I wasn't saying it was rubbish, just that it's impossible for a device that doesn't have access to the polygon x,y,z data to be as good as a device that does have access to that. It's not their device's fault, just a limitation of what the PC is outputting to other hardware.3Tree wrote:@2EyeGuy + @cybereality
From what I saw and heard, it seems to work as described (unlike other devices/TVs with a similar feature)...
Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift)
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Use TortoiseGit instead. It always asks which files you want to check in.brantlew wrote:Sounds great CyBer.
My only experience with open-sourcing is with the FreePIE project. We had it first on SourceForge and then moved it to GitHub, but honestly so far I haven't liked GitHub as much. Admittedly this probably has mostly to do with my comfort level with CVS/Subversion versus my ignorance of Git, but I haven't found out yet what is so great about GitHub. For some reason I can't selectively synchronize/check-in individual files with Git (only the entire project) which is really annoying when I have partial development that I want uploaded. Also SourceForge has it's own forum tools built in which GitHub does not. Hopefully this post will get blasted with all the great things about Git, because I actually really want to know.
Yes, Git is a pain. Especially for the PC. But it has advantages for projects that aren't centralised or that have lots of experimental feature branches.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
I'll have to check it out. I'm not too fond of TortoiseCVS, but surely it's better than GitHub for Windows. They really dumbed down that product too much and it doesn't seem to give you control over anything. If there's one demographic that doesn't need dumbed down software it should be their target audience - software developers.2EyeGuy wrote:Use TortoiseGit instead. It always asks which files you want to check in.
Yes, Git is a pain. Especially for the PC. But it has advantages for projects that aren't centralised or that have lots of experimental feature branches.
(well maybe you need to dumb it down for web developers.) just kidding
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Congrats on the article Cyber. It was well written and struck some basic truths, the Rift is nothing without guys like you writing software for it. I agree you should charge even some token fee for your efforts. Even if you only support a few key titles well, you will have greatly increased the % of ready to go content for Rift adopters at launch.
"I did not chip in ten grand to seed a first investment round to build value for a Facebook acquisition."
Notch on the FaceDisgrace buyout.
Notch on the FaceDisgrace buyout.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
That's great news cyber! Will you stay on as maintainer and gatekeeper?
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
I'm really happy that you decided to open source your work. I wouldn't have had any issue with paying for it mind you, but I strongly believe that having a centralized open source project for this is best for the community overall.
Implementing good Rift support -- especially without source access and exclusively through injection -- requires a significant amount of work per-game, and with an open source project people with an interest in making different games work can learn from each other, and even pool resources to implement various reusable functionality. I'd be very happy to contribute.
And this news finally got me to register for an account here (I've been following the Rift on this forum since the middle of last year or so). Hi everyone!
Implementing good Rift support -- especially without source access and exclusively through injection -- requires a significant amount of work per-game, and with an open source project people with an interest in making different games work can learn from each other, and even pool resources to implement various reusable functionality. I'd be very happy to contribute.
And this news finally got me to register for an account here (I've been following the Rift on this forum since the middle of last year or so). Hi everyone!
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Completely agree with Durante. I was going to buy this driver, but it will require an entire community of people to get it running on all interesting games, so Open Source will make that much easier to handle. Source access for interested people could have gone a long way, but OSS is also a motivator to contribute to a greater extent. At least it is for me.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Welcome Durante.
@cyber: A lot of good points about this type of project being well suited for open sourcing. There are just too many games for 1 man to go it alone. My suggestion would be to structure the project in such a way that it is modular as possible so that contributors only need to work on details that pertain to the particular game they are trying to inject. I know that's probably easier said than done, but the more modular it is, the easier it will be for contributors, and the more titles that will be added.
@cyber: A lot of good points about this type of project being well suited for open sourcing. There are just too many games for 1 man to go it alone. My suggestion would be to structure the project in such a way that it is modular as possible so that contributors only need to work on details that pertain to the particular game they are trying to inject. I know that's probably easier said than done, but the more modular it is, the easier it will be for contributors, and the more titles that will be added.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
@Cyber
When doing something creative the journey is most often far more interesting than the destination.
It's great that you share your work like this and i hope it will grow bigger!
When doing something creative the journey is most often far more interesting than the destination.
It's great that you share your work like this and i hope it will grow bigger!
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Is there any word on whether or not you will add support for Metro 2033/Metro: Last Light? It would be the only reason I would buy the Oculus Rift or the driver support.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Metro 2033 is supported by my VorpX driver. This is only tested with the demo and an nVidia card so far though. So this isn't 100% official info, don't order the Rift because of this post. An official list will be released around the time the first batch of the Rift devkit ships, maybe even before that.
