Possible new 3D display method for single-chip DLP....

[relaxman]

So this method need a real 85hz projector?
As i remember i read yours is also a 60Hz one.
Do you think it will work with infocus X9? Just have to figure out what colour wheel it has?

thx, and grat!

[zerong]

That mean with your system we can use 3d on 60 hz system ? i dont really understand how you do ?!?

[shonofear]

haha, im a little confused by your super intelligence write ups (for me anyhoo) but am loving reading your new progress updates. Well I got a Infocus X3 that does 85Hz at 1024x768 and can be a possible tester if needed.

Congrats mate, btw are you an Ozzie or from UK (referring to the Colour comment) ?
Rest up

[OzOnE2k10]

Thanks guys, and thanks to Hornet for the reminder about swapping the colours. I should have started with that first really.

Please note: this method is not really intended for 85Hz projectors as such, and an 85Hz projector is not necessary for this to work. Having said that, this method should in theory work for almost any refresh rate. The problem is, with this method, you can quickly reach the frequency limit for your shutter glasses because they switch so much faster (my poor glasses are definitely a bit tired.)

The point is, I don't think this method will ever beat using a projector with a faster TRUE refresh rate - and, if your projector does in fact speed up it's colour wheel and runs at around 80Hz or higher (true frame rate), you probably won't get much noticeable flicker anyway (meaning this method would not be needed in the first place). But, this display method WILL reduce the flicker when using pageflipped 3D and shutter glasses with MOST "60Hz only" DLP projectors.

There are a huge number of projectors which only do 60Hz internally (or a very narrow margin of internal refresh rates), so this should hopefully improve things for people who want 3D on a budget (like me ), or people who don't want to spend out on another projector just yet. This method will NOT work with LCD projectors. AFAIK most (/ all??) LCD projectors won't work with shutter glasses anyway.

There's still a lot of tweaking and improving to do though, and I know my timings are still off because of the small amount of ghosting I'm getting (I need to get my proper o'scope back!). Also, it requires a controller box for the glasses, and a way of testing the colour wheel configuration of different projectors. I'm hoping that the signals will be a lot cleaner on the o'scope (when using the solar panel with the test patterns).

The idea is that you will put a small solar panel or photosensor in front of your projector lens, then the software will show some test patterns on the screen (projector). It will then figure out your colour wheel config and set up the shutter controller accordingly. The setup will only take a few seconds, and you should only need to do this once (eventually, we should be able to build up a database of different colour wheel types).

Oh, and there's still no way as yet for me to sync the glasses to the Left / Right images automatically until I can get the blue-line decoder part working. Also keep in mind that (and this is a biggie, if you didn't realize) this won't work for GAMES unless they include this specific 3D mode. The idea is that Peter will hopefully add support for this in Stereoscopic Player if I can demonstrate that it works properly and the controllers can be set up easily. Then, we might be able to persuade IZ3D to add this mode to their driver so that games will work too. (It's very similar to normal pageflipping, it just requires the green channel to be swapped between the Left and Right images.)

So, thanks again for your encouragement, but it's not quite finished yet. I need to see what the flickering looks like compared to normal pageflipping (from memory, I'm sure it's MUCH worse though at 60Hz?), and also wait to see some 3D video clips to see if there are any major problems with moving images etc.

I think I've settled on "ColourFlip 3D" as a name, because it's similar to "pageflip", but suggests that the colours have been swapped too. Although, I might change the name to make it a bit more "international".

OzOnE.
(btw, I'm from the cold, rainy UK, and yes I'm still awake at 8:15am. I couldn't sleep, so I watched a bit of Casino Royale in 720p while tweaking the projector settings. )

[Hornet]

Hello, ev. adding this metod to P.Wimmers stereoscopic player will by good option. Second step is creating of controller for shutters.

Thx a lot for your work. So quick response is amazing. Thx

[zerong]

This method dont reduce a lot life of shutter glasses and autonomy?

[OzOnE2k10]

I suppose that running the glasses faster will reduce their life somewhat, but this is why it might be better to use this method with "2x colour speed" projectors, so the glasses won't run quite so fast (only around 110Hz instead of 210Hz with "4x colour speed"). If they run at 110Hz, this is no different from using glasses with 120Hz projectors. Admittedly, 210Hz is very fast, so I still need to do a lot of testing to see if the glasses can withstand this for a long time.

I think the majority of people probably own "2x colour" DLP projectors, so it would be interesting to try this at some point. (I have a Dell 3200MP projector which is probably "2x colour", but my DVI cable broke, I don't have a VGA adapter for it, and I don't have enough DVI-to-HDMI adapters to try HDMI on it. I'll buy another DVI cable soon.

Then again, I'm using a pair of Elsa Revelator glasses for testing, which I bought around 5 years ago and used for about 2 years with an nVidia card. They still work well so far, so I think they do last a long time anyway. The main point is that if they do wear out, they can be bought very cheaply. I bought a second pair recently so that two of us could watch a 3D movie together (Journey To The Center Of The Earth 3D in "super-flickery standard 60Hz pageflipping"). I bought the second pair for only £10 (including postage) on eBay a few months ago!

I'm not sure what you mean by "autonomy"? Please note that this 3D method does NOT modify or speed up the projector in any way, it just takes advantage of the colour wheel patterns to increase the perceived refresh rate and reduce flicker on 60Hz projectors.

OzOnE.

EDIT: Oh, forgot to mention that the controller box currently only works with VGA because it's very complex to extract the sync signals from HDMI. There might be a few ways of getting around this though. I think I'll save that for another post!

[zerong]

My HC 1100 is 4x color wheel and 6 segments color ! but i found with google search it is ok for 3D 60hz (not 84hz) !

I hope i could try 3D with this !

what i need for it ? a emetter ? which ? and glasses ? which ?

a software to play 3d with pc and with ati card ? which ?

