Is the S3D HMD market dead?

[UndeadD3vi1]

A 640x480 HMD's DPI (Also refered to as Pixel Pitch) is roughly around 50um (Micrometer). You would not be able to see the individual pixels without the Optical Lense. 1 pixel is approaching the same size as a Red Blood Cell (7um) in the new-ish High-Res Kopin panels!

So we are pretty much there for DPI if these panels were used instead of the normal LCD panels in our desktop monitors. I don't see a bright future for extreamly High Resolution HMD's though, unless Optical Lenses are good enough to enable the eye to see at the Nano level!!!

[Okta]

A 640x480 HMD's DPI (Also refered to as Pixel Pitch) is roughly around 50um (Micrometer). You would not be able to see the individual pixels without the Optical Lense. 1 pixel is approaching the same size as a Red Blood Cell (7um) in the new-ish High-Res Kopin panels!

So we are pretty much there for DPI if these panels were used instead of the normal LCD panels in our desktop monitors. I don't see a bright future for extreamly High Resolution HMD's though, unless Optical Lenses are good enough to enable the eye to see at the Nano level!!!

The way around that is to make the panels larger with a lower dpi. You could get away with panels 2 inches across in an hmd.

[yomer]

A 640x480 HMD's DPI (Also refered to as Pixel Pitch) is roughly around 50um (Micrometer). You would not be able to see the individual pixels without the Optical Lense. 1 pixel is approaching the same size as a Red Blood Cell (7um) in the new-ish High-Res Kopin panels!

So we are pretty much there for DPI if these panels were used instead of the normal LCD panels in our desktop monitors. I don't see a bright future for extreamly High Resolution HMD's though, unless Optical Lenses are good enough to enable the eye to see at the Nano level!!!

You're right, you just need to see the big picture. So if you are looking at a distance of 9-12 feet, then we might not "need" anything beyond 2540p or 4320p.

[martinlandau]

Actually, I don't think the optics are much of a problem here. If you don't have the right microdisplay, the best optics wouldn't serve much. Optics are just a mathematically designed lens to correctly "modify" the image and bring it to the eye. If you have a 1024x768 display and you use a specially designed elliptical lens to bring 180° FOV, the image would be greatly distorted at the edges.

Yomer, I think you are failing to understand that forward resolution is all that is important, peripheral resolution is MUCH LESS important and distortion at the edges is not really a big drawback, certainly not for the advantages that filling up your peripheral visions gives to the sense of immersion. Have you seen a DOME IMAX film? Wide FOV can be as important or even MORE important than s3d for an immersive experience. The cues that trick the brain are better triggered by a wide FOV than a small FOV with s3d.

the leepvr HMD pages and http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Bourke's papers go into academic discussion while peripheral resolution does not really matter. Your brain gets many cues that will help with the immersive experince from the peripheral wide FOV and low resolution and high distortion does not matter so much in the periphery.

Yomer also do a seach for "fisheye" quake, I have already posted about it, it goes into more detail about how to play quake engine games in a wde FOV with less distortion.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08 ... plays.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In another thread Apple has put in a patent for a fiber optic HMD with wedge optics, here is a picture of the lens from the patent applications, can any experts tell me what they think the FOV of this device will be?

[yomer]

Actually, I don't think the optics are much of a problem here. If you don't have the right microdisplay, the best optics wouldn't serve much. Optics are just a mathematically designed lens to correctly "modify" the image and bring it to the eye. If you have a 1024x768 display and you use a specially designed elliptical lens to bring 180° FOV, the image would be greatly distorted at the edges.

Yomer, I think you are failing to understand that forward resolution is all that is important, peripheral resolution is MUCH LESS important and distortion at the edges is not really a big drawback, certainly not for the advantages that filling up your peripheral visions gives to the sense of immersion. Have you seen a DOME IMAX film? Wide FOV can be as important or even MORE important than s3d for an immersive experience. The cues that trick the brain are better triggered by a wide FOV than a small FOV with s3d.

the leepvr HMD pages and http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Bourke's papers go into academic discussion while peripheral resolution does not really matter. Your brain gets many cues that will help with the immersive experince from the peripheral wide FOV and low resolution and high distortion does not matter so much in the periphery.

I've seen fisheye quake before.

