Some comments and questions

[Freke1]

Hi

first:
thanks for answering my questions if You do.

second:
Combining Irrational ideas (which has no logic), Gravity (which no ones knows what is?) and Quantum physics (which no ones understand?) seems like the logical thing to do . You should add String theory (which can never be verified) and You'll not have a lot of time for 3D gaming I think?

1. Why do people like 3D more than 2D? All people, or some people? Why? What makes them different?
I like 3D because I like to imaging being there in the game. I play best when I'm sitting in the car, not viewing it from behind. 3D adds to that.
Not all people are like that though. Some are good at both. And we prefer to do what we are good at, I think. The thrill we get from stimulating Our senses is very individual. Some people like rollercoasters, some people absolutely don't.

2. In your opinion, what are the best ways to educate people on how to generate S-3D content correctly? What motivates their interest to want to be educated?
To me a little 3D is much better than no 3D. And the 3D is always off when I start a game. So games should start with 6% separation and 0% convergence as a start. A tutorial that autoadjusts a 3D world could be illustrative. If You illustrates to people what separation and convergence is, they will want to use it as best they can.

3. How can convergence and separation in 3D games be automatically/manually managed so results are always comfortable, and don't cause headaches or sickness.
6% separation and 0% convergence as a start. There's no need for wrong/massive 3D as default. It would be a bit annoying if the colors were wrong too and I had to adjust them every time.

It took a long time and RAGEdemon's explanation in a thread before I understood what separation and convergence is/does.

I have a few questions:
1. How do 3D objects size contribute to the 3D experience? The brain knows if it is a big object far away or a smaller object closer up but how? I can't imaging it's by input from the muscles holding the eyes in an angle inward or the focus length/strecth of Our pupils as this is physical things.
2. If You were to render 3D game objects in correct size does it matter if it is a projector screen or a monitor (with same FOV)?
3. What is gravity - have they found out? (off topic I know ).
Thx.

/Freke1

[Jahun]

1. Why do people like 3D more than 2D? All people, or some people? Why? What makes them different?

More immersion, visually stunning shots and added info about the scene. The extra dimension adds alot to the amount of info one can read from a single shot. What objects are close, big, pointy etc. I remember a nice shot in Halflife 2 Episode 2, where one sees a huge vista over a distant, collapsed city. In 3D it really feels distant.. and that adds enormously to the feel of the shot. It doesn't need to be in your face 3D all the time.. sometimes the far away shots do the trick too.

Also, 3D makes for surprising moments, something 2D can't do. Grenades truly coming at ya, make the scare alot better. Walking in the snow of Call of Duty 2, it really tends to get close/in your face.... quite realistic.


2. In your opinion, what are the best ways to educate people on how to generate S-3D content correctly? What motivates their interest to want to be educated?

Easy, make a sample 3D scene/very small "game" and a tutorial in it. Have people try the different ways and start off with explaining how to get all the scene behind the screen and go from there. If they see it happening in front of their eyes with usual caveats highlighted, it should be alot clearer.


3. How can convergence and separation in 3D games be automatically/manually managed so results are always comfortable, and don't cause headaches or sickness.

Not sure if automatic is possible, but if a tutorial is given nicely, one could stress the point that all scene inside screen is a safe way to go. Perhaps one can convince players to start that way... maybe make profiles for the most common games.. shouldn't be much work. Then a single button click would revert to those "safe" ones.

I have a few questions:
1. How do 3D objects size contribute to the 3D experience? The brain knows if it is a big object far away or a smaller object closer up but how? I can't imaging it's by input from the muscles holding the eyes in an angle inward or the focus length/strecth of Our pupils as this is physical things.
2. If You were to render 3D game objects in correct size does it matter if it is a projector screen or a monitor (with same FOV)?
3. What is gravity - have they found out? (off topic I know ).
Thx.

/Freke1

You meant them for BlackQ, but I'll do my best nonetheless (in all cases, just my 2 cents...)

1. I think it is all relative ( ), for instance, when I make a single rectangle for both eyes, and project them onto eachother and can't see my surrounding... I have no clue how close they are.. if I start separating them from eachother, my eyes must bend but I still have no clue, untill they get uncomfortably bended as if it is very close, then I get the feeling it may be close..

