virtual reality controller for mouse movement

[powerjosl]

Hey folks,
so since I'll be getting the MRG 2.2 with the updated display from ido soon, I want to pitch my idea for a flight simulator setup. I got the trackir 5 for the head tracking, the MRG as HMD and my joystick and pedals for flight control.
Now the only thing missing, is a small controller that attaches to my left hand, to control the mouse cursor on screen, to press switches and turn knobs in the 3d cockpit in ms flight simulator. It doesn't really need to be a 3d input device. It just needs be 2d to control the cursor and have a button on it for clicking.
I remember I once saw such a thing years ago. It was pretty small, attached to the index finger and had two buttons on it that you could press with your thumb. It worked via IR I think.
Anyone know what I'm talking about? Or knows a different device that does something similar?
I'm not looking for a fancy VR glove, just something simple for my specific setup.

Cheers,
powerjosl

[mAchiNE]

you could use one of the Hillcrest Labs Freespace trackers, the USB one is very small and is compatible with their software for 6dof, but is plug and play as a mouse for 2dof which would work for waht you are wanting it to do, all you would need to do is fugure out a button.

They also have Bluetooth and WiFi versions.
I'm guessing you dont want a gyro mouse because you want the device to be small and attach to your hand?

Someone else might know of something similar with buttons already that would be better.

[cybereality]

That sounds familiar, but I'm having trouble finding anything that was commercially available. All I got was this:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/7293/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[powerjosl]

hm, that freespace stuff looks a bit over the top.
a giro mouse, like the one from logitech they sold a while a go would be way to big. something like cybereality posted, but I don't want to built anything myself.
I'm going to look into the kinect. maybe they figured out a way to track a hand into a mouse movement. that would be way more intuitive....

[powerjosl]

ok, so it looks like you can control a mouse with kinect, but I have the feeling the kinect and trackir are not going to like each other. both are based on infrared....

[powerjosl]

this is the smallest giro mouse I could find: http://www.strohmedia.de/product_info.p ... _id=476705" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[powerjosl]

what about the p5 glove, anyone used that before? seems pretty cheap for a vr glove.

[mAchiNE]

p5 glove is cool if you can find it but it is also using infrared emmiters/camera so might not play well with trackir.

[powerjosl]

damn it

[Johnny-Mnemonic]

p5 glove is cool if you can find it but it is also using infrared emmiters/camera so might not play well with trackir.

In theory it can influence trackIR, but for curiosity I tried such setup long time ago, and if I remember it worked ok.

[cybereality]

What about this:
http://www.geniusnet.com.tw/wSite/ct?xI ... ctNode=105" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mAchiNE]

cyber that link seems to be broken

[cybereality]

Works for me, but heres another link:
http://www.amazon.com/Genius-3103004810 ... B004RF52DO" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[powerjosl]

yeah, I saw those kind of "mice" but they all have in common that you're not moving your hand/arm. it's basically just a trackpad/mouse strapped to your finger. not very intuitive to be honest, especially if I want to press switches in the flight simulator cockpit quickly. then I could just keep a normal mouse on my desk, next to the joystick. would probably be more precise than a mouse attached to my hand that I'm trying to navigate with my fat thumb

[mAchiNE]

you could use the ring mouse Cyber linked to just for the buttons and use it in conjunction with this wireless 6dof tracker from hillcrest labs for motion control:
http://hillcrestlabs.com/products/frees ... rk-24g.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
might be a bit pricey but should do exactly what you are wanting and completely wireless too. Just attach it to a glove.

[cybereality]

The Razer Hydra can be used as an air mouse, but I don't know how you feel about holding that thing in your hand the whole time. P5 glove can also do this, but its for the right hand (not to mention the IR interference).

[mAchiNE]

@Cyber
I don't think the Razer hydra is what he is looking for, it seems he wants a small 2dof motion tracker with one or two buttons. As it is for a flight sim he needs to keep the underside of his hand free for using the flight controllers. This device is simply to control the cursor in game to press buttons etc in the virtual cockpit of the plane, but he wants something to make it more immersive by making it feel more like he is reaching out and pressing the buttons himself.