I see your point on how the peripheral resolution is not important. And it would seem right to have a low resolution/slightly distorted image at the edges, if you never moved your eyes without moving your head. Assuming you always move your head and center your targeted object. But what if you wanted to see some detail at the edge of a scene by just moving your eyes. You would then see a lower quality image. I've seen dome IMAX films and I often find myself looking at the edges without moving my head(even though I know that if I move my head the screen won't move with me ). I don't know if dome IMAX films are made so that everything important is focused on the center of the screen, but as I said, I find myself often moving my eyes to the edge (When I move my eyes looking at a real life scenery I don't see distortion at the edges of my FOV.

At the end I would think that it would be best to have a blend of larger, curve, higher resolution display with the proper lens. If you had a relatively high resolution screen with optics to render the effect you described; then I wouldn't be able to see a clear image by just turning my eyes to the edge. And we cannot have very large display close to your eyes to look at the edges (I think you would feel strange, I have to think it through). What I described would mean that the slightly curved display and lens would help a lot to have the best immersion. This is what I'm thinking and what I feel I would need. It's not as simple as in the image, the lens has to be more complex ...

Check this paper, it might be of interest to some.. Wide FOV HMD

Is my logic flawed? If so, I won't take it personally. I'm just throwing ideas.

[cybereality]

The thing I'm still wondering is what exactly is the hold-up on getting some decent optics on consumer HMDs? The optics are just made of glass, maybe even plastic, so how expensive can that really be? And the properties of light are fully known, so there is little to no cost on the R & D end. Plus there were old-school headsets like the VFX1 that reached 45 degrees FOV, why have we gone back in time? I couldn't care less if the peripheral vision was low-res, blurry and distorted. It could be black & white, I don't care. Just bring out something with a *bare-minimum* of 60 degrees FOV. Maybe then we would be in business.

[yomer]

Since it's not popular yet. You cannot make business of selling low cost HMDs in low quantities at a low price. The answer: Sell low cost HMDs in low quantities at a high price. Until people demand these devices in the millions, then they can lower the price.

[yomer]

The current trend will continue at least until 2011-2012. Until then, we're getting the new VR1440 relatively soon. They should run cheaper than the z800. Vuzix seems to be going the extra mile by revising their drivers often. That's what might give Vuzix the edge.

The only thing a z800 owner can hope for is third party support, since emagin won't develop their own proper drivers; Nvidia is long gone and iz3d seems to be getting there. I think it's more important to have first party support and a good third party backup support (in case some applications work better with the other driver).

[martinlandau]

"but as I said, I find myself often moving my eyes to the edge (When I move my eyes looking at a real life scenery I don't see distortion at the edges of my FOV."

When I was a young kid, I was doing about 180MPH down a long highway late at night in an area where many deer like to jump out in the highway in front of you, I can assure you the tunnel vision was very acute, Jesus's second coming could not have made me move me eyes around.

The last few dome imax films I saw, you could let your eyes wander but you have to be strong! Teach those eyes who is boss! Make them look only straight ahead and don't let them meander and wander around. I agree with you Yomer, you may want to look to the side with your eyes, it is naturally instinctive, but since this ruins the effect, make yourself look forward, you can do it! I have faith in you! This past weekend I saw star trek in the imax dome, and the first few minutes of the film I did as you say, my eyes wander to the edges of the screen to see some action off in the distance very frequently. After about 10 minutes though I convince my eyes that to get the best experience I need to only look straight ahead for the rest of the movie. It took some coercing, but they finally surrended, and perhaps maybe only 1 or 2 more times during the rest of the movie did some quick action sequence on the side of the screen make my eyes dart away from looking straight ahead.

[DavidGhast]

1280x1024 60FOV HMD's are being sold, i dont see what the issue is.

[Okta]

1280x1024 60FOV HMD's are being sold, i dont see what the issue is.

Link?

[Okta]

Here is a bargain for anyone with lots of spare cash http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 0330748513" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[DavidGhast]

1280x1024 60FOV HMD's are being sold, i dont see what the issue is.

Link?

http://www.virtualresearch.com/products/vr1280.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its $10k. Not a big deal if you got really good APR.

[cybereality]

1280x1024 60FOV HMD's are being sold, i dont see what the issue is.