Your method is like a software patch apply to 3d software , is it ??? or it need a hardware modification ?

[OzOnE2k10]

Well that's the problem atm. I still need to build some more controllers and try to get blue-line decoding to work properly (although, you could use the controller as it is with vsync, but I'll have to add a Left / Right swap switch).

Also, there is no support as yet for this method in software apart from being able to view still 3D images using the software attached in the above posts. I need to do a lot of work before this will be put into "proper" software and games.

For the actual glasses required, I will just put a standard 3-pin VESA connector on the controller so it will work with most standard glasses which use the same connector. I could even add an IR emitter onto the controller box at a later date. Again, a lot of work to do yet.

So in summary, it requires...

• That this new 3D method is put into stereo video playback software and into games (or the IZ3D driver).
• A new type of controller box (which I hope to eventually build for you guys).
• A pair of shutter glasses which will plug into a standard 3-pin VESA connector (or have an emitter with a 3-pin plug).
• A way of using test patterns to configure the controller box for the type of colour wheel in your projector.

The controller box isn't too complex hardware-wise, but it has taken many months just to get the basic software in place (mainly for the blue-line decoding, which still isn't working yet. ) I need to build some proper quality controllers, as I currently only have ONE nasty looking prototype.

The controller box has two VGA sockets on - you just use a standard M-M vga cable to connect the graphics card to the box, then another cable (which you no doubt already have) to connect the box to the projector. The VGA signal just passes through, and the box doesn't alter the signal in any way, it only monitors the sync signals (and eventually the BLUE signal). The box then obviously has the socket for the shutter glasses, and it generates the correct Left / Right switching sequence.

To make the box a bit cheaper, it could really do with a simple "dongle" which connects to the graphics card and has an extra wire which goes to the box. (This would be cheaper than the extra VGA cable.) Just like in the attached picture (not mine).

Anyway, we're jumping ahead of ourselves a bit here.... I just changed the controller code so I could directly compare the standard pageflipping mode to the ColourFlip mode - the result is that the flickering is hugely reduced in ColourFlip mode! The bad news is that the glasses are quite a lot darker in this mode, so the perceived reduction in flicker could be masked by this. I need to try it out on a "2x colour speed" projector, in which case the shutter frequency will be a lot lower, and the glasses should let through a lot more light.

@zerong - I guessed that your projector might be only 60Hz internally. Many projectors nowadays work like this, and there are only a few models which do TRUE refresh rates that are faster than 60Hz. Also, many projectors which include DVI input (or especially HDMI) will only work at 60Hz on this input. Most projectors which support higher true refresh rates will only do so when using the VGA input.

So again, please bear with my guys. This project is nowhere near ready, and I still need to make sure that it's even usable (or practical ).

OzOnE.

EDIT: Seriously, does anyone know why the text box keeps scrolling all over the place while I'm trying to type a post?? I had to edit this post about fifteen times because I can't see what I'm typing. Most of the time I have to type into a text file first, then paste it in. REALLY weird and annoying.

[zerong]

Is it a way ? : http://nextstepsolutions.co.uk/home/node/11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[OzOnE2k10]

Hi,

I've seen that box before - my controller currently already does what that box does (that part is easy ). It only switches the Left / Right shutters on each VSYNC pulse, so you often need to push the switch to swap the switching (it can't keep the correct Left / Right polarity).

This is what the blue-line code does - it keeps the correct L/R sync between the image on the screen and the glasses. I've been trying all day to get the blue-line decoding working on my controller, but it's being a pain. The controller can now count the HSYNC pulses, work out how many lines there are (from your chosen resolution), and find the last line (for measuring the blue-line), but it's having problems "seeing" the blue line itself.

If I could find a cheap FPGA board, I could probably get all of this working in about an hour, but I can't find a cheap FPGA board anywhere?? I have a Pluto-II board, but this is overkill for what we need. Then again, it would make the colour wheel sync stuff much easier.

I could build a box very similar to the one in the link as long as people would be happy with having to toggle the switch every other time they start playing a game or video? Or every time the software glitches (the Left / Right switching could swap at random.)

I think their box has been out of production for a while too. For me to make a similar one which does ONLY what their box does would be fairly easy. Would anyone want to buy them if I built them though? (it wouldn't be very expensive, but wouldn't do blue-line decoding or ColourFlipping obviously).

OzOnE.

[slipstream]

I want to buy from you, whetever it is, that will make my Optoma HD200X work in 3D.

[THEDRUMMER]

Ozone, I'm in the market to buy one of those! I was going to order a regular vga dongle today:
http://www.ultimate3dheaven.com/pcdongle.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but after re-reading the description on nextstepsolutions site I realize that any regular pc dongle won't work for a dlp projector. I would love to be able to buy it from you. Your efforts would definitly be worth something.... How much would you charge? ... I'm in Canada btw but shipping shouldn't be too much right?
TheDrummer

[OzOnE2k10]

Hi,

For a very simple shutter controller which does standard pageflipping, has a L/R swap switch and a small delay dial, I don't think it would cost very much as there are only two chips in it. It's probably easier for most people to build one themselves, it really isn't that difficult and can be made on veroboard (prototype PCB). If you've never done much electronics in the past, you would learn a lot in the process.

One of the best example circuits is on this page...

http://www.petesprojects.com/stereo-vid ... n6.htm#6.1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You could do away with the LM1881 chip, because this is only for viewing the older line-sequential DVDs, and this wouldn't work on most modern plasma / LCD TV's anyway nowadays.

Again, there's no way for this type of circuit to know the correct Left / Right relationship between the glasses and the image on screen. You will need to add a toggle switch and will need to switch it most of the time (when you first start a video / game) until the 3D image looks correct.

