My inexperienced, strictly "by the facts" S3D rant...

[tomgiboney]

I have been fascinated by 3D for a while now. But have just recently had the itch to buy a home setup. First, I was taken in by the low prices of big screen DLP HDTVs (Samsung at first, but very hard to find now, and now I'm stuck on Mitsubishi WD65737 to be exact). Now, I'm wondering if it would be worthwile in the long run.
Fact one:
3D Ready DLPs use the checkerboard method and ONLY this method. (Right?)
Fact two:
Field sequential movies (dvd, avi, etc..) can be checkerboard encoded and displayed on DLP screens using certain stereoscopic movie players. (Which ones are best and which are free?)
Fact three:
Checkerboard 3D effectively halves the resolution FOR EACH EYE. People tend to consider this half-rez 3D because each eye feed must be combined in order to reach full-rez.
Fact four:
Frame Sequential (or Page Flip) 3D is full resolution FOR EACH EYE. Most people consider this to be the best S3D experience. This is what the eventual '3D standard' for Bluray & broadcast 3D will be, although I'm not sure how yet.
Opinion? or Fact five?:
DLP sets will still be able to view the new '3D standard' but only through a software conversion process. But this is a ways off still (about a year or so) and I'm sure set-top conversion boxes (and computer programs)will be sold to make DLP sets compatible with the new '3D standard'.)

The setup I wish to purchase:
Mitsubishi WD65737 & Elsa Revelator Wireless glasses w/transmitter

Will this be a good setup for watching existing Frame Sequential 3D DVDs, movies, video files? Will it continue being a decent setup a couple years from now?

Please chime in and help a newb get some sort of closure on these topics... Thanks to you all!

[Dom]

Hi that setup seems like a good choice for the medium that is out now. Really if you were going to use that for pc gaming that tv set would be a choice make. Just remember if you are going to be futher away from your set you need a bigger one. You should look for the dynamics of setting up a true 3d space for stereoscopic and then decide on your tv set. Most all the newer 3d tvs are hdmi and I suppose dvi so connecting to any futher player and definitly an htpc would always work. Most of the films that are coming out are already filmed into frame sequenctial format and all you need is a parallex to separate eyes for distances and volume. Also doing conversions like 720p to a lower resolution does not degrade the quality to much. It's just the size of screen that makes the difference. Usually the bigger the screen the more resolution you want. This is why Imax need highest pixels so no one can see them also flim has no pixels. I have a 32 inch lcd and I use nvidia 3dvision at a resolution of 1024x1280 on some gaming and does not pixelate with distortion. Just remember its not that great wearing glasses having objects and the tv units frame in the way to much. It may be best to square off and plum up your cabinet or tv stand bordered. It would be best at farther viewing distances I know.

[tomgiboney]

Yes, S-3D PC gaming is certainly going to be the primary use for this setup. But I would like something that offers a good S-3D movie watching experience as well. I would say the normal watching distance will be around 7 feet. Perhaps even closer.

Thanks for your input!

[Freke1]

Hi
All big TV's capable of 3D uses checkerboard at the moment.
Stereoscopic Player (free) will play Frame Sequential Full HD (for each eye) videos and Nvidia's 3D driver supports the DLP HD TV's which means there is nothing (at the moment) You can't watch on that TV (games, videos, pictures, DVD's).

As long as we have these multiple input/multiple output programs/driver then there is no problem, but if they make some standard where You have to buy a 3D Blue Ray player which only works on new special 3D displays then we are all going to have to upgrade.

Since there is no 3D Blue Ray movies and no 3D Full HD (for each eye) displays out there, You would have to be patient if You want that. But if Full HD 3D movies is what You're after (sounds like it) then You may choose to wait (or make Your own) because there is just none out there, nada. Everything is homemade videos (like mine) or low resolution DVD's or red/blue or animated/commercial clips or kids movies etc. The 3D movies You see in the theater is not available to buy.

[tomgiboney]

Hi
All big TV's capable of 3D uses checkerboard at the moment.
Stereoscopic Player (free) will play Frame Sequential Full HD (for each eye) videos and Nvidia's 3D driver supports the DLP HD TV's which means there is nothing (at the moment) You can't watch on that TV (games, videos, pictures, DVD's).