Judging from the first minutes this games seems to be a perfect fit for the Rift, but if it were for only one single game, I would think twice about buying a devkit. It's called devkit for a reason.
Judging from the first minutes this games seems to be a perfect fit for the Rift, but if it were for only one single game, I would think twice about buying a devkit. It's called devkit for a reason.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
@zino: Of course I will be here on the forums to help people out if they decide to contribute and are confused about something. And I will probably make some contributions early on (for example adding Rift tracker support when the SDK becomes available). But I won't be taking an active roll in the continued development.
@brantlew: The code is pretty object-orientated, and each game/engine has its own class file. The common stuff is in the base classes. So people could be working on different games and probably not run into too many conflicts.
@gray: Nice! At least they reported on the open-source news and didn't just copy-paste from the original article.
@Likay: Yeah, thanks.
@loserspearl: Metro is not supported at the moment, but I guess it could be possible if people want to put the effort into it.
@brantlew: The code is pretty object-orientated, and each game/engine has its own class file. The common stuff is in the base classes. So people could be working on different games and probably not run into too many conflicts.
@gray: Nice! At least they reported on the open-source news and didn't just copy-paste from the original article.
@Likay: Yeah, thanks.
@loserspearl: Metro is not supported at the moment, but I guess it could be possible if people want to put the effort into it.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Bulletstorm is a great game that's probably easy to support that would look awesome.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Wow, cool move CyberReality. This will really help the Rift out as soon as it is released IMHO.Vireio Perception will now become free open-source software!!!
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
If you won't accept straight donations will you at least accept someone setting up some way for people to collectively buy a gift, like a new GPU or something?
I'm not sure you realise that at launch like 90% of the Rift compatible software will be due to you!
I mean come on! Mirror's Edge in VR! This is Nobel prize territory!
I'm not sure you realise that at launch like 90% of the Rift compatible software will be due to you!
I mean come on! Mirror's Edge in VR! This is Nobel prize territory!
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Although I'm a bit shy about giving any date for now, I'd like to say that this might not be necessarily true.Chrikry wrote:I'm not sure you realise that at launch like 90% of the Rift compatible software will be due to you!
About the donations: I would also support this. There was certainly a lot of work put into this, even if it supports only a handful of games, so it's definitely worth something.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Speaking of giving any date... when will you be releasing Vireio Perception? And when can we start helping with the code?MaterialDefender wrote:Although I'm a bit shy about giving any date for now, I'd like to say that this might not be necessarily true.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Any chance of pants shitting VR in system shock 2?
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Yes, with VorpX and the freely available System Shock II DX9 patch.Any chance of pants shitting VR in system shock 2?
SSII support for Vireo Perception might be added in the future, of course, if someone does it.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Great
I wonder how many cases of PTSD will be reported because of the rift and arma 2 though...
I wonder how many cases of PTSD will be reported because of the rift and arma 2 though...
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
For sure, before the end of the month. Maybe sooner, stay tuned.2EyeGuy wrote:Speaking of giving any date... when will you be releasing Vireio Perception? And when can we start helping with the code?
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
@Cyber
You must keep "Donate" option, this is your hardwork and should be appreciated by all those who benifited from it. at least who wish to acknowledge it in a way.
Another Tought:
Why don't you charge minimal amount may be 10 or 15 $ or even less if you feel support is for less titles and you don wan't full time backing it still it covers some of best VR titles like MIRROR'S EDGE and its worth it.
Collectively it will sum up good if not make you super rich but i strongly feel hardwork should be paid.
You must keep "Donate" option, this is your hardwork and should be appreciated by all those who benifited from it. at least who wish to acknowledge it in a way.
Another Tought:
Why don't you charge minimal amount may be 10 or 15 $ or even less if you feel support is for less titles and you don wan't full time backing it still it covers some of best VR titles like MIRROR'S EDGE and its worth it.
Collectively it will sum up good if not make you super rich but i strongly feel hardwork should be paid.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
I'd recommend a min donation of $5, since more people are inclined to donate that way.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
I would absolutely donate Cyber; you deserve compensation. Don't undervalue your time!
Additionally it would be great to have a "vote with your money" facility to drive game compatibility. People would select (or suggest) a game and then make a donation/pledge. Once a developer has added support for a game, they receive the donations tied to that game.