Also, this basic circuit will NOT improve the flicker situation with 60Hz DLP projectors in any way. It's fine if you just want to experiment with shutter glasses on a DLP projector and you've never used your glasses with your projector before. The circuit should work for DLP projectors with a faster true refresh rate (above 60Hz).

It's possible that you might even get it working with only one chip (74HC74) since the other chip is for an adjustable delay. I've found that my projector needs a fair bit of delay though (some models of projector will have bad ghosting without using the delay circuit.)

I've just ordered a few of the chips for this circuit just to play around with it. My current controller is a lot more advanced than this, so once I get the basic circuit built, I don't mind selling a few to you guys. The only thing is that it will probably be built on Veroboard, as it's quite expensive and time consuming to get "proper" PCB's made up (one of the big problems with hobby electronics.) I also need to get some project boxes, and buy some 3-pin mini DIN sockets so that most standard shutter glasses can be plugged straight in.

@slipstream: I don't know if your projector has a TRUE internal refresh rate faster than 60Hz, so with the simple circuit you will get 3D, but it will be very flickery. The 3D depth can be quite good, but the flickering can be very distracting and takes away from the 3D experience quite a bit.

In the user manual for your projector, it does say that it can accept a VGA signal up to 85Hz, but most projectors say this, and unfortunately it does NOT mean that it will be the true refresh rate. My feeling is that your projector is only 60Hz internally. I could be wrong though.

btw, they've definitely got the contrast ratio wrong on the Optoma UK site...

http://www.optoma.co.uk/projectordetail ... &PC=HD200X" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm sure it's actually 3500:1 NOT 350:1 !! Not a good mistake for such a big company.

@THEDRUMMER: I'm fairly certain that the dongle in the link is the same as the E-Dimensional dongle - as you can see here....

http://blunitrox.co.uk/blunitrox/produc ... ssLCD.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not too familiar with the different types of shutter glasses and dongles, so I don't know if the E-Dimensional drivers will work with the most recent nVidia / ATI drivers. AFAIK, the software just needs to activate the E-Dimensional dongle for the correct mode. I think this is just a colour code, and I know that StereoScopic Player supports E-Dimensional control.

If it's easy enough to get working, you can't really beat that price for a nicely built dongle. Actually, I might buy one myself! I could use most of the parts anyway.
EDIT: Just went through the checkout, and realized that it's $39 shipping to the UK! Way too much for me atm.

OzOnE.

[THEDRUMMER]

Hi Ozone, Thanks for keeping us updated. I realize that your sync box will be much more advanced than other available ones, and that is awesome. I think for now I will just build my own simple one. (I've done a tiny bit of soldering before, I even built an electronic drum kit that triggered MIDI notes!) I guess I was just worried it would be a bit too difficult with the directions I can find online and I was thinking buying one would be a better way to go. I will, however give a stab at it. Thanks for all your development of the fancier box. I may be in the market in the near future for that if it all goes well. Slipstream and I have pretty much the same projector btw... I just want to see if I can get it working with full colour 3D at 85hz or even 60hz just to see it work. Wish me luck with the soldering. Best of luck with your soldering too! I actually downloaded a couple wiring diagrams for a shutter controller and for the life of me can't find where I found them online. They use two NE555N timing integrated chips, 4 resistors total, and 2 capacitors. I'd upload the pictures but I'm not sure if I can on this forum? It's too bad all the guides on how to build this stuff are broken links now on stereo3d.com. I look forward to hearing about your future progress on your project.
TheDrummer

[relaxman]

"I'm sure it's actually 3500:1 NOT 350:1 !! "

No, its ANSI CONTRAST is really 350:1, and its not bad.

[THEDRUMMER]

Hi Ozone, I couldn't understand the guide on the link you gave. It seemed that the circuit diagram on that page was for a much more complicated purpose??? Here's the picture of what I think is a basic vga pass through dongle circuit diagram that I found somewhere online. I also uploaded pics in the forum photo post of an explanation of this circuit.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/gallery/displayim ... ?pos=-2931" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does this look like a good circut to you? As far as being a basic shutterglass timing controller?

It at least has an adjustable delay using a variable resistor, which, I think, EDimensional doesn't include in theirs, right?
I'll have to add a toggle switch to reverse sync when it's out. Also, I'll try my old shutterglasses first, and they only have a stereo headphone jack so I'll use a stereo jack female plug first too instead of the VESA DIN 3 plug.
I found an electronics supplier nearish to me so I will be buying the components very soon.

http://www.rpelectronics.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They look like they will only cost around $10 CDN.

If, when I'm done messing around, my projector is still flickery as heck, I can't wait to try out your solution!

[OzOnE2k10]

No, its ANSI CONTRAST is really 350:1, and its not bad.

My mistake - it looks like Optoma used the ANSI contrast ratio, where almost all other projectors use the Full On / Full Off ratio (which is far less accurate for real-World use)....

http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/project ... D200X.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As the projector uses a modern 1080p chip, I strongly suspect the contrast ratio is closer to 2000:1 (when compared to other projectors' specs). Still a bit strange that they decided to go with the ANSI spec? Maybe other manufacturers should do the same, so we get a more accurate spec.

I believe the Full On / Full On spec just uses a full black / full white image - they then calc the ratio of lux / lumens between the two. The ANSI spec uses a "checkerboard" pattern, which gives a FAR better spec of contrast when there are both bright and dark objects on the screen at once (something you're more likely to see on real-World scenes).

@THEDRUMMER: The 555 timer diagram is actually more confusing... The "Output signal from VGA" part of the digram looks like the type of signal you would expect to see on the DDC pin of an nVidia graphics card, but I can't understand how it's supposed to work as it also suggests that it drives an IR Emitter??

