New 1080p DLP Projectors capable of 120Hz?

Post by **Tony** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:49 pm

Hello all,

I have been researching to try and find an answer to if the new 1080p projectors coming out can output over a 85Hz signal? Would it only work with DLP 1080p's instead of LCD 1080p's? That got me looking at any projectors capable of a higher refresh than 85Hz.

First a little background. We have an Infocus DepthQ with a long range wireless emitter kit from eDimensional along with wireless shutter glasses. This works great, but it only 800x600 native maximum pixels (but 120Hz). We run simulation software that needs high resolution analyzing and lots of text and it is not quite adequate.

If the new 1080p projectors can do 120Hz, then it should be possible to treat is just like the DepthQ, or any other projectors able to accept this type of signal (some 85Hz models come to mind). I realize there may be some issues with delay between the syncing of active shutter glasses (eDimensional in my case), but there is a custom emitter that should take care of this issue:

http://3dflightsim.com/product/3D-1002/1002.htm

It has a delay knob, as well as an invert switch for swapping eyes.

So my question is if there's anyone who knows, can try this, or is able to confirm/deny the possibility of this set-up? Can anyone confirm any of these projectors can actually do their specified max vertical refresh? Here's a few links to some projectors where I caught a glimpse of this higher vertical refresh spec:

-- only 100Hz, but DLP
http://www.benq.com/products/Projector/ ... ifications
-- uses the same chip as the BenQ, but doesn't say Hz anywhere on web
http://www.optomausa.com/Product_detail ... uct_id=297

-- LCD 1080p's, but they say 120Hz
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HC4900.htm
http://www.projectorpeople.com/projecto ... 20HC5000BL

-- 1400x1050, but 120Hz
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6824219027

-- XGA DLP, just for comparison, 120Hz
http://www.mitsubishi-presentations.com ... L550U.html

Can anyone help me with some advice? I did see the recent paper on comparing lots of DLP projectors capable for 85Hz, but it didn't include any of these far as I could see.

Thanks!

Post by **deisama** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:12 pm

unfortunetely, no "consumer projector" with a resolution higher than 1024x768 can do more than 60hz.

http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2007-05.pdf

From the article, in the last paragraph before conclusion:

"there is understood to be a bottleneck in the DLP engine which limits the data rate (and therefore the frame rate at high resolutions)"

Post by **Tony** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:58 pm

Thanks for the reply.

I have seen this article, and it is current as of January 2007. The issue though is that since then, there have been many advances in projectors being released. Their testing doesn't have any of these new units I linked to as part of the scope.

I was hoping that someone knew of a source that has seen these new projectors either in person, or online that would help determine if the limitation has been overcome (like the DepthQ).

There is a large push towards 120 Hz mainly for video/movie/gaming frame rates, particularly movies where they have 24 fps and NTSC with 60 fps, making 120 Hz the logical "play all native" frame rate. I guess these aren't necessarily on DLP yet, but LCD has hit 120Hz.

Post by **Abydos** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:49 pm

Oh man I really hope so too. Forget 85 Hz, even 120 pains me after a few hours lol!
But I finally saved up enough money for a projector, don't know how much longer I can wait.

Ive looked through every forum I could find recently and havn't found any evidence that recently released projectors have progressed at all. The guy that wrote that article posted recently on another forum without any good news although I am still hoping that if I can wait my patience will be rewarded.

Post by **sharky** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:42 pm

hi! have you thought abouth a dual projector setup?

the total cost are more or less the same as the edim model (including silverscreen and filters) and you do not have that kind of problems.. don'T know if it could be suetable for your needs.

bye

sharky

Post by **Likay** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:10 pm

Projector and shutterglasses is an issue because you need a projector that works with shutterglasses and you also have to deal with a great disadvantage: You'll have great loss of light since the shutterglasses shut out 50% of the light. Light is almost always an issue with projectors.. (however i don't have that problem... lol). It's more expensive with a passive polarized rig but it's at least 3 times better. Ask me or Jahun. He have a very good thread on the subject in diy-section.

cheers

Post by **Tril** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:54 pm

I can't answer the question of the original poster but I have something to say about what Likay said.

A passive polarized rig (with two projectors) works well but I think I would prefer to get a one projector rig if I wanted to watch a current S-3D movie. The current S-3D movies combine 2D scenes with S-3D scenes. For this reason, you usually wear the glasses during the S-3D scenes and remove them during the 2D scenes. If the alignment between the two projectors is not perfect, you won't notice it during the S-3D scenes but you'll notice it during the 2D scenes, especially if you remove your glasses.

Post by **Jahun** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:42 pm

To Tril:

The issue of 2D in a 3D movie, seems very minor to me, with respect to the issues of active shuttering.
My projectors have lense shift, so alignment is *very* near perfect, you wouldn't notice at all in a 2D scene with glasses on, perhaps slightly with glasses off.

For me personally, this issue is very minor. Sure, a single projector is easier though but I'd rather not live with the downsides, which weigh alot heavier to me..

