What software/platforms are people using?

[martinh]

I still need to spec/cost an image generator for my VR rig, the old one was an SGI Indigo2 with the multichannel option, running Division dVS/dVISE which was wiped and I have no idea where it could be got from. I'm aiming to get a Windows machine, with dual outputs (I need 2 x VGA for the HMD), but there seem to be a lot of options re: software.

VRPN to get the Fastrak working
WorldViz Vizard looks good, but expensive
Unity 3D
Panda 3D
Quest 3D
EON
Syzygy
3D Via

Any I'm missing? I'm happy to build assets in one, and build scenes in another, done that before. Don't want a C++ API...

Mainly I want something straightforward to use that supports my peripherals. Performance will seem great to me, last time I was immersed was 1994, we had 10k polys for the whole world!

WorldViz seems to be the market leader at the moment, and has a cheap version. Any experiences?

Thanks

[bobv5]

Unity3d has a free version, might want to have a look what the guys over at http://www.vrgeeks.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; are doing, as they have written a lot of vrpn stuff for unity. Its the only one on your list I have used, but I think its pretty good. No idea if it will cope with the less than 100% stereo overlap you need though.

[Johnny-Mnemonic]

I'm working with Quest3D for about 5 years now.
And with my friend we implemented VRPN support there, as free plugin:
http://3dvrm.com/vrpn/

If you do not have high visual quality demands you will be able to do different worlds there straight forward, in matter of hours.
If you do need high quality graphics, you also can do this in Quest3D but this will require knowledge.

As example of top-notch quality demo made in Quest3D, you can check our Asteroid demo.
http://3dvrm.com/CraterBase/
It was also adopted to VR version for VR Geeks HMD kit.



It will be relatively easy to support your hardware in Quest3D, and you can use Quest3D Creative Edition + our VRPN plugins. However Creative Edition (simplest edition of Quest) isn't very cheap too.

You can use Unity as cheaper variant, but there can be difficult to make custom camera frustrums for high-FOV stereoscopy. Also you will need to find solution for VRPN, ask VRgeeks as suggested

Also, working with modern engines, you will need modelling software like 3dsMax or Maya to make your own geometry and export it to, for example, collada (*.DAE) standard format for 3D models which can be imported almost in any engine.

[martinh]

Thanks both - I'll have a look at those. I think VRPN will be OK with the Fastrak, but not sure about the mouse buttons. They're serial and on a different line to the Fastrak data, so shouldn't be insurmountable.

I think I'll have to see what I can download and play with. Good to hear these two are working for you guys.

Thanks,

Martin.

[martinh]

I thought of another question...

Do any of these allow you to edit in immersive mode and save the world/demo again? I used to do this with dVS/dVISE all the time - load the assets, go inworld and arrange and scale everything while immersed. I think the world file format .maz was a scenegraph type affair, there were some menus and things that hung in the air for editing, and with 5 buttons you could do various things.

Do they still do that?

Thanks,

Martin.

[cybereality]

I'm running a Windows machine Vista/7 dual-boot. Its 3 years old, so not really that powerful anymore, but I upgraded with a GTX 470, so I can at least play games in 3D. In terms of software I have been messing around here and there with the Ogre 3D engine. I know you said you don't want a C++ API, so I am not recommending it in your case. But for me, I like the flexibility it has with integrating with 3rd party peripherals. Almost all device SDKs will be in C++, so integration is pretty straight-forward. I had it working with the VR920 head-tracking and 3D with old Nvidia driver. That was fun. And I did some stuff with OpenCV optical head-tracking, but the results could have been better. Now I am hoping to pick things back up and do something with the upcoming Razer Hydra motion-controllers, which come out next month ( http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). I guess I have been slacking a bit on development. I need to get more serious about it.

[Fredz]

As a 3D engine Ogre 3D is really a great choice, it makes a very good use of C++ and has one of the cleanest implementations I've ever seen. It's been used for commercial games but it's free and Open Source.

To create 3D models and scenes for cheap you can also use Blender which is a very capable package, but with a quite steep learning curve. It's not Maya neither 3DS Max, but if you're a beginner it's a great alternative, you can also find a lot of information about how to use it on the Web (PDFs, web pages, videos, Wikis, books).

[cybereality]

Oh yes, I forgot the best thing about Orge: totally free and open source (even for commercial projects). Main issue I have with it is that the asset pipeline could be better. There are exporters, but they are managed by the community unofficially, so sometimes it is difficult to get everything you need (ie you may have to use old version of certain programs, or sometimes certain features will crash the exporter, etc.). And you are basically on your own for a lot of things, its just a rendering engine (ie no sound, physics, scripting, etc.).

Quest3D actually looked pretty interesting, I had a friend show me stuff he did but I never actually worked on it myself. One great thing about Quest3D is that you can modify scripts in real-time while the simulation is running. So you could change properties of the game (physics, scripting logic, etc.) move objects around, etc. all in real-time. Pretty cool. They also have a visual scripting language, which might be easier for you if you aren't comfortable with hardcore C++ (although I think you can still create C++ modules if need be).

