Just a few questions for everyone here :)

[T3rra]

Okay, so I'm back, no I didn't die out lol...
Few questions, hopefully you guys can help me with...

-How far are you guys when it comes to wireless capabilities? Like wireless Rift, Palmer whats the low down on wireless capabilities? I noticed you had a wire on the Rift, unless I was looking at the wrong picture D: either way if it's not how much weight/how much bigger will the Rift be with it on?

-With the rift and it's software/hardware, is there a feature which allows you to split one view (suppose you were playing COD co-op) to 1, the Rift, and 2nd player to your tv? (thought of this last night, thought it was a nifty feature if it's at all possible) what I mean is, just enlarging the 2nd player to your tv so that he can play with one screen, and you on the other with the rift......sounds possible?

-How is this going to affect multiplayer? I know this might sound crazy, or not who knows, but suppose you and your friends all bought the Rift, and I'm going to assume you connect via cables to your pc/console? how are games going to handle multiple users? is a new console going to have to be made? I can't wait for wii/ps3 controller compatibility , how can the consoles handle more than 1 player?

- I forgot who posted this vid a while back, but it was a guy with a PS move controller on his head, walking around in an open area (basketball court?) I dunno, but I was curious, if he created a war esque map, why not map his own room/house? I mean that way he could walk around in his living room no? Once again, harder than I think it is? is the problem with the wireless functions?

I'm gonna start focusing my efforts on drawing now, do more research on paintball arena's and what not, and wireless signals and what not, the old stuff, but I'm definitely wanting a Rift lol... ah well, too bad my laptops poo lol.... oh well, I STILL LOVE YOU GIRL lol...

I've got more probably, but to move forwards I need the answers to these questions
Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[ChrisP]

I'll take this one guy's.


wireless capabilities are a bad idea for a few reasons.
1. it will increase production costs
2. it will increase HMD weight
3. it will increase latency (low latency is very important for Immersion)
when it comes to size. not much but weight. easily 50-100g depending on battery size.


playing a FPS with good graphics and 2 players on the same pc is very demanding on hardware and for best results with an HMD you need at least 60fps you would be better of just having a small LAN game with two PC's and hook the HMD up to the beefier one.
now if you are just asking if it is possible to have the PC send one video signal to the HMD and different video signal to a different display even a different HMD yeah it possible. its the same thing as having two displays connected to a single PC. people do it all the time.

now when it comes to the console side of things there's some good and some bad you see a console's are poop compared to PC's
so graphics are gonna take a hit so the frame-rate stays nice and high. connecting more then one HMD to a console not possible you would need at least 2 video out's each with a different signal dedicated to an HMD. now the good thing is console's are cheap and when good HMD support hits them you and your buddy's just have to bring your console's and a router for a good oldschool lan party WITH HMD's!! so no more parents bitching WHERE THE HELL IS THE LIVING ROOM TV !!??

now the guy with a controller strapped to his head. dont got an answer for ya there sorry.

[T3rra]

I'll take this one guy's.


wireless capabilities are a bad idea for a few reasons.
1. it will increase production costs
2. it will increase HMD weight
3. it will increase latency (low latency is very important for Immersion)
when it comes to size. not much but weight. easily 50-100g depending on battery size.


playing a FPS with good graphics and 2 players on the same pc is very demanding on hardware and for best results with an HMD you need at least 60fps you would be better of just having a small LAN game with two PC's and hook the HMD up to the beefier one.
now if you are just asking if it is possible to have the PC send one video signal to the HMD and different video signal to a different display even a different HMD yeah it possible. its the same thing as having two displays connected to a single PC. people do it all the time.

now when it comes to the console side of things there's some good and some bad you see a console's are poop compared to PC's
so graphics are gonna take a hit so the frame-rate stays nice and high. connecting more then one HMD to a console not possible you would need at least 2 video out's each with a different signal dedicated to an HMD. now the good thing is console's are cheap and when good HMD support hits them you and your buddy's just have to bring your console's and a router for a good oldschool lan party WITH HMD's!! so no more parents bitching WHERE THE HELL IS THE LIVING ROOM TV !!??

now the guy with a controller strapped to his head. dont got an answer for ya there sorry.

-sigh- I wish we were closer to free roam VR everything wouldn't feel so far away then....
Thats always good to hear, you said PC's can handle 2 players, one screen goes to the HMD and the other to the screen of the tv.
lol I wish I had someone who I could relay my ideas to and work with me P: ah well....