That is great news as I had strongly suspected that to be the case. And instead of Nvidia I could use iZ3D driver (free ATI ) right?

As long as we have these multiple input/multiple output programs/driver then there is no problem, but if they make some standard where You have to buy a 3D Blue Ray player which only works on new special 3D displays then we are all going to have to upgrade.

It is my belief that while in the beginning, those fancy new 3D Blue Ray players will probably only be compatible with the new 3D displays (*I say this while looking directly at Panasonic*), HOWEVER, eventually, there will be a way to convert the new format (using either a set-top box or feeding it through your computer and using a new software player) and display them into multiple outputs including DLP Checkerboard.

Since there is no 3D Blue Ray movies and no 3D Full HD (for each eye) displays out there, You would have to be patient if You want that. But if Full HD 3D movies is what You're after (sounds like it) then You may choose to wait (or make Your own) because there is just none out there, nada. Everything is homemade videos (like mine) or low resolution DVD's or red/blue or animated/commercial clips or kids movies etc. The 3D movies You see in the theater is not available to buy.

I can spare the money now and will most likely be getting the setup I mentioned. So, on sites like underground3dmovies.com and http://www.ultimate3dheaven.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; those movies will be poor quality? Or just not HD? As long as they are full DVD quality and as long as I avoid the crappy 2D->3D conversions, then I think I will still be pleased. And the anaglyph to full color (mostly) conversions look promising. Is this what you have been doing? Also, I would like to see an unbiased frame sequential 3D movie ratings list for what's worth it and what's not.

All in all, I believe the gaming aspect alone will completely make this worth it. I just would like to share the 3D experience with my fiance through great quality full color 3D movies so I have something else to justify the purchase... as well as having bragging rights But it'd have to be something of decent enough quality to brag about it.

[Dom]

Hi I wanted you to know about the hdmi input on tv's at how the bandwidth is used currently. Some months have passed for just an upgrade to high color hdmi ver. 1.3 . It used to be version 1.2 that just supported 1080i/p signal with some lag. Now engineers say that they need the hdmi version 1.4 to have their full 3dhd format at a standstill. The newest tvs due out spring are going to have this version. I think they need extra bandwidth from the cable because they may broadcast dtshd and dolbyhd too for home theatre with the 3d content dish/cable network. The main point is that the manufacturers need to check data on sales and see if any converting chips need to be added to their settop boxes or just have the cable/dish company do it as a request for each tv set. Everyone who invests in any 3dtv should have the right to a cable broadcast that is entertaining and worthwhile to keep.

[koshien]

I would really wait for the 50" Panasonic plasma display, which should have hdmi 1.4 and be 1080p per eye... it's not going to be out that late and it will probably cost 2000$...just wait a few months.
Don't you want to watch the AVATAR blu-ray in full quality?
But if you want it now, then I guess your choice is ok...!

[tomgiboney]

I would really wait for the 50" Panasonic plasma display, which should have hdmi 1.4 and be 1080p per eye... it's not going to be out that late and it will probably cost 2000$...just wait a few months.
Don't you want to watch the AVATAR blu-ray in full quality?
But if you want it now, then I guess your choice is ok...!

Yes, I would rather not have to wait 8 or more months for 3D gaming/movies. And even then it'll only be a measly 50" (so there will probably be bigger sizes, but at what price?). That is rather small in today's realm of big big screens.
Another thing, when Panasonic does release their 3D system, there will be a while before companies produce enough content for it to be justifiable. Yeah, Avatar will be available at launch probably, but just one single full-3D movie? I'm not paying $2200 (which is the price Panasonic told my fiance Rachel when they came to Wal-Mart Home Office to showcase their new setup, which includes the 50" HDTV, a 3D BluRay player, and 2 sets of wireless shutter glasses) just so I can watch Avatar in full 3D. Which I doubt (even though I haven't experienced) that the full 3D effect is that much more spectacular than the half-rez 3D effect of checkerboard DLPs. I'm sure there's a difference, albeit a small one from our brain's point of view.

3D DLP has been out for a while now, and there are plenty of things that support it at this time. So, I believe it's best to go the DLP route right now, then give the new blossoming 3D sets some time to mature... say a couple years. And the HDMI 1.4 standard isn't anywhere close to being determined. Even though Panasonic said they'd go it alone if a standard wasn't reached, I still believe they will wait as long as they can for it. Which could put their new 3D HDTVs release date much later next year.