[Johnny-Mnemonic]

(although I think you can still create C++ modules if need be).

Sure you can, if you need too

[martinh]

I'll be working with scripting rather than C++ I think!

Any opinions on Vizard? I see it mentioned a lot in VR articles.

Still gutted there's no modern version of dVS/dVise...

[cybereality]

I just checked out that Vizard demo. To be honest, I'm not impressed. Looks like their greatest strength is support for VR hardware but, in terms of rendering, it didn't look so hot. Something about the lighting model just seemed off. No where near the level of imagery like the image Johnny-Mnemonic posted (at least in terms of lighting). Also, it seems like they are using OpenGL, which may limit support with stereoscopic 3D drivers. I know the engine said it had native support, which is great if you have the right hardware for that. But I didn't see dual output as an option. I mean, it looks like a full featured package in most respects. But it also seems a little pricey, but I guess that's par of the course in this field.

Also, what is (was) dVS/dVise? Goggle doesn't seem to have much luck finding anything. Pictures or a video would be great, but if thats not possible please just explain what it did.

[martinh]

dVS/dVISE - Google autocorrects whatever you do, (does the same for dVisor - you get results back for "advisor") - it was the software system Division shipped with their kit.

http://www.max.in.ua/vrstuff/img014.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.max.in.ua/vrstuff/img015.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's the brochure. Pretty high level, lay out a scenegraph, you can go inworld and move things, set up behaviours. Very user friendly. Seemed to be killed when they were acquired. It had it's own formats .viz (geometry/assets) and .maz (world and callbacks).


Looks like Unity 3D and/or Quest 3D then, but nothing like dVS/dVISE exists any more, it seems.

I'm OK with Maya, bleurgh with Blender and will probably play around with anything that makes Collada files for building things. Are there still tools for simplifying meshes around? I've played with things like "3D Interior Design" on the mac, and converted it via SketchUp, but the resulting files are massive, and sort of the opposite of optimised...

Thanks everyone.

[martinh]

This is what happened to dVS/dVISE: http://www.ptc.com/products/division/reality" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[cybereality]

But what was it about dVS/dVISE that was so special, or can't be found with existing engines?

[martinh]

Ease of use really, to put a world together I can just specify a bunch of assets in the .maz file (I usually just edited the maz file in vi) and go immersive to arrange and scale them ready for the chemists to use. I spent more time immersed building worlds than sitting at the computer.

This was 1994 mind, so 20-30 minutes at a time, with a long break for the nausea to fade...

I need to have a play with the newer tools and see what they're like to use, I haven't had much time recently. Just got to bed at 5.30 finishing and MBA essay!

[cybereality]

Well I do know what you mean. A lot of packages these days seem to be over-engineered, or at least designed by programmers and not artists or designers. I think Unity seems to be one of the better ones in this respect. But I think most engines just make things way more complicated than they need to be. For example, years ago I used to work with Blitz3D. There was no world builder, it was only an IDE. But the language was super simple. It was based on BASIC, and the built-in libraries handled most stuff you would want to do (like loading assets, positioning/rotating objects, game logic, etc.). And you could extend it with DLLs for more complex stuff if necessary. But it was just really productive. If you wanted to load and spin a cube, it would take like 3 lines of code:

This is just psuedo-code, I don't recall the exact syntax:

Code: Select all

cube = LoadModel("cube.x")
while(1){
   RotateModel(cube, 1, 0, 0)
}

I also had a lot of fun with this application called Anark (years ago, not around any more) which is sort of like Adobe Flash, but for 3D. It was a web plug-in, similar to Unity, that was hardware accelerated. But the IDE was super-simple and productive. You could import an object through the file menu, and then place it on its own layer (like Photoshop or Flash). Then by clicking on the object and opening the code panel, you could attach logic to that object. So to rotate a cube, you would need only a few lines of code. It was all Javascript, but I don't remember the exact API calls but it was something like this:

Code: Select all

this.onUpdate = function() {
   this.rotation.x += 1;
}

Though the problem with these apps that make things really easy, is that they work great up until the point you want to do something funky and/or unorthodox and then you are stuck. That is why I like using straight C++ API, because you are only limited by your own skill level. One day I hope to create my own engine/ide/world-builder type of program. Don't think I have to skills to make it just yet, but I am just trying to get as many ideas as I can on how to make these systems better.

[martinh]

I know what you mean, but I doubt I'll get the time to get good at C++, busy life!

I have Unity now, and have been having a look. Quest 3D seems to be closer to what I'm after, but ouch....

http://www.quest3d.com/index.php?id=8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This says you need the VR edition to support motion trackers, serial ports or socket communications. But... it's about ten thousand pounds including VAT!

Next stop Ogre, I suppose.

Thanks again for your help!

[Fredz]

You can also try Cube 2 which is an FPS game which has an integrated map editor that you can use dynamically while in the game :
http://sauerbraten.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martinh]

That looks pretty cool, I'll try it, thanks. Has anyone hooked it up to immersive peripherals?

Thanks

[Fredz]

From what I've read this game should support head tracking, it could be a good solution for what you want to do.

[martinh]

Cool - I'll have a look. thank you