You confused me on the second part, what do you mean bring your console and router (dunno much about computer hardware or terms :/) and free up the tv? could you please explain D:

As for the wireless parts,.... obviously it's going to increase costs and weight, but by how much?
too noticeable? Putting a wireless transmitter and receiver on the HMD and having it transmit over a small play space? maybe like 300ft+? (suppose you set up a console with wireless receivers/transmitters in the distance, and you nearby playing a game of football/ hack and slash survival) can anyone explain this part to me?

Hey cyber, if you're reading this, any new info on body tracking? do you still need to wear like a bajillion arm and leg trackers? have those prices gone down?

What about wireless signals? I got my theory from cell phones in the city, how an antennae receives thousands of signals and relays them at the speed of awesome lol, with the problem being if there are too many signals, the relay slows down, kinda like frames/sec...
that was in my original thoughts, if you could have a receiver in the HMD receiving wireless signals from the arm and leg pads, controller and whatever else.... is that possible right now? (not to mention the HMD then relaying the combined signal from a few hundred feet away ((for starters)))

LEME KNOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW <3 :3

[EdZ]

PC's can handle 2 players, one screen goes to the HMD and the other to the screen of the tv.

Yes, but even a Big Grunty Gaming PC will have trouble essentially running two games at one time. Stick to outputting one player's view per PC. Two players, two PCs.

As for the wireless parts,.... obviously it's going to increase costs and weight, but by how much?

Cost: £100+ going by current prices of wireless high-resolution video transmitter/receiver pairs. Weight? Negligible if you clip the transmitter to the belt along with the Rift's control box.

too noticeable? [lag, I assume]

Current wireless video technology is not optimised for minimal latency. Some technologies claim sub-ms transmission delays, though I haven't seen any independent tests.

Putting a wireless transmitter and receiver on the HMD and having it transmit over a small play space? maybe like 300ft+?

Think closer to 20ft for current COTS equipment.

if you could have a receiver in the HMD receiving wireless signals from the arm and leg pads, controller and whatever else.... is that possible right now?

It sounds like you;re talking about time-of-fight sensing. That's pretty expensive, with off-the-shelf systems being a few tens of thousands at the cheap end. Krenzo is working on a lower cost system, but it's still in the prototype stage, and I'm not sure how many simultaneous sensing points he can theoretically scale up to.


As for current consoles? You can pretty much forget about it. Next gen? Too early to tell, anything said would be pure speculation.

[T3rra]

PC's can handle 2 players, one screen goes to the HMD and the other to the screen of the tv.

Yes, but even a Big Grunty Gaming PC will have trouble essentially running two games at one time. Stick to outputting one player's view per PC. Two players, two PCs.

As for the wireless parts,.... obviously it's going to increase costs and weight, but by how much?

Cost: £100+ going by current prices of wireless high-resolution video transmitter/receiver pairs. Weight? Negligible if you clip the transmitter to the belt along with the Rift's control box.

too noticeable? [lag, I assume]

Current wireless video technology is not optimised for minimal latency. Some technologies claim sub-ms transmission delays, though I haven't seen any independent tests.

Putting a wireless transmitter and receiver on the HMD and having it transmit over a small play space? maybe like 300ft+?

Think closer to 20ft for current COTS equipment.

if you could have a receiver in the HMD receiving wireless signals from the arm and leg pads, controller and whatever else.... is that possible right now?

It sounds like you;re talking about time-of-fight sensing. That's pretty expensive, with off-the-shelf systems being a few tens of thousands at the cheap end. Krenzo is working on a lower cost system, but it's still in the prototype stage, and I'm not sure how many simultaneous sensing points he can theoretically scale up to.


As for current consoles? You can pretty much forget about it. Next gen? Too early to tell, anything said would be pure speculation.

What about working with the ps2 and 2nd gen consoles? I mean sure it'll suck graphically, but I certainly wouldnt mind running around as Tidus from FFX, sure it's no master piece but if modified properly wouldn't you be able to render an entire area to play in? maybe mod some enemies from other games and have them attack you and stuff lol.... could certainly help with the multiplayer parts of HMD's.... know what I mean? I think it would be cool....

What I meant about multiplayer with PC's is.... you know how COD has multiplayer co-op? why couldn't the first player screen be sent to the HMD and the other to your tv (I'm gonna assume some cables/software is going to be needed, right?) this way you both could play, and not just one on the rift (it's a pretty lonely system lol....) I dunno, again I'm pro multiplayer, but I'm pretty sure they're working on that anyways....

as for the rift control box? what do you mean by that? does it include wires? I was asking because I want to know if wireless interaction between the HMD and a console/PC is possible ( 300ft+, or larger, depending on the environment/ paintball arena)

So this dood Krenzo, is he able to get the body tracked using one sensor per arm/leg? I've seen one before, but this guy wore 2 per arm/leg, which is a bit tedious, especially if someday you'd be playing in a paintball arena/"playgrounds" having to put them on and off might turn some players off you know? I still remember cyber showing me that dude talking about how body tracking is real difficult at this point in time, I think the answer is in in game physics and mechanics, but what do I know, probably more advanced than that....