[koshien]

And the HDMI 1.4 standard isn't anywhere close to being determined.

For what concerns hdmi 1.4, it has actually been approved and it has been official for some months by now

Maybe you are right... I actually thought just like you (but in smaller terms), when a few days ago I bought a 22" Zalman Trimon monitor.
Since it was cheap, I thought it would have been wise to get one immediately and wait some time for the big companies to come up with the best 3D tv technology (HDI 3K laser tv seems promising...).
I just didn't see why I had to pay more for a 22" 120 Hz lcd monitor, when plasma technology is probably best suited for shutterglasses technology...
And I hope in a few years I will be done studying and will have a job (my first paycheck on a huge 3D Tv, granted ).
So, I guess it really depends on how much this dlp tv is going to cost you...

[tomgiboney]

And the HDMI 1.4 standard isn't anywhere close to being determined.

For what concerns hdmi 1.4, it has actually been approved and it has been official for some months by now

So the 3D aspect to the 1.4 hdmi standard has been resolved? There is now a 3D standard??

EDIT: Oh, wait... it's BluRay that is working towards a 3D standard. But then why/how is 3D mentioned in the 1.4 hdmi standard?

[koshien]

Here it is: http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/index.aspx
But, as you say, the standardization for 3D blu-ray is still in progress

[tomgiboney]

My setup will be a Mitsubishi WD-60C9 (the 60" C9 is basically identical to the 60" 737 model). Also I will be using XpanD X102 DLP-Link shutters with it. I feel it's best to go with DLP at this time since it's 3D technology is almost perfect. Sure, it does a checkerboard pattern, but when your brain combines the two images from a distance, it will look almost identical to a full page-flip 3D setup. ... I will chime back in when I have the setup running and give an in-depth review on it.

[cybereality]

Cool, man. I would certainly be interested in a full review. I am also looking at the WD-60C9 as it seems to be the best bang for the buck by far. Let me know how that goes.

[tomgiboney]

OK. I have had this Mitsubishi WD-60C9 for a little over a week now and I believe I have enough for a good review.

What I have:
WD-60C9 3D ready DLP
XpanD X102 DLP-Link glasses
iZ3D driver 11.1b1-2
PC setup:
Windows 7 64bit
Radeon HD 4870 512mb GPU
Intel Q6600 quad-core overclocked to 3.321ghz (x8 multiplier, 415mhz bus speed - 1661mhz rated FSB)
4GB DDR2 Corsair Dominator (2x2GB running at 1106mhz in dual channel)

Using an DVI to HDMI adapter and an HDMI cable I have it plugged into HDMI 1 on the back of the television. Due to overscan, I have set a custom HD resolution (based off 1080p) of 1824x1028 which is just about perfectly sized so nothing is cut off at the edges and there are no black borders.

First step is to make sure the game is set at the correct resolution, which for some reason must be at the custom desktop resolution I set. For a while I was fairly upset because most games I tried wouldn't work right and finally I made the connection that those games were in 1080p and not my custom 1824x1028. The problem was you could see both images in both eyes with some odd checkerboard distortion (big blocks, not the small checkerboard pattern). So if you ever see this, make sure you change your game resolution to match your desktop resolution.

To start a 3D game I first have to set the iz3D driver to enable with hotkey or just enable (I prefer hotkey). For some reason if I leave iz3D starting with windows or even leave iz3D running and NOT stereo disabled when I restart my computer, then after logging in my desktop is completely black, nothing shows aside from the cursor. To remedy this I have to go into safe mode and uninstall iz3D completely. But as long as I don't leave it enabled before I restart then everything remains good.

Third, once you are in game and the iz3D driver is enabled you must enable 3D on your TV. You do this by hitting MENU, then hitting LEFT on the directional pad to go to the 3D option. With the 3D option highlighted the 3D menu will open below, at this point I always want to hit DOWN on the directional pad but you must hit ENTER. Now your cursor selection is in 3D menu, hit DOWN to enable 3D. Also, I should note that if your iZ3D settings do NOT have the swap L&R checked, which is the default setting, then you should go ahead and set the 3D to REVERSED on the TV 3D menu. You can also swap L&R on the fly using CTRL+F8 in-game. So it really doesn't matter what that setting is on the TV I don't think.