If you have an nVidia card, then you might not need a circuit at all - you should be able to simply hook up the VESA connector directly the DDC and power pins on the graphics card to directly drive the glasses (like the Else Revelator's do anyway).

tbh, the main reason you might need the circuit I suggested is when using an ATI card - the drivers don't have support for toggling the DDC pin, so you have to use the VSYNC pin to toggle the glasses instead, and rely on a switch to get the correct Left / Right swap. Having said that, the delay part of the circuit should help in all cases to reduce the ghosting to a minimum when using DLP projectors (might not need this on all DLP PJ's, but it's very handy).

The 555 circuit has two seperate timing adjustments, which would actually make it difficult to get the correct timing. If it's designed to connect to the VGA VSYNC, then the diagram labled "Output signal from VGA card..." would not be a good representation for the VSYNC signal. The VSYNC signal is not 50/50, it is only a very narrow pulse at the start of each frame. The 555 circuit could probably be adjusted to work, but it's actually overcomplex. It might prove difficult to add a Left / Right toggle switch to it too.

I think the "IR Emitter" part means that this is the connection to a 3-pin VESA IR Emitter, not that it drives an IR LED directly?? (Most IR emitters use a fairly complex signal to trigger the glasses, so the 555 circuit couldn't directly drive an LED.)

It depends what you want to do, but if you have an ATI card and DLP projector, you only need a circuit with a Left / Right toggle switch, and one "phase delay" dial...

Personally, I would use the diagram I suggested, but you can ignore the LM1881 chip and just use the 74HC123 and 74HC74 chips. btw, there is a mistake on the original diagram - the VSYNC pin on the VGA socket is actually pin 14 and NOT pin 12. Funny enough, the PCB layout on the site is correct, I think it's just that the original author might have counted the pins in the wrong order when the diagram was drawn??

I've attached a simplified (and corrected) diagram, and I've added a Left / Right swap toggle switch and the VESA connector.

The 74HC123 chip is used as a timer to let you add a variable amount of delay to the VSYNC pulses (using the 50K potentiometer dial R3). This should be useful for DLP projectors as most probably have a slight phase-shift between the VSYNC pulses and when the actual frame is projected. The 74HC74 is just a flip-flop, so it's output toggles HIGH then LOW each time a VSYNC pulse is received (once the delay has been added by the 74HC123.)

The output pulse stays HIGH or LOW during a whole frame of VGA video. This can be used directly to drive shutter glasses which use the 3-pin VESA connector. Be careful with the 3-pin VESA pinout in the attached diagram - I'm fairly sure it's viewed from the FRONT of the socket, but I don't currently have an easy way of confirming this 100%. (If the +5V and Ground pins are swapped, this will probably cause some damage!)

Personally, I would build the VGA passthrough adapter more like the one on this site...

http://www.int03.co.uk/crema/hardware/stereo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can also do away with the LM340T-5 voltage regulator in the attached diagram and power the circuit directly from a USB connector like the above site does (use a small fuse though!). This is how I power my current controller.

Let me know if you have any problems building this. I'll be making one of these simple controllers in the next few days when the chips arrive.

OzOnE.

[Okta]

Would it be worthwhile building a timing box with 3 pin in/out for use with the samsung plasma and dlp tv's to reduce the bad ghosting? IF you can produce these cheap enough i would buy one.

[OzOnE2k10]

Hi,

I'm not sure if it would help a huge amount with plasma TV's, but it might help with DLP. I think the problem with plasma TV's is that the image has a slight persistance - the plasma "cells" don't always discharge instantly once the image data has changed, so the image stays on the screen for a fraction of a second longer than is wanted. Then again, plasmas generally have much faster response times than LCDs (AFAIK), so a controller might help with the second problem...

Almost all digital displays these days use a memory buffer to write the image data into, once a full frame is written to memory, the image is then written to the actual display device / panel. Many displays have a delay of at least one frame, but can also have an extra added delay on top of this due to memory transfers or buffering. So, this delay might be present on some plasmas and some DLPs. My Acer DLP projector appears to have a delay of one full frame (16.66ms at 60Hz) PLUS an added delay of around 0.667ms.

A shutter controller with a small amount of variable delay might help reduce the ghosting caused by this extra delay, but it might not help if the Left image slightly merges with the Right image due to the persistance / response time of the display itself.

If you're getting some ghosting with a DLP TV / projector and you know that the refresh rate of the PC is in sync with the true refresh rate of the display, then it's likely that you have an extra added delay which the controller might help with (worth a try). Of course, LCD shutter glasses also have their own delay, so the best way is to have a variable delay control so you can visually see when the ghosting is at it's minimum. In other words, I can't guarantee an improvement unless you actually try it with your display.

I will build the first one of these and see how it performs. I know that the polarity of VSYNC / HSYNC signals changes with different resolutions, but I think the above circuit should still work OK. As long as people don't mind if I build the circuit on Veroboard (instead of a manufactured PCB), then I don't mind selling a few.

I wouldn't think it would cost much more than around £15 to build these ($24). I'll let you know how well the first one works.

OzOnE.

EDIT: Oh, I see. For a 3D DLP TV which already has a 3-pin output, I'll have to figure out what you would need to delay this signal. Since it will already be a HIGH / LOW signal with 50/50 duty cycle, you would need to make sure that the delay circuit works on both rising and falling parts of the input. I'll play around with a simulation to see what the simplest circuit is.

[THEDRUMMER]

Thanks Ozone for all the help!!!

[OzOnE2k10]

@THEDRUMMER: No problem. I've just realized something though - you need to make sure that the connector on your shutter glasses don't connect directly to the shutter panels themselves, as the circuit won't work for this. Most glasses have a small (or integrated?) controller to drive the LCD panels, the panels don't usually connect directly to the plug unless there's an extra controller for it.

eg. on the Elsa glasses, there is a small box (about an inch tall) which actually generates the correct voltages to drive the LCD panels. The signal on the 3-pin VESA connector only tells the small box which eye / shutter should be blanked.