[EdZ]

What about working with the ps2 and 2nd gen consoles?

No. The consoles don't even have digital video outputs!
Emulation? Faintly possible but highly unlikely. Modification of FoV for PCSX2 has been explicitely ruled out by the devs, and it's likely that most games would fail miserably if you tried anyway, due to hardcoded speedhacks based around a known rendering resolution and FoV.

What I meant about multiplayer with PC's is.... you know how COD has multiplayer co-op? why couldn't the first player screen be sent to the HMD and the other to your tv (I'm gonna assume some cables/software is going to be needed, right?) this way you both could play, and not just one on the rift (it's a pretty lonely system lol....) I dunno, again I'm pro multiplayer, but I'm pretty sure they're working on that anyways....

I know what you meant. The problem is rendering two simultaneous veiwpoints with sufficient performance (minimum 60fps), and the answer is 'probably no'. It's a lot easier simply to have one PC per player, and network them.

as for the rift control box? what do you mean by that? does it include wires?

Check the Kickstarter page, there are photos of it there.

I was asking because I want to know if wireless interaction between the HMD and a console/PC is possible ( 300ft+, or larger, depending on the environment/ paintball arena)

If you want 300ft low latency high resolution wireless video, be prepared to pay a few thousand at least. Consumer systems to do this do not currently exist, and I'm not sure there'll even be a market for them for quite some time.

So this dood Krenzo, is he able to get the body tracked using one sensor per arm/leg? I've seen one before, but this guy wore 2 per arm/leg, which is a bit tedious, especially if someday you'd be playing in a paintball arena/"playgrounds" having to put them on and off might turn some players off you know? I still remember cyber showing me that dude talking about how body tracking is real difficult at this point in time, I think the answer is in in game physics and mechanics, but what do I know, probably more advanced than that....

It's a prototype time-of-flight tracking system. Body tracking isn't really on the cards yet.
There are various methods for whole-body tracking. The Kinect is cheap, but latency is too high and it's not the most accurate thing if you move outside of a small area. Strapping a bunch of IMUs to your limbs does not have the range issues, but you lose absolute positional tracking, and rely on having a perfect skeletal (and muscle, for non-rigid joints like the spine and neck) model to track correctly, and are expenseive due to the sheer number of units needed. Optical marker systems with the required accuracy (e.g. Vicon) are not cheap, running a few hundred per camera, and requiring an enclosed space surrounded by cameras to get good results (though the results are excellent).


What you seem to want, something you can plug into an xbox and track you running around a forest playing virtual pinball, is a combination of "doesn't exist" and "outside the price range of anyone not pulling in a few hundred thousand a year".

[mahler]

What you seem to want, something you can plug into an xbox and track you running around a forest playing virtual pinball, is a combination of "doesn't exist" and "outside the price range of anyone not pulling in a few hundred thousand a year".

Which should never discourage anybody from trying though

If something doesn't exist, invent it. Study physics to learn if something is theoretically possible, study electronics and all available gadgets to come up with a cheaper solution, study programming and use smart algorithms to test your ideas.

You could always stick to technologies you do know about and create content for that.

[T3rra]

What you seem to want, something you can plug into an xbox and track you running around a forest playing virtual pinball, is a combination of "doesn't exist" and "outside the price range of anyone not pulling in a few hundred thousand a year".

Which should never discourage anybody from trying though

If something doesn't exist, invent it. Study physics to learn if something is theoretically possible, study electronics and all available gadgets to come up with a cheaper solution, study programming and use smart algorithms to test your ideas.

You could always stick to technologies you do know about and create content for that.

thanks for that, I currently feel like crap when it comes to VR, paintball arenas and body tracking and wireless functions, so I've shifted my focus onto video game playthrough and comedic commentary (more like.... thought provoking commentary about life and VR lol..... when I get some episodes up I'll post them on youtube xD

I just wish it was as easy as you make it out to be :/ I dunno, I don't have any of those skills :/ maybe I'm really lazy :/ -sigh- I don't know anymore >_<

thanks ....

[cybereality]

The Rift itself is not wireless. It has a fixed cable going to the control box, and then detachable cables on the box for video/usb/power. You could buy a wireless video transmitter, there are a number of them, however most of them seem to be line-of-sight only with limited range (50-100 feet) and may not work well if you are moving around. One of the better ones I think is the ASUS WAVI, since it has wireless USB also on it (for the headtracker, etc.). Again, I am not sure these will work great for a full-freedom setup, but its something to look into.