I think the Ring mouse you linked to could be used for buttons (can mount it on index finger and press buttons with thumb) and stick the wireless Hillcrest labs motion tracker ontop of the hand (maybe stick it onto a glove) this seems like the only plug and play option so far, the only other option I can think of would be to by a small gyration/air mouse and pull it apart and build the tracker from in into a glove, replacing the scroll wheel and 2 buttons with bend sensors in the fingers of the glove, if done right you should get a VR type glove, wireless, with one analogue finger sensor and to digital finger sensors, the bulk of the electronics could be mounted on the forearm if they are too bulky to fit on top of the hand.

[powerjosl]

well, looks like hillcrest labs is not shipping outside of the US. anyone got an idea how I can get this thing shipped to Germany?

[Okta]

First thing that came to mind, if you dont mind wired. Price is rite

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mini-USB-3D- ... 20b7b39e5f" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[powerjosl]

have you actually seen how those mice work? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAR89kweEis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

then I could just use a regular mouse....

[Okta]

Hmmm. Strap some leds to your fingertips and sit a wii controller on the table facing you, write a mouse script for glovepie with gestures for the leds. It could track them as a mouse and click when they touch together like when you pinch your thumb and pointing finger. That would be very cool, like raising your hand to operate the virtual cockpit switchs.

edit: i have seen a video similar to this somewhere.

[powerjosl]

pretty sure this will interfere with trackIR

[mAchiNE]

thats a shame about the Hillcrest Labs tracker not shipping outstid of USA! I also am wanting to get some of those in the nexts frew months. Did you try emailing them?
If they wont ship outside US then maybe someone here on the forum who is in the USA might help by letting you ship it to them, then them shipping it to you. Bit of a pain in the A#% though

[Okta]

pretty sure this will interfere with trackIR

Track IR will be pointed at your head, wii can be pointed at your hand.

[mAchiNE]

Otka if that would work ok then the P5 Glove would be better if he can find one (and can still use glove pie for custom scripts), no guarantee that they won't interfere with each other because LEDs for both devices are pointing from the user to cameras.

The Wiimote idea could still work if you mount the Wiimote on top of forearm and IR LEDs mounted behind track IR camera, that way there would be no interferience and then there are buttons on your arm (could possibly extend a few buttons down to fingers if needed), but then I supose you could just use the motion sensor of the Wiimote instead of IR camera for cursor movement Not exactyul ideal though.

[cybereality]

well, looks like hillcrest labs is not shipping outside of the US. anyone got an idea how I can get this thing shipped to Germany?

I can help you import to Germany. PM me if you're interested.

[Okta]

Otka if that would work ok then the P5 Glove would be better if he can find one (and can still use glove pie for custom scripts), no guarantee that they won't interfere with each other because LEDs for both devices are pointing from the user to cameras.

The Wiimote idea could still work if you mount the Wiimote on top of forearm and IR LEDs mounted behind track IR camera, that way there would be no interferience and then there are buttons on your arm (could possibly extend a few buttons down to fingers if needed), but then I supose you could just use the motion sensor of the Wiimote instead of IR camera for cursor movement Not exactyul ideal though.

The Wiimote and Track IR will be aimed at short range, at different positions of the body so no visible interference from IR leds.

[powerjosl]

Otka if that would work ok then the P5 Glove would be better if he can find one (and can still use glove pie for custom scripts), no guarantee that they won't interfere with each other because LEDs for both devices are pointing from the user to cameras.

The Wiimote idea could still work if you mount the Wiimote on top of forearm and IR LEDs mounted behind track IR camera, that way there would be no interferience and then there are buttons on your arm (could possibly extend a few buttons down to fingers if needed), but then I supose you could just use the motion sensor of the Wiimote instead of IR camera for cursor movement Not exactyul ideal though.

The Wiimote and Track IR will be aimed at short range, at different positions of the body so no visible interference from IR leds.

but then the p5 glove would be much better. what would be the best way to find one of those?

[powerjosl]

hm, looks like there's one on ebay for $44. I think I'll snatch it and give it a try. not much you can do wrong for that price.

