Any idea why ATI does not turn out stereo drivers?

Post by **DDuckMan** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:57 pm

Is there a hardware compatability problem, or does nVidia have some sort of copywrite/patent protection? Or, are they simply not interested?

Post by **Freke1** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:16 am

I post in a forum where there is an ATI guy also. I'll give him a pm and ask. I'll post the answer here.

Post by **Likay** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:10 pm

It would certainly be great if stereo could be invoked on every front! If ATI also give it a try to catch up stereo then it feels like it's about to really get going!

One other thing: Isn't the cartoon movies nowaday modeled and renderend in 3d as well? Like all recent Pixar movies? Would it then be difficult to rerender them into stereo? Just curious.

Post by **Freke1** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:27 am

I got this answer from the ATI guy:

"I believe it is because the regular Radeon cards do not have the hardware feature to suppor this. There are some that do however, I recall the FireGL series as having this.

Another reason of why they aren't doing this is not also because of lack of hardware support, but its also because of lack of popularity. Time is money, and if it ain't popular, developers aren't going to spend time to implement it."

EDIT: before we jump to any conclusions in hast: All I know about this guy is that he plays BF2 well and works for ATI. I have no idea in which department he works. Could be marketing, shipping...

Post by **Likay** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:52 pm

Freke1 wrote: Another reason of why they aren't doing this is not also because of lack of hardware support, but its also because of lack of popularity. Time is money, and if it ain't popular, developers aren't going to spend time to implement it."

Well, I think we all believe it's time for a little change!

For now it feels like the ball is rolling. If it turns out well nothing will stop stereovision in a soon future.

Post by **DDuckMan** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:02 pm

Freke1 wrote:I got this answer from the ATI guy:

"I believe it is because the regular Radeon cards do not have the hardware feature to suppor this. There are some that do however, I recall the FireGL series as having this.

Another reason of why they aren't doing this is not also because of lack of hardware support, but its also because of lack of popularity. Time is money, and if it ain't popular, developers aren't going to spend time to implement it."

Interesting. I never would have guessed it was partly a hardware issue. It makes me a little grateful to nVidia for keeping up the effort. Making harware that supports stereo and putting out drivers, even if only once or twice a year, I'm sure is no small task considering the small audience.

However, the 8800 stereo drivers thread has an encouraging almost 2000 views in a relatively new forum. Most people interested in stereo3D are pobably locked in to buying relatively high end cards exlusively from nVidia (like I have been since I got my Revelators). Perhaps it helps their bottom line a little.

Post by **dr_barnowl** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:34 am

Given that 2000 * $200 is $400,000 , I'd say that it's certainly not small potatoes. Of course, I'm not implying that views = users.... but I'm sure that there are at least 2,000 people who would be swayed into choosing nvidia over ATI if the 8800 drivers supported stereo.

I just ordered a pair of shutter glasses only to realise that my card doesn't support them. Which annoys me. I'd use my old card... but it's an ATI 9800.

Badger sputum.

Freke1 is right - time IS money. Conversely, I'm sure $400,000 could buy enough time to develop a stereo driver - what does a developer cost? Even a total prima-donna?

Logically speaking, it can't be that hard... the core of it is surely just proving a frame sync signal and moving the viewport between frames. I understand that things like the laser sight and such are more difficult though.

It would be interesting to know what the hardware feature is that the ATI cards lack - is it to do with frame syncing? Because as far as I can see, the rest can be done in software. Or is it support for quad buffering (which AFAIK is needed for stereo because you need two buffers for each eye)?

Post by **Likay** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:57 am

My eDimensional glasses were delivered with ed's own drivers. In the manual it says it works with ATI but if you have Nvidia you should use those. You can also check their site. Though i think that ATI-cards will also support stereo with the proper surrounding drivers.

But of course: I'm only guessing there.

BTW: Here's the link to ed's support. Maybe the drivers will works for you even if you might not have ed-glasses. It's a longshot but you might want to give it a try.

https://edimensional.com//support_updates.php

get this one: " Proprietary ATI/Universal Drivers Version 4.25 (works on any video card)"

Post by **dr_barnowl** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:22 am

They've not arrived yet, so I've not had a chance to try them out.

Alas, I suspect that I'm going to be out of luck because I'm running Vista and an 8800.

- The Vista display driver model is rather different to XP, so I expect the eDimensional drivers won't work.
- There are no native stereo drivers for the 8800 series yet (that work, anyway).

I shall have to wait and hope that the driver support comes in. The latest release notes say that

- They've fixed the stereo support, in the Quadro drivers. I'm not sure what hardware differences there are in the Quadro cards though.
- That they can't windowed Quad Buffered Stereo in Vista. Since most people want fullscreen QBS that's sort-of encouraging, because at least they aren't saying they won't support QBS at all.