I have absolutely no clue what future S-3D movies' format would be though, I suppose playable on both types but not sure.

Post by **CraziFuzzy** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:33 am

OMG, I am so craving drivers for this TV. I have a HLT6189S being delivered in 3 days, and would LOVE to get this working in 3D. I have some older H3D's that I am hoping i'll be able to hack to the SYNC port, but if I can get nVidia drivers to send 3D to this TV, I would even pay for new glasses. I have a problem paying a liscense for each game I want in 3D to DDD, so i will have to wait for a nVidia alternative. Also, the list of games on the tridef site is very disappointing, so it's a moot point anyways.

PLEASE, we need nvidia to add a new protocol to the stereo drivers that will work for these new Samsungs!

Post by **sharky** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:17 am

hi!

nvidia cant simply add a tvcompatibility without explicit permission... personally i don'T think it will ever happen

bye

sharky

Post by **CraziFuzzy** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:46 am

sharky wrote:nvidia cant simply add a tvcompatibility without explicit permission... personally i don'T think it will ever happen

Where are you geting this information? There is zero precident for this idea, and to say that would mean that most linux drivers are illegal. Do you know that this is nvidia's stance on it? or was this an assumption based on the fact that they just aren't out yet?

sharky wrote:bye

Post by **sharky** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:54 am

i haven't read it anywhere.. its just my logic.

maybe i am wrong, but think this way:

samsung is a big company.. if DDD is making the drivers for them then samsung asked for it... if they wanted nvidia to do it then they would ask nvidia.. but as i saidi don't knwo but the logic tells me this..

bye

sharky

Post by **CraziFuzzy** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:57 am

I don't believe Samsung realy has much to do with it, as the format is actually TI's. the DDD software should work on the new Mitsubishi sets as well. Though maybe that is illegal too.

Post by **Jahun** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:01 am

I doubt that that will be an issue.

Samsung will need and want content, so does TI. No one has any use for 3D if there is no content to work with.

So I assume they'll grant permission without much problems, there is no need why not.

I think.

Post by **Neil** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:01 am

I think you both have a case here.

I think NVIDIA is different from Linux, though.

Linux, in my opinion, has a very open source wild west nature, and driver support doesn't have to be formalized.

NVIDIA is a different ball game. What's happening here is a brand name is being inserted in their driver, and I think that brand would want a say in how they are being represented. For example, Samsung has a business relationship with DDD. They may not want NVIDIA eating at their driver revenue, so they may be resistant to the idea of NVIDIA producing drivers for them. This is just a hypothetical example that is not based on anything, and is not a representation of fact.

Regards,
Neil

Post by **sharky** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:04 am

well if i have a company and build the product XXXXXXX and you have a company wich COULD code the software for it then i make a deal with you.

you will code my software but i will pay you in some way, (wichever it is...) and due to the fact that i paid you i am going to cover your work in some way. could be trough a protection system, or trough a hardware solution, or trough a legal solution... acutally i don't know.. it could also be that there is absolutely no protection but it would sound strange to me...

hope you understand what i mean.. as i said those are all my personal thoughts and i don't know what acutally is going on.. (obviously)

Post by **Jahun** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:09 pm

not sure.

If the checkerboard way the Samsung works is not patented (guess not, seems trivial), there is no issue. You can code software to work with that.

For instance the IZ3D solution seems better patentable to me, it is quite alot more specific.

Not sure though.

And didn't even think about perhaps Samsung not wanting their name in a "beta" driver, valid point there..

Ah well, who knows. Interesting all this at the least.

Post by **Abydos** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:25 am

Thanks for the information on the passive polarised setup guys, I wasn't even aware that it was an option

Am I right in saying that this overcomes the limitations that a solo dlp setup with shutter glasses has with the resolution, refresh rate and the field sequential 3d problems via composite, s-video and component interlaced ?

If so I think I will save up a lot more money for 2x hd 1080 or sxga+ projectors.

Post by **CraziFuzzy** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:28 am

Dual Passive Polarized projection is definately the best way, as, like you are asking, there is no refresh issues. No Sync issues. Advanced 3D theater's use this method, with stunning results. (remember's Disnyland's Captain EO show)

Also, nvidia drivers work great in this mode...

Post by **Likay** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:46 pm

hehe... one of those passive polarized projection guys here.

And yes: Dual polarized projector setup with a decent silverscreen is (well, at least for now) the Rolls regarding viewing 3d.
It's 3d on a big screen, more people can view it. (actually: If i'm not really great at a game i really enjoy just watching somebody who's good at it). Some of the best entertainment... hehe.
Ghost rejection is among the best there is! The only better solutions i can think of is those with dual displays that doesn't merge in any way. (like HMD's, planar setups where you simply use a mirror, crosseyed viewing is also definitely ghosting free but not really a great option hehe)
Back sides: It's a bit unpractical. Firing up the beamers just for 10 minutes of gameplay isn't good for the lamps which (at least in my case) more or less force me to schedule when i'm about to play. For some this might be a bigger hazzle then for others though. The lamps are really expensive. Have that in mind. It's not free to play even when you have the rig. I had mine for about a half year now and already got 2x300 lamp-hours haha. But i really enjoy the experience and it's worth every penny!