[powerjosl]

there's still 8 left, in case someone wants to grab one as well: http://cgi.ebay.de/Essential-Reality-P5 ... 259wt_1141" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mAchiNE]

Cheers for that I might grab on as well.

[mAchiNE]

This guy has 10 new as well for people in the USA (he don't ship international) Please save the gloves of the other seller for international people
http://cgi.ebay.com/Essential-Reality-P ... 1626wt_944" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[WiredEarp]

I'm in exactly the same boat, I want a better solution for my flight simming than trying to find my mouse in the dark with my 3d glasses or HMD on.

I already have a P5 glove. It works fine with trackir - you just arrange your setup so that the P5 camera sensor doesn't see your TrackIR leds and vice versa.

However, the P5 accuracy is just crap. Maybe its just mine, but it jumps around too much to be useful (frustration factor is HIGH). My idea is to put a sensor on the P5 glove and that will solve all my problems. The glove is great, cos it lets you 'click' with your finger, while still being able to grab the joystick, throttle, etc with it.

I have come up with 3 possible solutions so far and am trying to determine the best answer. Currently, these are the ideas I have come up with:

1) attach a LED (or several) to my P5 glove, and use a webcam and Freetrack to track it. Using the P5 fingers to click, and Freetrack to move.

2) modify the P5 glove to turn on the existing LED's continuously (i think they are strobed currently), and use some tracking solution to track those.

2) I'm waiting for Razer Hydra to be in store here, but once it is, I'll buy one (Magnetic Head Tracker for $200? HELL YES!). Not having one, I can't say yet, but i'm hoping that I'll be able to take apart one of the trackers and make it small enough to mount to the P5 glove. Then, I'll be able to use dead accurate magnetic tracking, and it will track in 3 space and for all wrist orientations, unlike the LED solution. The other part of the Hydra, I plan to try mounting to my Z800 as a head tracker.

[powerjosl]

nice to see that I'm not the only one working on a flight sim setup. I'll see how accurate my P5 is when it get's here. Should be arriving in the next few days.
the trackIR just arrived today, now I'm just waiting for my HMD to be in the mail.

[cybereality]

The Razer Hydra are really light and feel like they are mostly hollow. If you take one apart, I bet you can reduce the size a lot.

[mAchiNE]

Interesting about the hydra feeling hollow, could mean WiredEarp's Idea of using the hydra as a magnetic headtracker could work, especially if you can separate the tracker from the buttons control board, then you can still have the right hand tracked for aiming and still use the analogue stick and other buttons of the left controller while tracking the head at the same time. it would be awesome if razer released a headtracker that used the same basestation to be used in conjunction with the Hydra as I'm sure the Hydra's base station will interfere with other headtracking devices (except trackir).

When I get one I will rip it open and see whats inside

[WiredEarp]

The Hydra really does sound pretty promising. Can someone who already has one tell me if they think if it would be possible to mount one upside down, using hooks to suspend the cables, so you could use it freestanding and turn 360 degrees without the wire getting all tangled etc?

Also, I don't suppose anyone know if its possible to use 2 Hydras at the same time? I was thinking it wouldn't be, due to two magnetic emitters confusing the system (unless you can use the limited range of it to your advantage somehow), but then thought that it might be be possible to use the extra sensors from a 2nd Hydra (ignoring the 2nd Hydra's base station), to double the number of sensors to 4.

[mAchiNE]

Razer Hydra thread here
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I posted and answer over there for you, although Cyber would be the best person to answer because he actually has one.

[WiredEarp]

Ok, just to update this thread (better updates in the Hydra thread Machine linked to), I received my Razer Hydra, and it seems like a good solution for virtual cockpit clicking etc. I don't really want to disassemble mine just yet, but I think if the guts of one of the controllers was removed and stuck to a P5 glove (or any other device that would let you 'click' and still keep your hands free) then it would be pretty much perfect. The accuracy is really good (way better than the P5 mouse) and it seems less of a pain than using optical tracking. Of course, as its just emulating a mouse in these applications, so its not 1:1 movement, but is all I really need. I also suspect 1:1 movement could potentially be added to FSX etc if someone put some effort into it...