Of course, what with the brouhaha about Vista support for the 8800s, I'm sure 3D-S support is the last thing on their minds

Post by **Likay** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:47 pm

Ok. Wrongfully i thought you had an ATI-card. And you're probably right about the Vistacompability. But i do hope they find a way around though. Regarding myself i'll stick to XP for quite some time more. Also waiting for the 8800 stereodrivers but i think they should show up asa the nvidia developers got some spare time. 8)

Post by **Nihility** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:48 am

Likay wrote:
Freke1 wrote: Another reason of why they aren't doing this is not also because of lack of hardware support, but its also because of lack of popularity. Time is money, and if it ain't popular, developers aren't going to spend time to implement it."
Well, I think we all believe it's time for a little change! For now it feels like the ball is rolling. If it turns out well nothing will stop stereovision in a soon future.

Don't you think that the biggest reason 3D stereo isn't popular is because LCDs don't support it?

CRTs are all but dead, getting a decent one is becoming harder and harder and the benefits of LCDs for office work will probably keep driving the old monitors out.

Post by **DDuckMan** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:40 am

I think so too (discussed in another thread). If a product is to be widely successful, it needs to be accessable to everyone. As it is, you need to do much more research to get it running than the average person is willing to do. I am mainly referring to incomplete game support and work-arounds, and assuming working drivers.

When you add that stereo requires a special monitor, most people will not bother. Most people already find the inconvenence of finding and wearing a special set of glasses too much. Every little restriction or requirement excludes a few people.

Heck, even I have my limits. I can wander through forums and websites looking for ways to get a game running and spend all kinds of time trying to locate a good, refurbished, out of production CRT just for stereo. When my CRT dies, I probably won't get the two layer sereo LCD monitor as it only comes in one resolution and doesn't look as clear with text. I don't see me setting up a projector in my office or using a mirror set up either. If nothing changes, my best shot at stereo in the future is a projector set up \ home theater in the basement. That, however, is not really a solution for the masses.

For stereo3D to truly be popular, it needs to work on the common viewing device (I am rooting for SED). The drivers and games need to work with very little input or tweaking. And any required accessory needs to be widely known, available, and inexpensive (ie sitting on a Best Buy shelf). None of these are really true right now. The industry really needs the pressure and support of consumers and goups like this to improve the situation.

I see this as a low point in stereo 3D much like the auto industry was in the 70s, with some very promising technology in the works. In a while we should have stuff available that smokes even the venerable CRT. I can't wait for the anti-lock brakes, fuel injection, and low profile tires of the stereo 3D industry.

Post by **Neil** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:34 am

Hi Dduckman,

I agree that in the long run, there needs to be S-3D solutions for different markets. Just like there is a 7300 for one market, and an 8800 series for another.

However, when it comes to technologies like this that start off in smaller production quanities, I think it is understandable that the early adopters will be tech savvy game players who are willing to spend top dollar to get results.

I have to disagree with you that this is a "low point" in stereo. This is a "growth" point!

Our industry has a lot going for us now that we didn't have before.

1. The available hardware on the market is now fast enough to support S-3D technologies - and that hardware is available on a wider, more cost-effective scale than before.

2. NVIDIA is still developing drivers, and I think you wil see their work accelerate soon enough.

3. There are multiple well received solutions on the market - just read any CES article to learn about them.

4. Movies are being released in S-3D through RealD and Dolby Laboratories. When these movies are out on DVD, who do you think is going to benefit from the S-3D format????

5. Then, of course, we have MTBS. Keep posting in our advocacy sections, and you'll get those results. As the Crysis thread demonstrated, it took almost ZERO effort. So every day we delay posting, is another day we wait!

I firmly believe that what we consider a "special monitor" today will gradually become standard in a few years. However, niche market products will still be very successful.

Is the 8800GTX sitting on a Best Buy Shelf? Are CPU water coolers sitting on a Best Buy shelf? How many X-FI sound card versions can you find at Best Buy?

You hit the nail on the head about pressuring the industry. I try to use the word "advocate" more because pressure implies force - and that gets resisted, while "advocate" implies encouragement, and it's hard to turn that away.

Neil

Post by **DDuckMan** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:54 am

Neil wrote:Hi Dduckman,

I have to disagree with you that this is a "low point" in stereo. This is a "growth" point!

Neil

OK, maybe I am a little down because I have a new C2D, 8800 and widescreen CRT now but no drivers. Note that most of the technology you mentioned is still "around the corner". I'll concede that it is really more like the 80s than the 70s.