In terms of playing mulitplayer games, just setup a LAN. Each person gets their own computer and their own display (Rift, etc.). In general, you can only have one full screen game running an a single PC at a time. I know the computer could technically handle it (ie with older games), but the games are not created to do this. On top of this, the way Steam works (and some games) they detect if you try to open multiple of a game and deny it. I have seen instances of people doing it with windowed games, but that wouldn't work for an HMD. You need full-screen.

[T3rra]

The Rift itself is not wireless. It has a fixed cable going to the control box, and then detachable cables on the box for video/usb/power. You could buy a wireless video transmitter, there are a number of them, however most of them seem to be line-of-sight only with limited range (50-100 feet) and may not work well if you are moving around. One of the better ones I think is the ASUS WAVI, since it has wireless USB also on it (for the headtracker, etc.). Again, I am not sure these will work great for a full-freedom setup, but its something to look into.

In terms of playing mulitplayer games, just setup a LAN. Each person gets their own computer and their own display (Rift, etc.). In general, you can only have one full screen game running an a single PC at a time. I know the computer could technically handle it (ie with older games), but the games are not created to do this. On top of this, the way Steam works (and some games) they detect if you try to open multiple of a game and deny it. I have seen instances of people doing it with windowed games, but that wouldn't work for an HMD. You need full-screen.

as for the wireless video, since body tracking doesn't work.... I figure perhaps just a controller and a magnet/fixed in game effect for the hands, so you can wave your "sword" controller around and have the magnet feature on... and I guess for now forget about body tracking, if I could walk around as Tidus and be mindful of other players around me, I don't think I would care if you could map my arms/legs or not

I mean look at PS2 games, and I'm not just talking about Final Fantasy, look at games like Crash Bandicoot for the PS2, I wouldn't mind living in his world, and seeing him rendered in all his ps2 glory, sure I bet the software wouldn't allow that, you would have to modify the game itself/create a new engine/modes/menus for the new game to work.... where the hell are the programmers here?! I mean working with ps2 commands/scripts, that should be easy enough, the ps2's been around since god knows when, I'm sure (and I've seen some video mods on FF8/7) where you can move the characters around. I'm not saying create a new engine/game, but modify the ones already present. But theres the problem of running 2 characters on different screens for one console.... right? I really don't think this should be hard to do, I'm sure there are ps2 mods out there right now, all you would have to do is create new HMD menus and functions then find a way to have 2 in game screens running at the same time.........

Anyways getting away from the point, like I was thinking earlier, I wouldn't mind seeing crash instead of some highly designed character from a ps3 game, I just think even though they are less serious than other characters/evolved, Crash still has this cute vibe about him that makes it worth not having to "play" with a ps3 generated character, remember the saying "Just because a game is graphically cooler, doesn't make it better" God knows how many people have said this, I mean poop, look at the SNES vs the 64 bit ...... atari was it? those games were graphically superior but sucked balls.....

Another thing, whats the deal with cell phones? (newer ones with compasses, 6dof and gyro's) I mean why the hell couldn't you modify a cell phone into a controller? I mean the old ones too not even new ones, or if you had to, just remove some of the parts, then modify it to be a controller..... if distance is such an issue then it could still work in doors with friends, just buy HMD's and hook them up to the new "4 in 1 PS2" console..... which is just 4 ps2's connected and running together..... might fry something right? anyways back to the cell phone theory, just connect an antennae to a 4 in 1 console and play. Is that possible? then you wouldn't have to worry about distance for the wireless signals, just...... what would you have to worry about? conflicting signals? lag? microwaves? 800/1900 frequency interference? once again, not as easy as I think it is or what? Fine, keep the wires, but ...... for now..... >_<

-sigh-.........

[EdZ]

I mean working with ps2 commands/scripts, that should be easy enough

Oh, but it were so. PS2 emulation is a complex and fickle beast (e.g. just trying to thread out one section of the processing pipeline requires an intimate knowledge of how the machine works).

and I've seen some video mods on FF8/7) where you can move the characters around.

You may be thinking of the PC version. There's a thriving community at QHIMM modifying the PC version of FFVII.

I'm not saying create a new engine/game, but modify the ones already present.

Frankly, recreating the game environment in a new engine probably would be easier than attempting to reverse engineer, modify then bugfix existing PS2 games. There are programs that allow you to pull model and texture right out of the DirectX buffer, so that would cut down on some of the modelling load. I for one would love to be able to just walk around the environments in FFXII, even without a functional UI. But I severely doubt modification to the game engine would be possible, given the weirdness you can get just from changing the rendering resolution (let alone FoV, head tracking, stereo, etc).