Also, if your glasses do indeed have an integrated controller to drive the panels, you need to work out the pinout for the stereo jack. I'm assuming this could be the same pinout as shown elsewhere, but you need to be 100% certain to be sure not to damage something. I found this diagram on Google, but I don't know if it applies to your glasses or not?...

http://img265.imageshack.us/i/vesaconnections.jpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How were your older glasses (with the stereo jack) connected before? Did they have their own controller box or dongle?

btw, I've tried simulating the circuit on the PC, but the 74HC123 doesn't simulate properly (I'm sure it's only a software problem). I think the controller could be made to work as a delay for the VESA connector on 3D DLP TV's if the second half of the 74HC123 is used. The parts arrived today to build this, so I'll have a go later on.

OzOnE.

[THEDRUMMER]

OzOnE2k10: I have Asus shutterglasses. They used to plug directly into an 1/8" stereo jack on my Nvidia Card ... Asus V3800 TNT2 Ultra 32mb. There was no in-line box, just a wire straight to the shutterglasses. I sold that old computer this summer for $10 and regret it now. On your link: http://www.int03.co.uk/crema/hardware/stereo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; they explained how their circuit wasn't made for 'dumb' glasses ... like mine I assume.
My current setup has 2 Nvidia 9800 GT cards in SLI. There is a S-Video 7pin Video out connector on the video card and that's all.
This just doesn't seem to be as easy as I was hoping!
I had seen that DIN3 to stereo picture you linked to and had assumed that that was all I needed to do to connect my Asus glasses to these controllers. On Stereo3d they used to have a guide for a controller for Asus type glasses like mine but every single link of theirs is dead! I may have to buy a new pair of shutterglasses if I ever want to get this working. I just didn't want to spend much on it because I didn't really buy my projector FOR 3D. I just thought it would be time well spent if I could get it to work somewhat decently, for a few bucks.
What I really am waiting for, and why I didn't just buy the Acer H3650 projector, is a decent Head Mounted Display .. Like TDVision 720p TDVisor (if they'd ever properly market it to the general public)! Hmmm, there's an emagin z800 on ebay right now for $995 US too! But that's another matter altogether.
Well, I'll keep trying, but this isn't easy. Should I buy some EDimensional Glasses and then buy that $9 vga pass through dongle I linked to show you? It just wouldn't have any adjustable delay ... but I should be able to see if it's going to work at that point, right? .. then maybe I'll buy a cheaper 120hz 3D projector in the future???? and I could use those glasses with that one.
Well, Good luck with your project progress.
TheDrummer

[OzOnE2k10]

OK, things have got slightly complicated again. btw, I have insomnia lately, so this is a big post!...

I was going to post the stuff below when I realized that the latest ATI drivers might have been released. There have been many reports in the last weeks that ATI will add S3D support to their next Catalyst driver. I'm sure that a few sites even mentioned that it will specifically be the 10.1 version. So, I checked on ATI/AMD and sure enough, the drivers have been released. I just installed them and...... NOTHING!! I can't find ANY new controls at all for S3D (not even anaglyph).

I know that they only said the drivers would be "more compatible" with IZ3D and the Bit Cauldron shutter glasses, and also they apparently added support for decoding the coming 3D Blu-Ray titles (using an updated PowerDVD?), but many people got the impression that they would include other S3D options in the drivers too (just like nVidia do)?? So unless there is a registry hack to enable some new S3D options, it's VERY disappointing as usual. I was hoping they might still have added some other ways of generating a stable L/R signal with the new drivers which could be taken advantage of with homebrew controllers (I'm pretty sure it's only nVidia who control the SDA pin to make connecting glasses easier.) Oh well, hopefully someone will hack the Zigbee stuff soon.

Do ATI/AMD not realize that there has always been massive interest in stereo 3D and I'm sure they lost a LARGE amount of market share in the past for not including S3D in the modern drivers! I only changed to ATI about two years ago because they apparently had better support for HD decoding at the time, and the drivers may be a bit more stable too. It was a real shame to loose the direct shutter control with nVidia. Then again, my glasses only worked well with "bench-breaking" CRT monitors, and I'm NOT going there again!

With IZ3D though, all we're really asking for is a simple way of getting a stable L/R sync signal out of the PC. Why is this so difficult?? I know it's not IZ3D's fault, but is it not possible to make a basic USB dongle for this and control it from the IZ3D API??

Anywho, rant over. I'll have to take a deeper look into these Catalyst drivers now. @THEDRUMMER: About your glasses...

Ahh, I see - it looks like the Asus glasses are wired directly to the jack plug, and they don't have an integrated panel driver. I just found a site which shows a basic circuit for connecting the Asus glasses to an SGI Workstation... The SGI uses the same Left / Right, +5V/0V, 50/50 signal that you find on a VESA connector, BUT - I didn't realize you have nVidia cards!!...

So all you will need is the opamp circuit from the site below, and connect the input of the circuit to the SDA pin on one of your nVidia cards. The nVidia drivers already support stereo 3D on almost all modern cards, and the drivers should output the L/R signal on the SDA pin (of one, or both of your VGA sockets, I'm not sure?). Here is the SGI site with the opamp circuit...

http://www.roosmcd.dds.nl/oldsite/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Asus TNT2 card must have had a similar LCD panel driver on board, and this is most likely why they used the jack plug instead of a 3-pin plug? (The main difference is that the panels need a higher voltage to blank sufficiently, hence the extra circuit.)