Additionally it would be great to have a "vote with your money" facility to drive game compatibility. People would select (or suggest) a game and then make a donation/pledge. Once a developer has added support for a game, they receive the donations tied to that game.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
What about offering games to Cyber using the gift option on Steam ?Mart wrote:Additionally it would be great to have a "vote with your money" facility to drive game compatibility. People would select (or suggest) a game and then make a donation/pledge. Once a developer has added support for a game, they receive the donations tied to that game.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Donate to support certain games needs to have more levels i think. Usually when making a "basic" wrapper with a game there will be a certain amount of anomalies. I can imagine that different developers will make wrappers of different qualities. Timespan also matters since one person could release compability for a game with a lot of anomalies which later is fixed by another person. Some games today are often updated which could break compability and constantly needs maintenance. I think it's all doable though, there are just some extra things to keep in mind to be fair to the contributors.
@Cyber: For peoples ability to sleep and keep peace in their minds you should definitely add a way to donate. It doesn't necessarily have to be connected to the above mentioned donationsystem.
@Cyber: For peoples ability to sleep and keep peace in their minds you should definitely add a way to donate. It doesn't necessarily have to be connected to the above mentioned donationsystem.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Can't remember if I said this already but I'd definitely still be happy to pay!
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
This is my kind of guy right here . Metro 2033 is amazing and would be unreal in 3D. I just wish they'd slow down the walking speed, its basically a run.loserspearl wrote:Is there any word on whether or not you will add support for Metro 2033/Metro: Last Light? It would be the only reason I would buy the Oculus Rift or the driver support.
Metro 2033 3D screens - Mass Effect 1 3D scenery - High FoV 46" Sony 3DTV
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Hi 3Tree, interesting project. I watched the videos and this guy seems like a true 3D enthusiast. However I've looked into (supervised) 2D to 3D conversion before and I'm skeptical.3Tree wrote:Will we be able to turn off the 3D option and utilize just these features? I wanted to be able to use your driver with this upcoming device in the future:cybereality wrote:In particular, it will pre-warp the image to match the Oculus Rift optics, handle custom aspect-ratios (needed for the Rift's strange 8:10 screen), and utilize full 3DOF head-tracking.
http://www.fundable.com/3-dvision
The problem is, even though a 2D image contains a lot of depth cues (parallax, scale, shapes, focus, color saturation, brightness, etc), and even if the computer should get a perfect 3D solution (almost impossible), it still has to fill in a lot of information that is simply not present in the 2D image. And to do all that real time... (movies would be easier as they can be processed and buffered in advance)
Check out the two videos here, they explain the process well: http://www.yuvsoft.com/products/2d-to-3d-conversion/
My guess it that he uses these same techniques and just throws a lot of processing power at it, look at the size of that hardware. The results might be good, perhaps even surprisingly good. However he mentions that it doesn't have to be perfect because our brain corrects for errors. But with the Rift's massive field of view I'm not so sure our brains would be that forgiving.
And with his credentials and proven record, if he really has come up with a revolutionary device, why did he have to turn to a fundraiser webpage?
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Thanks for the link; I'm checking it out right now.voliale wrote:Hi 3Tree, interesting project. I watched the videos and this guy seems like a true 3D enthusiast. However I've looked into (supervised) 2D to 3D conversion before and I'm skeptical.3Tree wrote:Will we be able to turn off the 3D option and utilize just these features? I wanted to be able to use your driver with this upcoming device in the future:cybereality wrote:In particular, it will pre-warp the image to match the Oculus Rift optics, handle custom aspect-ratios (needed for the Rift's strange 8:10 screen), and utilize full 3DOF head-tracking.
http://www.fundable.com/3-dvision
The problem is, even though a 2D image contains a lot of depth cues (parallax, scale, shapes, focus, color saturation, brightness, etc), and even if the computer should get a perfect 3D solution (almost impossible), it still has to fill in a lot of information that is simply not present in the 2D image. And to do all that real time... (movies would be easier as they can be processed and buffered in advance)
Check out the two videos here, they explain the process well: http://www.yuvsoft.com/products/2d-to-3d-conversion/
My guess is that he uses these same techniques and just throws a lot of processing power at it, look at the size of that hardware. The results might be good, perhaps even surprisingly good. However he mentions that it doesn't have to be perfect because our brain corrects for errors. But with the Rift's massive field of view I'm not so sure our brains would be that forgiving.
And with his credentials and proven record, if he really has come up with a revolutionary device, why did he have to turn to a fundraiser webpage?