Another thing, whats the deal with cell phones? (newer ones with compasses, 6dof and gyro's) I mean why the hell couldn't you modify a cell phone into a controller?

Some people have tried using the iPhone as an IMU, but run into some bugs with getting the tracking data to the PC in a timely manner, with minimal lag. I'm not sure if anyone's tried with an Android phone. It'd be cheaper to buy a dedicated 9-axis sensor than even the cheapest mobile phone, though.

[cybereality]

There is really no benefit in trying to make homebrew VR for consoles (certainly not the PS2), when you could do something on the PC which is a lot more open, a lot more powerful, and way easier to get something up and running. You also just have a lot more resources for the PC with available game engines (like Unity) or even open source projects (OGRE) that make your life a whole lot simpler.

[T3rra]

to Edz:

-shrug- I suggested the ps2 because I thought there are already a large number of people who might have programming experience with it since, well..... -shrug- it's an older system? maybe more people have already worked on it? I dunno just thought it would help.

and those are the groups that I am talking about, we just need some to work on First person views and creating worlds using existing software/games. Are there those typa guys here that are working on that?/ programmers with these typa hobbies?

As for environments, going back to what I said; using the program you've mentioned, create a "house" (for starters) in which you could move around in using the map packs of a ps2... I'm sure there are designers out there reading these posts........ I remember back when a user gave me a box house to use, that was pretty neat, I wonder if he considered ps2 models?

Thanks for the input Edz

To Cyber:

I was just talking graphics, if not on a ps2, then anywhere, so long as the graphics are fine-ish, 2006 graphics. I just said that because if there WERE a way to get multiple users on one console/PC I would be all for it, what about taking a badass pc and running 4 players on it using a 2006 game like Quake or whatever? I'm just saying, multiple users on one tower/pc/console using 2006 graphics and running it from there. Multiplayer! Rift! lol....

[PalmerTech]

I was just talking graphics, if not on a ps2, then anywhere, so long as the graphics are fine-ish, 2006 graphics. I just said that because if there WERE a way to get multiple users on one console/PC I would be all for it, what about taking a badass pc and running 4 players on it using a 2006 game like Quake or whatever? I'm just saying, multiple users on one tower/pc/console using 2006 graphics and running it from there. Multiplayer! Rift! lol....

Why not just run four computers from 2006, then? Almost certainly cheaper, and definitely easier.

[T3rra]

I was just talking graphics, if not on a ps2, then anywhere, so long as the graphics are fine-ish, 2006 graphics. I just said that because if there WERE a way to get multiple users on one console/PC I would be all for it, what about taking a badass pc and running 4 players on it using a 2006 game like Quake or whatever? I'm just saying, multiple users on one tower/pc/console using 2006 graphics and running it from there. Multiplayer! Rift! lol....

Why not just run four computers from 2006, then? Almost certainly cheaper, and definitely easier.

HAHA! I GOT YOU TO AGREE!!!!! XD gotta pat myself on the back >:)

anyways, yeah, thats what I was thinking, a new console that can run up to 4 games at a time, only problem is including that into the rift package, plus all the hardware, I like to think I wanna keep the HMD and the Tower plus a few other pieces below 400$ I can't say 600 is appealing to gamers, I mean look at what happened to the ps3 on launch :/

But, then it would be 4 graphics cards, plus the processors, plus the rift, ah whatever, I'll look into it, what do you think le palmer?

[PalmerTech]

Even a single computer capable of running Rift games well will probably cost more than $400, at least today. Running four Rifts off of the same HMD means four times the hardware power, or games that look four times worse.

If it was possible to make a computer four times as powerful as a low end gaming machine for less than $400, believe me, someone would have done it.

[greenlantern]

Hey, just stumbled over this post....

I have actually used the ASUS WAVI to make a portable VR setup. It consisted of:
- Asus WAVI (mounted to belt)
- Old laptop Battery as power supply (also mounted on belt)
- Cinemizer OLED with HDMI
- Cinemizer Headtracker (using the WAVI wireless USB)

The results were ok....
The latency on the Video feed was almost non existent. That really surprised me! So I think there is hope for WHDI!
The Tracker streaming unfortuneatly was a little choppy... This is probably, because the WAVI streams the USB data over a WIFI TCP/IP connection. This can't keep up with the Headtracker putting out new values every 5ms.

But it was quite awesome playing FPS completely wireless and spinning around in my room when somebody was behind me!
So, thats my 2 cents....