I don't think you'll need the E-Dimensional dongle... I don't know a huge amount about them, but if it is just a simple pass-through for the SDA signal, then you will still need to find a 3-pin plug to connect to the opamp circuit. However, I think the E-Dim dongle needs to be activated with on-screen colour codes to set it to specific modes (sync doubling etc, which you probably don't need anyway). What I would do is buy a short VGA extension cable, carefully remove a small section of the insulation, find the wire which connects the SDA pin, then splice a wire into the SDA wire, and hook up to the opamp circuit.

OR, super-simple method - buy a pair of glasses which already have a splitter cable + shutter drive, and work with nVidia cards! The Elsa's are very cheap on eBay UK, no doubt they appear often in the US too? They are a cheap way of getting started if you just want to try S3D out.

You might have to do a bit of Web searching to see if the nVidia stereo mode works in SLI (or even if it outputs a sync signal from your cards) because I'm not 100% sure. You might only be able to use one card at a time in stereo mode - does anybody else know??

The simple opamp circuit won't have the variable delay of course, but it might work well anyway and is a much easier solution than the blue-line stuff. Things like blue-line decoding was only necessary for ATI cards, because ATI were short-sighted enough to not include S3D support as standard.

Same here about the projector situation - I've owned about six different projectors over the years and have upgraded each time I can afford to. I couldn't possibly afford one of the 120Hz projectors yet until the prices come down a lot. I've always loved the idea of S3D, so it's frustrating that there are so many "60Hz only" projectors / DLP TV's out there which are way too flickery for shutter glasses imho. (I've still yet to try ColourFlip mode on a 2x speed projector because it turns out my old projector's PSU has failed again.) If I can remember, I'll give it a try on my sister's X1 soon.

I actually have an extra chip on my controller for driving glasses like yours directly. It's more complex to drive it though, as I wanted it to work like the Elsa controller where the voltage on each panel also swaps polarity every other time a shutter is blanked. (to stop the LCD panels apparently degrading over time if the drive voltage is always the same polarity.)

You will probably get away with using the opamp circuit, but I would just make sure that niether of the shutters stays blank for too long (eg. if the S3D game / movie has been closed, or the opamp is still powered when the L/R input signal is removed.)

This is why I added the extra chip to my controller, so it could drive almost ANY generic glasses directly. If I could get the damn blue-line decoding working it would be great, but it's not playing ball. I could just order some PCB's for the current design, then add blue-line decoding at a later date (the controller works fine when running from VSYNC with an L/R swap switch, but it's a tad annoying getting the swap correct).

Would anyone still buy a controller which does the following?...

• Basic shutter control via the VGA VSYNC signal (will need to toggle the L/R swap switch occasionally when starting S3D games / movies).
• Probable future support for blue-line decoding (once working properly, and if ATI/AMD don't come up with a simple solution for sync output).
• No direct HDMI support, as too complex and expensive to implement atm. (although, workaround for HDMI support is possible if HDMI / VGA ports stay in sync).
• Support for the ColourFlip mode. (Only really needed for fixed 60Hz DLP projectors / TV's, more testing to do,
  looks like the shutters will be TOO fast with 4x DLP projectors, and still requires method for configuring for different DLP projectors / TV's.)
• Manual variable phase delay (to minimize ghosting with different DLP displays and possibly plasma TV's).
• Will still work for refresh rates above 60Hz (maximum refresh dependant on type of shutter glasses).
• Integrated shutter driver for controlling "dumb" shutter panels directly.
• VESA 3-pin output (to control any standard glasses with their own integrated shutter driver, or to control an IR emitter).
• VESA 3-pin INPUT (for adding the variable delay to existing VESA outputs on 3D DLP TV's. Could still use ColourFlip on older 60Hz DLP TV's).
• USB / mains powered.
• Upgradable firmware for new modes and features.
• Cost roughly GBP £30 / US $45 ?

Any takers, or suggestions (apart from: "Man, you type WAY too much!" )

OzOnE.

[slipstream]

This thread is interesting for dlp 60hz users.

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?show ... ntry992265" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[iondrive]

hi OzOnE2k10,

Forgive me for not reading all 5 pages, but I was wondering if you saw this thread:

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4372" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It starts out with the same idea but I've given up on it. My oscilloscope shows that it takes about a millisecond to transition from dark to clear so there is a max freq that you don't want to get to and the higher you go, the more percentage of time is spent in transition and during those times you're vulnerable to more ghosting as a result so don't go too high. Anyway, good luck with all that.

--- iondrive ---

[OzOnE2k10]

Ohhh - it seems I wasn't the first to think of this. I won't have to worry about the patent after all!

Well done for being the first to spot the potential benefits of this method. I still think it could hold promise, so you were definitely on the right track. Don't give up with it yet, I should might be able to help you with this....

If you get something like a PIC chip to measure the colour wheel timing with a simple sensor, it's actually not too difficult to figure out the colour wheel config. The good thing is that ColourFlipping is only really usefull at 60Hz, so the colour timing shouldn't change at all once the controller has worked out the delay values...

To configure the controller for different projectors / colour wheels, you just need a simple photosensor or small solar cell which is placed in front of the projector lens. You then start the test pattern program on the PC (very simple to write now, thanks to Peter!), then push the "learn" button on the controller (the test pattern program will display a black screen for a few seconds to give you a chance to push the learn button on the controller). The test pattern is simply a full screen of Red, Green, Blue, then possibly White (probably best with Black frames in between). The controller only needs to know the timing for the "starting point" of each colour. It can then do a simple "sort" of these starting points (for different colour segment orders). It will then know when to "flip" the shutter to the opposite eye for a whichever colour you want.

The controller just stores this timing info into EEPROM, and uses it when ColourFlipping mode is activated. It would be easy to download and analyse the timing data from the controller to the PC in cases where the colour wheel timing is complex, and doesn't auto-detect properly.