I would love to test that for myself if I could, but let's hope it will work!
He mentions that he uses some concepts from holography to help with the conversion. He also stated that he was using the fundraiser to start the initial funding and as part of a contest. Although he didn't choose a winner (I'm thinking the reason why has to do with Hurricane Sandy since he mentions that their office took a lot of damage from the storm) and claims they are working with investors to get the funding for the rest of the engineering on a smaller product as well as advertizing ..etc and that they will implement the technology into TVs soon.
These two videos will likely explain his methods better than I can:
1st http://youtu.be/tGKBihSoleg
2nd http://youtu.be/AlWckIQNncs
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
From a 2D image only it's most probably impossible, but from a succession of 2D images it's somewhat feasible, but not in realtime though.voliale wrote:The problem is, even though a 2D image contains a lot of depth cues (parallax, scale, shapes, focus, color saturation, brightness, etc), and even if the computer should get a perfect 3D solution (almost impossible), it still has to fill in a lot of information that is simply not present in the 2D image.
Thanks to epipolar geometry there is a lot of 3D information that can be infered from 2 or more images of the same scene viewed at different angles. This can provide a mathematically correct 3D representation of the scene, much better than the luminance-infered depth or manual reconstructions used in most 3D conversions, which are mostly hacks.
Have a look at this video, it's the best example I know of automatic 3D reconstruction from a 2D video :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyPtNlGnQqk[/youtube]
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
That looks quite impressive for a reconstruction based on nothing than color information at first. it's clearly the most simple case possible though. A lateral camera move around a fixed point of view in a scene without any foreground objects. That has basically a depth matte baked in over time. With some motion estimation and a little bit of advanced guesswork it shouldn't be too hard to extract it. Not many lucky cases like this exist unfortunately when it comes to real footage.
Looks still nice, of course. No doubt about that.
Looks still nice, of course. No doubt about that.
Last edited by MaterialDefender on Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Not too shabby. It helps though that the footage is a perfect candidate for conversion.Fredz wrote:From a 2D image only it's most probably impossible, but from a succession of 2D images it's somewhat feasible, but not in realtime though.voliale wrote:The problem is, even though a 2D image contains a lot of depth cues (parallax, scale, shapes, focus, color saturation, brightness, etc), and even if the computer should get a perfect 3D solution (almost impossible), it still has to fill in a lot of information that is simply not present in the 2D image.
Thanks to epipolar geometry there is a lot of 3D information that can be infered from 2 or more images of the same scene viewed at different angles. This can provide a mathematically correct 3D representation of the scene, much better than the luminance-infered depth or manual reconstructions used in most 3D conversions, which are mostly hacks.
Have a look at this video, it's the best example I know of automatic 3D reconstruction from a 2D video :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyPtNlGnQqk[/youtube]
The yuvsoft software I linked actually uses this same technique, along with several others. Still takes a lot of work to clean it up. Also, background reconstruction.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
I must have missed that part, do you remember in which video (and at what timecode, as the videos are very long) he said that?3Tree wrote:He mentions that he uses some concepts from holography to help with the conversion.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Yeah, this scene is quite perfect for this kind of algorithm, but it's still a lot more complicated than what it looks like, even if it's not really evident from this video. They use several state of the art techniques in computer vision and they are able to compute the 3D parameters of the camera for each frame to enforce the epipolar constraint, so it's not a simple depthmap extraction in 2D from panning images.MaterialDefender wrote:it's clearly the most simple case possible though. A lateral camera move around a fixed point of view in a scene without any foreground objects. That has basically a depth matte baked in over time.
Also it should work correctly with freely moving camera, even if it's limited to scenes with not too much moving parts, which is still a big limitation. But at its basis it's a feature correspondence problem, so it's completely independent of the scene structure and foreground objects shouldn't be a problem at all (they show an example with a tree in the middle of the screen in their paper).
They recently added this dense depth recovery technique to their automatic camera tracking project (ACTS), which was already able to compute 3D reconstructions, so it may be even better now. Unfortunately I didn't find videos showing that, but the software is freely available so I may try it eventually.
They use a depth from motion implementation as part of the process, but I don't think it's anywhere near the complexity of the algorithms used by this technique. In their case it looks a lot more like a simple depth estimation from a panning camera without geometrical knowledge about the scene.voliale wrote:The yuvsoft software I linked actually uses this same technique, along with several others. Still takes a lot of work to clean it up. Also, background reconstruction.