Now, if we also could have an updated nvidiadriver it wouldn't taste too bad.

cheers

Post by **Tony** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:50 am

Yeesh, this thread took off! I was off on a business trip for a week (plus I got to see an iz3d in person, but I couldn't get my eyes to see Warcraft 3 correctly).

Thanks for all the posts!

The main suggestion is the dual projector setup, which I've looked into before. I personally like it, but the demands of a more mobile 3d for my company requires a non-technical setup. Basically we have a company laptop with Linux, the DepthQ stereo projector, and the eDim shutter glasses. I can train the guy going to give a presentation with it that all he needs to do is hook it all together, and it just works. The dual projectors worried me that they'd have to mess with adjustments, aligning the picture perfectly, and taking the special screen along with them. Great for stationary setups though.

So therein lies my problem, I've been hoping for a new projector that can out-do the DepthQ because the largest disadvantage of it is the lame 800x600 resolution. Brightness is ok with the lights dimmed or off, and the stereo effect is good.

I actually just bought an Optoma HD80 1080p projector for my personal addiction to HD, I'll be able to test on that a bit with stereo, but have doubts it will work.

I've also got another thread with my issue regarding what to do about CRTs dying out for 3d. After seeing the iz3d in person, I wasn't convinced it was better (but it may have been driver/setup issues). That topic is over here:
http://mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=698

Post by **chrisdfw** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:57 am

If you want a single projector solution that does 1024X768 I would use the Sharp XR10-X. You can get them from ebay refurbished for under $750. They have a newer model that may also work. The XR10-X does 85 hertz and that is almost flicker free in the right lighting conditions. I don't notice any in normal gaming. Be careful which projector you use because most have issues with doing 85 herz and have color issues. There are also issues with Time Offset. The sharp scored the best.

Read this:

http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2007-05.pdf

Post by **sharky** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:33 am

hi chris..

welcome to the board.. hope to see you here often...

Post by **chrisdfw** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:16 pm

Thanks Sharky!

I've been keeping up with 3d ever since I got my eyescreams so many years ago.

I didn't really like the results until using a dlp projector with some new edimensional shutter glasses recently so now I am seeing how many of my favorite games and how many new demos work well in 3d.

I hope that 3d finally starts to take off. We'll have to see if Nvidia gets some new stable 3d drivers out and see if DLP manufacturers will start producing real 120 hz capable projectors. I won't even acknowledge the new DLP 3d internal projection sets until they can be supported by free drivers that work on all DirectX games.

The biggest thing keeping 3d from taking off is the public won't be aware of it being possible without seeing it in person. You can't get across how immersive it is on a 2d web page. I hope someone starts demonstrating games in 3d at conventions. I'll try to demo them at next summer's QuakeCon in Dallas TX if I can get someone to give me about 5 feet by 10 feet of floor space. I built a fully enloclosed simpit (4 feet wide by 7 feet long with 60 inch diag screen) that can play flight sims, driving games, and FPS games. It has 2 viewports in back that I can put 3d goggles in so 2 can watch in 3d while one plays in 3d. I figure that would be a hit at a convention or trade show.

I'll try and attach a picture of my "pod" or simpit:

Or this link:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3135 ... al1rv7.jpg

Post by **jackeberg** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:22 am

ha ha that is one nice little gamingbox you got there. Just make sure you get some airflow inside so it doesn´t fill up with corpses.
I might build something like that later but made to blend in with an apartment. The sound is the biggest problem but lots of dampening will fix that.

Yeah, now I finally understand the good stuff about passive dual projection, a single projector would actually cost more for me then two budget passive ones.
Now I only need a good silverscreen for cheap.

With dual passive I can use any dlp projector right? No 85Hz limit or worry about the lumen. I can also aim for 720p intead of 1024x768.
Calibrating doesn´t seem like to much of a problem. I don´t have to do it everytime. Do I need to buy a lense or can I add that later for even better performance?
Is silverscreen obligatory or will it work to some degree with just white?

Post by **chrisdfw** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:24 pm

I know you need a good silverscreen meant to keep the polarity of light. You also need good quality polarizing lenses for in front of the projector and have to be carefull not to let the lenses melt. A good pair of polarized glasses for the viewers is also a must. I believe you are correct that you can go with any projectors that match but I am not sure if the LCD projectors already do some type of polarizing that may interfere with you doing addtional polarizing.

I prefered the easier method of using a single DLP capable of 85hz and shutter glasses.

Post by **jackeberg** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:46 pm

The lcd projectors need a really expensive lens but at 70% light passthrough it might just be worth it. Nah, 700+$ is scary expensive.
I will have to aim for two dlp projectors.