However, if I make 2 rectangles per eye, make 1 match for both eyes, and the other separated.. it is very obvious one is in front if the other.. For this reason I like to illuminate my room sometimes, to have a sort of baseline in depth in case the game only has a objectnearby. It will feel nearby since it is relative to my room.....

I think the same holds for more complex scenes. A single object is hard to comprehend but from their relative position, your brain determines whether one is big/far away or small/closeby..


2. Not sure what you mean exactly, but screen size matters ( ), for instance the 3D depth is relative, but screen size is absolute. Not sure if you mean that, but you can tweak the depth size of an object... making a ball look like an egg and vice versa....


3. Err.. I am working on a physics PhD.. but I leave this one for BlackQ

[Likay]

1. Why do people like 3D more than 2D? All people, or some people? Why? What makes them different?

Is that a question? Of course 3D is better than 2D! It entirely decides which games i like to play since i love 3D so much! 3D takes you into the game like 2D never can do. When swimming in Tombraider you can really feel the bubbles in your face. In flatout 1-2 it's a real pain trying to sit still while things are flying around hitting you. In HL2 you get the creep when a fast zombie tears your face off. Playing crowbar tennis with a bunch of manhacks is also fun since you see exactly where they are and when to smack them. Absolutely impossible in 2d only. . I'm so bitten it took me only a year of stereogaming with crt/shutters to decide to get a dual projector rig!
Seeing others having the 3d-experience for the first time is a kick! I believe everybody prefers 3d before 2d but maybe don't like the suffers (worse fps, less effects. trouble having it going) and so on... It's considered too difficult having 3d in games today for those who knows about it (my friends as an example).
One of the (maybe biggest) problem is that the advertizing for 3d has been a bit poor. No advertizing, no knowledge and therefore no interest. .Since stereo don't work in every games and/or applications it's of course difficult to marketing 3D. Up to now some serious tweaking is needed to make the games run in stereo. People want something easy and more or less plug and play. Kudos to IZ3D for their job on this thing. Their driver is very easy for a start, very compatible, works right away and is tweakable.

2. In your opinion, what are the best ways to educate people on how to generate S-3D content correctly? What motivates their interest to want to be educated?

Best solution might be the way IZ3D does. You have decent settings when activating drivers and you're able to play right away. See also Jahuns answer above. Can't be done better than that.

3. How can convergence and separation in 3D games be automatically/manually managed so results are always comfortable, and don't cause headaches or sickness.

I think this might mostly be up to game developers to render scenes and objects with stereovision in mind. Then it would be no problem to find a decent setting for stereo either. We're not there (yet, ) so simply adding in the tutorial (see no 2) that less values is better especially when starting to view 3D.



cheers

[BlackQ]

Hi, Freke1!

Thank you for your participation. Yes, Gravity and Quantum Mechanics add a lot of fun to my life And now answers to your questions:

1. How do 3D objects size contribute to the 3D experience? The brain knows if it is a big object far away or a smaller object closer up but how? I can't imaging it's by input from the muscles holding the eyes in an angle inward or the focus length/strecth of Our pupils as this is physical things

3D object is more complicated that 2D. First of all it is important to mention that 3D does not exist at very big and very small distance. If object is tooooo far we can not see 3D because difference between left and right is almost invisible. If object is too close we can not see 3D because difference between left and right is so strong that brain van not match them and fuse images into one 3D object.

If we are talking about one object - totally isolated from any other on white background then in theory we can not define it is size - brain have not enough information. Yes, brain can build triangle using eye stereo base and viewing directions, but it is not enough because there are infinitive set of triangles can be build with same stereo base. Thus brain either use another object for comparison or internal memory with some idea how big chair can be for example. Our visual experience plays huge role in 3D vision even we don't think about this



2. If You were to render 3D game objects in correct size does it matter if it is a projector screen or a monitor (with same FOV)?

In 3D games and animation most of the people use parallel cameras with reasonable focal length. Thus if you are not to close or too far everything would be fine. Recommended distance to the any screen is from 1 to 4 diagonals. You may see "defects" for some movie made with short focal length or for some specific objects like rails


3. What is gravity - have they found out? (off topic I know Rolling Eyes ).

Gravity is visible results of curved space-time. It is easy to imagine curved 2d space - put heavy ball to list of paper. After that any smaller ball on this paper list will go to big ball. For 3D space is it harder to imagine and almost impossible for $4D space-time, but... mechanism is the same. Theory we are developing is trying to unifiy this gravity with quantum mechanics