Techy question: Why do games 'toyificate'?

[andysonofbob]

Hi

Has anyone else noticed this effect? If you add tonnes of convergence to high depth the game world turns into a miniture model world - it (to coin a term) toyificates.

If you look at this link there is a list of games 3d Vision user say achieves this effect.
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?s=&s ... &p=1065969" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was wondering if you could shed some light to why this happens. Whats the science behind it as it were.

Many thanks

Andy

ps Secretely very chuft people have started using a term I made up in unrelated threads!

[Fredz]

It's called the doll house effect.

From : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereoscop ... _base_line" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For making stereo images of a distant object (e.g., a mountain with foothills), one can separate the camera positions by a larger distance (commonly called the "interocular") than the adult human norm of 62-65mm. This will effectively render the captured image as though it was seen by a giant, and thus will enhance the depth perception of these distant objects, and reduce the apparent scale of the scene proportionately. However, in this case care must be taken not to bring objects in the close foreground too close to the viewer, as they will require the viewer to become cross-eyed to resolve them.

[Dom]

Yes the doll house effect is supreme. It gives the best imersion and and is the true 3d effect. That is what stereo3d is all about but its sad because games studios are scraping the convergence with 3d-ready games and losing out on the reality of virtual reality. I also call it volume.

[andysonofbob]

Excellent!

Thanks for the replies. Toyification/doll house effect/volume. i did a search and there isnt any official terminology.

Now I have heard the term volume, I think comparing stereovision to audio is quite valid. I have been in a few bands in my time and I now think the dolls house effect isn't volume, it's gain. Surely volume is depth. Increasing convergence therefore is very much like increasing gain on an amp. As you apply more gain you get the pleasing sound distortion. As you increase convergence you get the pleasing toyification effect! Too much gain with high volume on an amp and it feedbacks, again, similar to the painful popout if have high depth with convergence.

Cool. What do you guys think?

[Dom]

Yeah distortion happens because the game was not made for that way. The camera are to close or something. Like using depth/separation your eyes are supposed to be farther apart for higher settings. I don't nesissarly think that is true beacause of the effect it can really have at max settings on anyone. Gain on your guitar or microphone can be set high with dithering, equalizer, higer amp volume/lowergain. Its all a matter of watts when it comes to stereoaudio, but with stereo3d its about the cameras abilities and how the pixels are shown on the monitor. Maybe crossweaving somehow would be better. I hate just to use allot of depth but as my memory remembers 3d-ready games are the best so far except for studios that make a 3d patch. 3d-ready games are almost doll house effect but not quite.

[Fredz]

Yes the doll house effect is supreme. It gives the best imersion and and is the true 3d effect. That is what stereo3d is all about but its sad because games studios are scraping the convergence with 3d-ready games and losing out on the reality of virtual reality. I also call it volume.

The doll house effect is not supposed to give the best immersion at all, pretty much the contrary in fact. It creates conflicts in the brain that causes mental strain in addition to the physical eye strain of the vergence-accommodation disparity.

From http://en.ledgb.com/detail-3755.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :

“When you take away cues, you create in the brain what is called the 'doll house' effect. The scene can be very precisely constructed, but it does not look real- it looks like a doll house- because your brain is saying that it's missing cues that are always present when viewing real scenes,” said Silzars. “It creates a vision-to-brain conflict that can make you feel nauseous and dizzy or worse.”

[Dom]

Yes the doll house effect is supreme. It gives the best imersion and and is the true 3d effect. That is what stereo3d is all about but its sad because games studios are scraping the convergence with 3d-ready games and losing out on the reality of virtual reality. I also call it volume.

The doll house effect is not supposed to give the best immersion at all, pretty much the contrary in fact. It creates conflicts in the brain that causes mental strain in addition to the physical eye strain of the vergence-accommodation disparity.

