character on the screen swing gives them a level of immersion high Enough that it makes them feel like they just won a game of real table tennis.
WiredEarp
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by WiredEarp »

I think you have nailed it Endothermic, we are probably just getting caught up in the semantics.

I agree Sevan, VR enthusiasts and experts in the past have said how immersive it is simply to have a VR hand that follows your hand.

@ CyberReality: the Falcon seems awesome really, but I just dont see it as being useful for stand up VR applications. However, I'd love to try using it with just a HMD and independent aim in something like L4D...

IMHO, the next step is something like the Falcon - a device that uses robotic arm/arms to provide force feedback to us. It will need to be designed to either move around the user (to keep up with his turning), as an exoskeleton, or, it could be fixed if we have a walking solution, that will let us FEEL that we are turning, while we still keep our bodies in one orientation.
Mystify
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by Mystify »

I don't find the wii immersive at all, its just flailing around in front of a screen, and things happen that are vaguely related to what you did. I don't feel like I'm actually bowling in the least, nor actually golfing, or anything else. The general awfulness of the entire experience did far more to harm my immersion that "actually doing the action".
I agree that having a hand that follows your own would add to immersion. I don't think that most of the movement control schemes suggested would add to immersion once you pass "foot controller" until you get to something like "your motions map directly to the game and you can navigate normally". Nothing kills immersion faster for me than awkward controls, and most of the control schemes are extremely awkward in an attempt to be immersive.
virror
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Re: Oculus made RPG's, What is "Immersion?"

Post by virror »

WiredEarp wrote:IMHO, the next step is something like the Falcon - a device that uses robotic arm/arms to provide force feedback to us. It will need to be designed to either move around the user (to keep up with his turning), as an exoskeleton, or, it could be fixed if we have a walking solution, that will let us FEEL that we are turning, while we still keep our bodies in one orientation.
Already in works it seems: http://www.novint.com/index.php/novintxio
video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV3j2Yxv7jY
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