Yeah, being sold for $15,000 dollars. Give me a break! How many of those you think they sold in the past year? Ever?

[DavidGhast]

Its 10k from the company, 15k from the resellers, which goes to show the amount of inflation going on in the market.

Im assuming these high end HMD companies are run by engineers, which would explain everything else.

[genetic]

Hello, I am the man who is living the dream that you all have. I know how stupid that sounds but in a buggy, high maintenance sort of way, it’s true.

My story is simple. I got a Z800 for $550 about 3 years ago and spent the next year and a half developing my “dork corner”. The amount of trial and error to get a feel for the z800 and use it in the best way possible is ridiculous but I’m glad I did it. The next big step was perfecting the art of smashing 4 wiimote all around my body and getting the ducks, jumps, leans and walking livable.—still not perfect but lately the responses are really quite tight. ((the jumping is actually a simulated lunge where my feet don’t fully leave the ground and my chest wiimote detect the upward motion.

My next big discovery was the…I can’t remember what its called (I’m at work) I think the Logitech MXair mouse. I velcroed it to my headphones and the leap in headtracking smoothness was astounding, well, for a $140 air mouse anyway. The one problem with that is that if you are 100% still for about 30 seconds it will lag on your next movement for a split second as some kind of save battery feature. But staying completely still is a lot harder than it sounds and almost never happens.

I won’t lie; there are so many bugs and frustrations with my setup that even an AAA title feels like a mod sometimes. But what I’m doing is real. Not the Matrix, no. But a lot closer than you think.
I log about 13 hours a week. But only 5 of those hours are in full VR. When I play multiplayer with my friends I usually sit down and only use headtracking and S-3D. I use Full VR for single player where I have the freedom to stop and fix bugs without bothering friends. My girlfriend calls it “spinning” because I march in place spinning is circles. Can I really be the only spinner out there? No, I have read and talked to a few others but we are defiantly rare.

Finally, there is an unconfirmed rumor that the Z800 will work on the IZ3D drivers without the 60fps problem if you have the newest firmware. I will finally get around to giving that a try soon because iI will buy it when I visit the U.S this summer. (They want $70 to ship it to my resident country.)

[crim3]

The thing I'm still wondering is what exactly is the hold-up on getting some decent optics on consumer HMDs? The optics are just made of glass, maybe even plastic, so how expensive can that really be? And the properties of light are fully known, so there is little to no cost on the R & D end. Plus there were old-school headsets like the VFX1 that reached 45 degrees FOV, why have we gone back in time? I couldn't care less if the peripheral vision was low-res, blurry and distorted. It could be black & white, I don't care. Just bring out something with a *bare-minimum* of 60 degrees FOV. Maybe then we would be in business.

I wonder that myself, too. All I know is that giving a certain shape to a lense is very expensive unless it's a regular shape like a section of a sphere. Unlike any other manufactured thing, a lense needs a perfect surface. Anyway, it doesn't sound to me enough argument to justify that a consumer level HMD can't have those 60º as a minimum and all the new HMD's point to 30-35 degrees.

I miss peripheral vision a lot. In fact, I'm lately thinking that a new HMD should have 2 little low quality displays with very low quality lenses (or even none) at each side just to cover that area. Even leaving a big gap between the main displays and these peripheral displays. In my opinion, filling that extreme peripheral area of the vision would rise the visual experience greatly without those expensive displays/lenses systems of professional HMD's. Not a solution, but an easy enhancement.

genetic: 2 weeks ago I told to a guy with an interesting project in mind. Also a z800 owner. He's planning to use an empty garage for VR, and a USB extension cable for the z800, wearing a single LED high over his head and track the position of this LED (and hence, he's own position) by triangulation with two cameras (wiimote cameras in this case). I find it very interesting assuming you have the room for that. You see, you are not alone

[Okta]

Hello, I am the man who is living the dream that you all have. I know how stupid that sounds but in a buggy, high maintenance sort of way, it’s true.

My story is simple. I got a Z800 for $550 about 3 years ago and spent the next year and a half developing my “dork corner”. The amount of trial and error to get a feel for the z800 and use it in the best way possible is ridiculous but I’m glad I did it. The next big step was perfecting the art of smashing 4 wiimote all around my body and getting the ducks, jumps, leans and walking livable.—still not perfect but lately the responses are really quite tight. ((the jumping is actually a simulated lunge where my feet don’t fully leave the ground and my chest wiimote detect the upward motion.