From http://en.ledgb.com/detail-3755.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :

“When you take away cues, you create in the brain what is called the 'doll house' effect. The scene can be very precisely constructed, but it does not look real- it looks like a doll house- because your brain is saying that it's missing cues that are always present when viewing real scenes,” said Silzars. “It creates a vision-to-brain conflict that can make you feel nauseous and dizzy or worse.”

Yes most games will give you strain and thats why it needs improved. The reason I say it gives you better imersion is because it makes the whole game more lifelike and real to look at. It gives you a better perspective of where everything is and the whole dynamic volume of all the objects. It gives you a better ratio of metric calculations of measurment and a feeling like your actually in the game without a filter layer on the screen. Almost like a real 24 hour clock 6-D , Time, Space, Sense, World, Weather, Touch. In Virtual Reality terms and graphics If you want to compare how you see in living life in your eyes to a 3d stereoscopic display then the dollhouse effect would be as near as there is so far on a 2d panel with stereovision. Its up to the game to adhear to the convergence to make things look metric/volume and not to have the strain and its showing with 3d-ready games, its just not there yet. Maybe theres no interest in it because alls the doctors seen was some lowsy games that never adjusted the camera and object crossweaving methods and individual object convergences ect.. It don't look like its been worked on ever for sain viewing.

[andysonofbob]

There is a thread on the nVidia site listing games which allow the DHE. It is clear from the thread many people enjoy the effect. Sure, it is a little odd at first, I even thought S3D had spoiled GTA4. GTA4 was one of the first games I played after taking the max depth plunge and GTA4 defaults to the DHE as you increase depth. At first I didnt like it but began to appreciate the fidelity of the effect and DHE kept drawing me back.

Regarding eyestrain. Has anyone really heard a case of this? Or is it just hearsay? I have aways been told one way of relaxing your eyes is to stare at distant objects. I have had to wear glasses for driving for a few years now. After a month of gaming in stereo - I can read number plates from the legal distance without my specs! Pressumably I was straining my eyes before because I was staring at the monitor in front of me. Now, as far as my eyes are concerned, I stare into the distance when ever I play games.

However, when I first got into my car after playing NFS:S, I felt very odd. I have played car games for hours on end in mono and have never felt this before. I can only guess that the part of my brain dealing with sight had been fooled whilst playing the game in stereo causing the weird feeling whilst actually driving. Pretty cool if you ask me!

[Dom]

Hi, I wanted you guys to see this information on how proper stereo3d settings are so they work without strain. It does not really solve game playing in all distances and factors at home as a consumer. But hopefully the studio are going to make it happen so we can have alot of effect/extreme or not so much at our choosing. Look here: http://www.siggraph.org/publications/ne ... g-it-right" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Fredz]

Regarding eyestrain. Has anyone really heard a case of this? Or is it just hearsay?

It's not just hearsay, the findings concerning the "doll house effect" come from a research paper published at the 2009 Society of Information Display by Patterson (Washington State University) and Silzars. The eyestrain caused by vergence-accomodation conflict has already been reported in several papers, the one referenced in this article was published by Banks et al. (UC Berkeley) in the Journal of Vision in 2008.

The point of these papers is not to badmouth 3D stereoscopy, it's to identify potential pitfalls and to find solutions. In his paper Banks made recommendations to reduce or avoid eyestrain and he recently published a paper in which he demonstrates an apparel to reduce the vergence-accomodation conflict. Silzars is the president of a consulting firm for display technologies.

Pressumably I was straining my eyes before because I was staring at the monitor in front of me. Now, as far as my eyes are concerned, I stare into the distance when ever I play games.

You still stare at the monitor while playing 3D games, even if your eyes converge to a more distant point. That is precisely what the vergence-accomodation conflict depicts.

[Fredz]

Hi, I wanted you guys to see this information on how proper stereo3d settings are so they work without strain.

Nice article, some things are clearer for me now. But I don't agree on everything he said, particulary concerning converging cameras (instead of parallel ones) and depth of focus (which I dislike).