In their video they even don't show it on a filmed scene but on a 3D rendered scene, with only two single shots of blurry depth maps, which makes me seriously doubt they have anything near the sophistication of what I posted.
And by judging the different 3D conversions I've seen, it seems 3D conversion companies are still very far from what is done in the computer vision research field.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
That sounds interesting, would be great to see results with more complex scenarios.
By the way: 3d reconstruction in post can be near perfect. Not automatically though. The process involves hand painted depth mattes, a lot of time consuming rotoscoping and deep pockets to pay for that. I recently saw a presentation by a rotoscoping artist demonstrating this. About three hours of extremely tedious manual work for a shot a few seconds long. The result was pixel perfect, but the amount of time and money this consumes is hard to swallow even for mid-size productions.
By the way: 3d reconstruction in post can be near perfect. Not automatically though. The process involves hand painted depth mattes, a lot of time consuming rotoscoping and deep pockets to pay for that. I recently saw a presentation by a rotoscoping artist demonstrating this. About three hours of extremely tedious manual work for a shot a few seconds long. The result was pixel perfect, but the amount of time and money this consumes is hard to swallow even for mid-size productions.
- cybereality
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
Even manual conversion is not great (though better than most commercial automatic processes). Just look at the hollywood movies that spent millions on the conversion and the results are sometimes very poor.
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Re: Introducing Vireio Perception (3D Driver for Oculus Rift
I was hoping you would find it since they gave a lot of information lol.voliale wrote:I must have missed that part, do you remember in which video (and at what timecode, as the videos are very long) he said that?3Tree wrote:He mentions that he uses some concepts from holography to help with the conversion.
Here we go: http://youtu.be/AlWckIQNncs?t=27m30s
The whole video is a great watch though and he talks about the rotoscopy method and the lenticular method, what's good/bad about them..etc.
Also, here are a few quotes from one of the articles:
http://www.killerstartups.com/bootstrap ... vel-again/Why did you choose crowdfunding?
We need funding to be able to mass-produce and market and sell the product. The conventional route, which I’ve done before, is you go to investors and you make a presentation to them, you put together a business plan, you raise some private money, and eventually you go public and sell the stock on the stock market. I’ve done all that before.
And if you don’t raise the money do you think you’ll go the traditional route?
Well, I am still going the traditional route already. We already have our business plan… We started in December. We’ve been looking around, talking to potential investors and that’s how I found the Fundable guys. They have an investment membership organization called the Go Big Network and I’m part of that. The idea there is to be introduced to their investors. They tell me they have 20,000 investor members of that company.
I am going that route and I will continue doing that unless I don’t need to."
And a bit more (although vague) info on the tech:
http://www.socaltech.com/gene_dolgoff_s ... 44318.htmlCan you talk a bit about your technology, and how it's different from other, 3D technology out there?
Gene Dolgoff: There are basically three kinds of 3D converters, besides ours. One is the manual technique, which uses rotoscoping, which requires a graphic artist to sit at a workstation, and convert frame-by-frame into 3D. To convert a single, full length movie, that takes hundreds of graphic artists, four months, and five to 15 million dollars. That's only good for blockbuster movies, and that's prohibitive for television. There also automatic converters. There are two kinds besides ours. One is really fake, and is the "simulated 3D" that most converters use, which essentially offsets different lines on the screen different amounts, which makes a picture look like it has different depth. It doesn't have any correlation to the real depth in the scene. The second kind uses something which are called depth maps, which are algorithms that assign different properties to different depths, for example, you might look at the brightness of an image to try to determine depth, which has a little more do to with actual depth and is more accurate. The problem there, is it requires lots more computing overhead, and requires a much bigger, more expensive machine. That usually causes lag, and that's prohibitive when you're playing a game.
Then, there is our system. Our system uses a different technique, based on the study of the human brain over the past 40 years. We look at two frames at a time, and look at all the 3D factors. You'll notice that most of the time, more depth means a scene has differences in brightness, contrast, and color saturation, and are higher in the frame. Plus, when a camera moves back and forth, the slower and object is, the further back it is. All of these factors are taken into account, and we get an image which is stereoscopically aligned with the algorithm in our brain. The workload of our computing is greatly reduced, and lots of this is done in the human brain. The actual depth information is detected and placed in a lot of the areas of the scene. It's not the actual depth, but when the brain sees actual depth in the areas, it fills in the rest of the missing depth information in the area, by remembering its previous 3D experience. That's how this is able to create good, 3D with accuracy, yet with low compute overhead.
Last edited by 3Tree on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.