My next big discovery was the…I can’t remember what its called (I’m at work) I think the Logitech MXair mouse. I velcroed it to my headphones and the leap in headtracking smoothness was astounding, well, for a $140 air mouse anyway. The one problem with that is that if you are 100% still for about 30 seconds it will lag on your next movement for a split second as some kind of save battery feature. But staying completely still is a lot harder than it sounds and almost never happens.

I won’t lie; there are so many bugs and frustrations with my setup that even an AAA title feels like a mod sometimes. But what I’m doing is real. Not the Matrix, no. But a lot closer than you think.
I log about 13 hours a week. But only 5 of those hours are in full VR. When I play multiplayer with my friends I usually sit down and only use headtracking and S-3D. I use Full VR for single player where I have the freedom to stop and fix bugs without bothering friends. My girlfriend calls it “spinning” because I march in place spinning is circles. Can I really be the only spinner out there? No, I have read and talked to a few others but we are defiantly rare.

Finally, there is an unconfirmed rumor that the Z800 will work on the IZ3D drivers without the 60fps problem if you have the newest firmware. I will finally get around to giving that a try soon because iI will buy it when I visit the U.S this summer. (They want $70 to ship it to my resident country.)

You are indeed living my dream man, i am envious. I hope you can guide me as i collect bits and pieces to get my rig going.
My first wii remote and nunchuck are on the way, i also ordered a cheap ir emitter. This is all to go with my cheap crap argo goggles (and maybe my projector later). I tried holding my mouse pad to my chin and using the mouse for a test head track and i was blown away with how cool HMD head tracking can be .

After watching the VR Gun video i considered getting the Gyration Air mouse but all the reviews I read on the net say it would be terrible for FPS. Is the Logitech good enough for a total head tracking solution or use as a gun for fps?

[yomer]

Genetic, as much as I admire what you're doing and would like to replicate it. I would wait a tad, because I think Vuzix is going to surprise us with their new VR1440 (it will have better features than the z800), and emagin is not far away of using their SXGA displays on a new version. I would wait on plunging $800+ for a used or new z800.

[martinlandau]

Here is a bargain for anyone with lots of spare cash http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 0330748513" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Octa this dude got the deal of a LIFETIME! 90,000 dollars new, 1280x1024 with 120degree FOV for 250 dollars off of ebay!!!!!! Why did no one compete with his bids??!?!?

http://www.thelostbrain.com/post/2008/0 ... play!.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[yomer]

As much as I envy that guy. I bet that he might be blind right now. Those displays are 1" CRTs!!! There's a reason why they don't sell those anymore.

[Okta]

The guy actually posts here and sold a high end HMD on ebay the went for about $300. I would have bought it but it was in peices so i was sceptical if it would ever work again.

[genetic]

That is an amazing find! I want one too. Just think. If consumers weren’t so stubborn when the Z800 came out (“What! Only 800x600?” “What! Worse contrast than my current monitor?”)

If the Z800 had had the word Nintendo written on it.

MAYBE we could all have amazing large FOV HMDs by about now.

[bbloff]

As much as I envy that guy. I bet that he might be blind right now. Those displays are 1" CRTs!!! There's a reason why they don't sell those anymore.

That's the first time I've heard CRT monitors will make you blind. Is this a serious post? I dunno, maybe I've been living in a cave, but the reason they don't sell CRT monitors is because of the bulky size. Increased eye strain, maybe. Blindness? Not that I've heard. An LCD that is too bright can cause eye problems as well, but you're not going to wake up blind one morning.

[UndeadD3vi1]

I wouldn't ever want a Radiation Tube that close to my face.

[Tril]

CRT monitors generate X-rays but they are normally designed so that the levels are safe. Most of it is absorbed by the thick glass.

[yomer]

It was obviously an exaggeration. It won't blind you, but it must really hurt after a long hour of gaming. Let alone after several days/weeks of long sessions with the HMD.