It still appears that it's best to swap the GREEN channel, so the controller just needs to swap the shutters when the Green segments start, then keep them swapped until the start of the next colour (Red in case of my projector). This sounds complex, but could be made to work quite easily (compared to the pain of writing the rest of the code in the first place.)

I should really give an update on the project as well. I didn't post for a while because I've come across a bit of a problem with the controller hardware... The good news is that I FINALLY got blue-line decoding to work , but there are a few issues with that as well.

The problem is that the PIC chip I'm using still isn't fast enough to get accurate timings for different resolutions. I can tweak the code and get blue-line decoding to work for say 1280x720 at 60Hz, but if I change the resolution, the point where it "samples" the blue line is not in the middle of the line any more.

I started off trying to measure the length (duration) of the entire blue-line code. I was blanking the right shutter if the blue-line was short, and blanking the left if the blue-line was long (this might need to be swapped depending on your display). This method didn't work properly at all, so now I'm just testing the middle of the blue-line to see if it's blue or not (black). This works great apart from the resolution problem mentioned above!

So, for my projector's native res of 720p, I can finally keep perfect shutter sync using the blue-line mode in IZ3D or StereoScopic Player WITHOUT the need to constantly keep toggling the LEFT / RIGHT swap when a game or video is first started! (also don't need to worry about sync glitches ever again.)

I'm running the PIC chip at the fastest it's designed for (20MHz), but this is divided by 4 internally, giving a 5MHz instruction clock. No matter how few instructions I use to detect the middle of the blue-line, the VGA signal "line" is already one-third of the way across the screen before the code even has chance to sample the blue-line. This can be made to work, but when you change resolution the decoding can go apesh*t again.

What I really wanted to use from the start was an FPGA chip, but I've looked EVERYWHERE for a small and cheap FPGA chip (or board) which would do the job. There doesn't seem to be such thing as a small and relatively cheap FPGA. Using an FPGA would have been ten times easier than trying to code the PIC chip because FPGA's are perfect for this type of work (which requires accurate timings).

I currently only have one FPGA board, which is the Pluto-II from http://www.knjn.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Even this board is overkill for what we need, but the main problem is that it costs $60, which is probably more than most people would be prepared to pay for the entire controller box.

So, what I will try next is to buy a much faster PIC chip. The current PIC chip only costs around £4 (USD $6.27), but the whole controller is already working out at around £40 (USD $62). A faster PIC would probably work, and would only cost around £8 (USD $12.53). The main advantage of the PIC is obviously cost, but also that most of the code is already working and the PIC contains a lot of useful hardware which helped reduce the number extra components needed.

I've spent a long time figuring out how the controller box would connect up, and designing the PCB layout for it. I just need to find a chip which will work for all resolutions now. I've attached an image of the current layout to give you all an idea of how it would connect. It is powered from USB, and can also be configured via USB (for ColourFlipping or variable delay settings). This gives a nice "solid" +5V for the controller to work from.

The VGA passthrough dongle will be connected to the controller via a 6-pin mini-DIN connector (similar to the 3-pin VESA connector, but the plugs can't be swapped by accident). The controller has a 3-pin VESA OUTPUT for controlling glasses with integrated shutter drivers, but the controller also has it's own on-board shutter driver for controlling cheap glasses directly (via a 3-pin stereo plug.)

When designing the board, I suddenly realized that using a 3-pin VESA (DDC) input would be fairly useless for most people who have a 3D ready DLP RPTV. The reason being that any 3D ready TV is already designed for flicker-free 3D, so ColourFlipping would be fairly pointless. I can't think of many good reasons to include a 3-pin VESA input on the controller when it's only really 3D RPTV's and some graphics cards which have this output (you might as well use the VGA passthrough on the graphics card anyway?) The only thing which might prove handy is if people want to try adding a variable phase-shift to the shuttering to reduce ghosting, although the other features of the controller (blue-line decoding and ColourFlipping) wouldn't even be required when doing this.

Ok, this post is long enough now I think. Basically, I'm still working on it. If you have any questions or suggestions, I'll try keep the replies shorter!

OzOnE.

[parasupaman]

# VESA 3-pin output (to control any standard glasses with their own integrated shutter driver, or to control an IR emitter).
# VESA 3-pin INPUT (for adding the variable delay to existing VESA outputs on 3D DLP TV's. Could still use ColourFlip on older 60Hz DLP TV's).

I am REALLY REALLY keen to find a timing delay controller to use with my eDimensional shutter glasses, with the hopes of reducing the ghosting I am experiencing. I would attempt to build it myself if I could find a fairly simple straightforward circuit for it.

[gonthorn]

I am very interested in this project, I have the same model projector as you (acer ph530) and while its a great 2d projector I have not had much luck with 3d. So far I have been playing around with 60hz flicker via an edimensional dongle and wired shutter glasses.

I would be very interested in a solution like this, either a custom dongle to increase the shutter speed, or a software mode (BLC ?) that does this colorflipping as you experimented with that could be used with say a home built controller (sell the schematic ?).

I would pay 75-100 dollars for a working dongle that would do this, as that would eliminate the need to purchase a 120hz dlp, like the new acer 120hz series I see talked about.

Don't let this project die, there are others out there that would jump on it im sure. Of course I would be willing to help with any testing regarding the acer ph530, but it seems like you are past that point.

[atariguy]

I'm looking for something simpler and wondering if you can help.
I just want a circuit to drive the old style 3D LCD glasses, like the ones that came with the sega, and the cheapies that come with the 3D field sequential DVDs and trigger them from the VGA sync pulse, or from the output of the DVI sync extraction circuit that is on these boards.

The old VGA passthru circuits from the 90s would do it, but they are all broken links these days.

I'd be happy to pay for a simple wired glasses controller that was driven by the VGA or DVI sync pulses.

I just want glasses like this to work with Peter Wimmers 3D player on the PC

http://tinyurl.com/2667pcc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tritosine5G]

...wow I know ozone from diyaudio.com !!! :

Cool, im goin to contact you. We'd want some powerled 120hz afaik?

[Hornet]

Hi,
little about VGA pass through controler (synchronised with synchr.impulses of VGA signal) is here:

http://www.stereo3d.com/3dhome.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

in section homebrew.

I use one of them with older DVD player with VGA output (but it is years ago and i dont know the concrete type of controler) It works good with projector too, or as enabler of 3D for Z800. (it is syntethised DCC signal to one pin in output VGA conector).

[OzOnE2k10]

Hi,

First thing's first - Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all !!

There's some great stuff going on in Petrus' original "DIY Shutterglasses Controller" thread atm - Sounds like they're getting very close to finding the IR protocol for the Samsung glasses...

I've been waiting for around three months now for a Chinese company on eB*y to release their new pocket oscilloscope. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like it will be released until next year. (The idea was to grab the Samsung IR protocol from a 3DTV in a shop).

Anyway, I just thought I'd chime in to say that I finally got my grubby hands on not one, but TWO "3D Ready" projectors! (slightly OT, but I'll get to the point soon)...

Firstly, I won a ViewSonic PJD6211 (£75) with no lamp, so sold as "parts only". The lamp is only around £100, and the projector powers up fine, so I should get that working soon. Less than two hours later, I won the "Golden Nugget" - an Acer H5360 for £100. This was also sold as "parts only", but when it arrived, it powered up for a while then shut down again. Amazingly, it still had a lamp inside which looked almost perfect !

So, why was it shutting down again? - Someone had left the colour wheel sensor unplugged! It had obviously had a lamp explosion previously, so there was a lot of dust and glass bits inside the optics. There was also some lens grease all over the inside of the main lens. After some careful dismantling and cleaning, I now have a fully working (and very bright) H5360 with apparently only 270 hours on the lamp.

Obviously, this has got me interested in the DIY Shutterglasses controller again. For some reason, Blue-Line decoding has been removed from the latest version of Stereoscopic Player?? It still didn't work too well with my controller anyway (especially at 120Hz), so I just used VSYNC toggling instead. The S3D on the Acer is very good of course, but having to use my old wired Elsa glasses is a serious PITA and takes some of the fun out of it.

There is a tiny amount of flicker at 120Hz, but excellent in comparison to the headache-inducing 60Hz (with my old PJ). The H5360 is around 30% dimmer when running at 120Hz, but still comfortable to watch. Watching 2500 lumens @ 60Hz is actually a bit TOO bright! There is almost zero ghosting at 120Hz with the Elsa glasses!

So, I'm now very interested to find the correct protocol for my Samsung SSG-2100 glasses. This would be a killer-app for a DIY controller, since I'm sure these glasses will start to drop in price quite dramatically over the next year. I will try playing with the software today to see if I can get my SSG glasses working and see how the frame sync works.

The SSG glasses do actually turn on when I put them close to my PC's LCD monitor! (Dell SP2208WFP). I noticed right away that the shutter rate was high (so, very likely fixed at 120Hz). The glasses also stay on for a few seconds even when moved away from the monitor. This suggests that the glasses only require a sync signal every so often to keep them going. This is a simple solution for reducing the possibility of glitches (when the IR signal is blocked for a short moment etc.).

I personally think that the nVidia kit is expensive for what it is, and I don't really want to buy yet another GPU for 3D. I don't really play games much, so I'm more interested in watching 3D Blu-Ray etc. It's nice to see that ATI are finally introducing quad-buffered support for improved playback, but this also means buying a new GPU series apparently?

For the time being, software pageflipping is working quite well for me for 720p 3D MKV playback (very few glitches, and frame-sync never flips). I just need to get these damn SSG's working now.

It looks like Stereoscopic Player does keep the left-right sync very well even if frames are dropped. So, I might have a look at decoding the e-Dimensional activation signal next (so you don't need to choose "Normal" or "Invert" mode when you first start a movie).

I can't promise much success with the SSG glasses, but I'll mess around with the code. It sounds like the guys on the other thread are working hard on the SSG stuff, so fingers crossed!

OzOnE.
P.S. I hope some of that post was useful to someone... I might be a tad drunk.

[cybereality]

Peter Wimmer had to remove blue-line coding from the Stereoscopic Player due to licensing issues.

[OzOnE2k10]

Ahhh, thought as much. There wouldn't be much point in removing it otherwise.

That means the "best" version with blue-line code is now 1.6.5. Oh well, I'll see if I can get frame-sync working with eDimensional / X3D type frame marking.

This would just require monitoring the Red and Green lines of the VGA connector instead. It might actually be easier to decode than blue-line and should stay in sync as long as the PC doesn't glitch and swap frames?

OzOnE.

[tritosine5G]

2200* 0.32 * 0.5 *matte white (1) = not too bright , should be twice as bright, very washed out colors bcause white+ untreated room

700*0.32*0.5 *matte white (1) = no chance,washed out colors bcause white+ untreated room

700*0.32*0.5 * flat silverscreen (2) = this is acceptable but not quite there yet, Im using it this way now. If projectors black level perfomance would be better, it would be a good scenario. Ambient light rejection is so nice, even 2d picture becomes 3d easily ( MFT , mind routine transform ), like POP!...

700*0.32*0.5 * curved silverscreen(10) = This is what I want, since black level isnt stellar anyway, I choose brightness.

Sony shutters are interesting , cause theres no outer layer polarizer on those ones, but you can ask sony to give it to you for free. So it can be traditional shutter , or if you have a polarization preserving screen , you can omit the outer layer. I want to try this, it'd cut down ambient light very nicely. Its like room correction in audio .