[yuriythebest]

It was obviously an exaggeration. It won't blind you, but it must really hurt after a long hour of gaming. Let alone after several days/weeks of long sessions with the HMD.

yeah I completely agree about the "blindness" - I'm one of those ppl who are (or became) very sensitive to CRT's - I've used em from childhood and now I am especially "vulnerable" to em- prologued use causes eyestrain even if the screen is at 100hz and red spots appear in the whites of my eyes (they go away by morning though) - using shutters exaggerates this problem- in face my eyes became so sensitive that even walking through a slight breeze was uncomfortable and so was looking into the distance- my eyes would become all teary. Luckily after switching to LCD's my eyes more or less recovered and these problems went away- though if I use CRT's for several hours they begin to slowly reappear. sorry but I'd never buy any CRT-based HMD or indeed take one for free cause I value my eyes too much (and I have a 19', a 15' and a 13-14' CRT to the right of me- quiet testimony of my experiences)

[Rosomack]

It was obviously an exaggeration. It won't blind you, but it must really hurt after a long hour of gaming. Let alone after several days/weeks of long sessions with the HMD.

yeah I completely agree about the "blindness" - I'm one of those ppl who are (or became) very sensitive to CRT's - I've used em from childhood and now I am especially "vulnerable" to em- prologued use causes eyestrain even if the screen is at 100hz and red spots appear in the whites of my eyes (they go away by morning though) - using shutters exaggerates this problem- in face my eyes became so sensitive that even walking through a slight breeze was uncomfortable and so was looking into the distance- my eyes would become all teary. Luckily after switching to LCD's my eyes more or less recovered and these problems went away- though if I use CRT's for several hours they begin to slowly reappear. sorry but I'd never buy any CRT-based HMD or indeed take one for free cause I value my eyes too much (and I have a 19', a 15' and a 13-14' CRT to the right of me- quiet testimony of my experiences)

Now you scared me. I had no idea that it could lead to such problems, as I used a crts for a long time without any. Good for you that it wasn't permanent.

Next time I plan on sitting in front of a crt monitor I'll remember to take a geiger counter with me

[yomer]

Weird, I saw a video of some guys at CES 2009, anouncing the VR1440 and the wrap 920AV from Vuzix. Yet, only the latter gets a "coming soon Fall 2009" tag on vuzix's webpage. I have two theories for that.

1. Vuzix is releasing the VR1440 on fall also, but they're not bragging about it because then people would stop buying the VR920.
2. The Economic crisis is really onto them and there will be no VR1440 and we won't have any new models until the end of 2010 or 2011

Does anyone have any more theories?

*Yuri: I'm sorry to hear that. The good thing is that CRT is almost in the past; just don't look directly at the sun.

[cybereality]

Does anyone have any more theories?

I'm thinking the VR1440 will come out spring/summer 2010. I mean, its already July, they would have been promoting it more by now for a 2009 release. Plus there is no official section about it on their website, while they have other "coming soon" products like the CamAR and Wrap 920AV. I don't think they are withholding information just to sell more VR920s. Its probably just not coming out for another year.

[yomer]

Or.. they could have canned the VR1440 to wait until a 720p version is ready for mass production.

[yuriythebest]

Now you scared me. I had no idea that it could lead to such problems, as I used a crts for a long time without any. Good for you that it wasn't permanent.

Next time I plan on sitting in front of a crt monitor I'll remember to take a geiger counter with me

yeah I think it's just that one of my eyes seems to be particularly sensitive or has weak veins or something like that- most people I know do report discomfort from CRT's but usually to a lesser degree. In any case there is no serious danger and any ill effects seem to go away after a day or so of LCD-relaxation.

[Rosomack]

Yeah, LCDs are pure goodness compared to the CRT rad-boxes Feels like looking at a piece of paper (unless you love over-bright images )

[mayaman]

I was browsing koppins news blog and found this.

CyberDisplay(R) SXGA LVS display: This displayhas a 1280 x 1024 resolution in a 0.77" diagonal size. This display is targeted at emerging high-end applications such as advanced night vision, virtual reality and 3D HD gaming. The CyberDisplay SXGA LVS display can be driven by Kopin's A251 or A920 driver ASIC.


Is there an HD gaming headset on the way?

[cybereality]

I would love to see a new high-res HMD but they really need to work on the optics too in order to create something compelling. We will see, I haven't heard anything.

[wuhlei]

I wonder if you could get the lense custom made to make the screen look bigger.