Once in-game and fully running in 3D you can make adjustments using the + and - on the Num Pad for seperation and SHIFT+NUM+ and SHIFT+NUM- for convergance.

Now for my take on the TV and the 3D experience in general.
IT'S AMAZINGLY AWESOME!!!
hehe, yes, it is an amazing experience.

CONS
I should note a couple flaws though, the screen material on the TV is good but there is a problem with sparkle or whatever term is used for this. On pure white images, such as the notepad background I'm typing this on, you can move your head and see a sparkly like texture in the white areas. It is also true in very light, bright colors, but is most noticable on white. This is really the only complaint I have with the television. But if your not looking for it or thinking about it, eventually you won't even notice. During gaming, you'd be hard pressed to notice it even if your looking for it.

In 3D gaming, the ghosting is non-existent aside from white surfaces. In FEAR 2, whenever I see an overhead floruescent light, I can see a faint ghost image in each eye on either side of it. This can be fixed to some degree by decreasing your seperation, but if you like a high seperation then this may be a bit of a problem. I'm not entirely sure which the culprit is, the XpanD x102 glasses or the TV itself. Also, when I walk under one of those lights, with seperation fairly high, I see a ghost image of my hand/gun too. Please share your thoughts on this.

Some games do not work well at all with the iZ3D driver, such as Age of Conan. I will not sacrifice the sheer beauty of that game for 3D. I think I need to pay for the TriDef 3D driver also to see how well it works. Does it have checkerboard output too?

Another drawback to iZ3D is that even though DX10, 11 is supported in the beta drivers, it is NOT support with the free ATI DLP output... unsure if it works on the regular DLP output however.

PROS
3D gaming in 1824x1028 on this tv is truly a remarkable experience. It takes some tweaking, but once you have your tv settings set good for your room/lighting conditions, then it really shines. Small text is totally readable and there have only been a few times I noticed any difference between the checkerboard 3D and page flip. And those were very minimal.

For the price (under $1000) this television is a marvel to behold at 60" and is sure to impress with it's 3D capabilities when paired with a relatively powerful PC. And I got my pair of X102 glasses for $107 shipped because I'm lucky and found them in stock on provantage.com ... I believe they are out of stock now though.

I'm really wishing I could upgrade my PC to the 'wish' build I listed in my other post... My current setup is starting to show signs of weakening on this high of a resolution.

Well, there is my initial review. I probably haven't touched base on much, but that's what's great about a forum. Ask me anything about this setup and I will respond asap.

[cybereality]

OK cool. Thanks for the review.

[Okta]

Stereoscopic Player (free) will play Frame Sequential Full HD (for each eye) videos and Nvidia's 3D driver supports the DLP HD TV's which means there is nothing (at the moment) You can't watch on that TV (games, videos, pictures, DVD's).

Hey! Where do i get stereoscopic player for free? I thought you need to pay the $50 to use it longer than 5 minutes?

[crim3]

In 3D gaming, the ghosting is non-existent aside from white surfaces. In FEAR 2, whenever I see an overhead floruescent light, I can see a faint ghost image in each eye on either side of it. This can be fixed to some degree by decreasing your seperation, but if you like a high seperation then this may be a bit of a problem. I'm not entirely sure which the culprit is, the XpanD x102 glasses or the TV itself. Also, when I walk under one of those lights, with seperation fairly high, I see a ghost image of my hand/gun too. Please share your thoughts on this.

I've read many times that DLP TV's and projectors using checkerboard can be fine tuned to reach zero ghosting by tweaking the timings of the signal. I have no experience in this, I'm telling just to make you aware of this so you can search for some information and don't miss something so important.

[tomgiboney]

In 3D gaming, the ghosting is non-existent aside from white surfaces. In FEAR 2, whenever I see an overhead floruescent light, I can see a faint ghost image in each eye on either side of it. This can be fixed to some degree by decreasing your seperation, but if you like a high seperation then this may be a bit of a problem. I'm not entirely sure which the culprit is, the XpanD x102 glasses or the TV itself. Also, when I walk under one of those lights, with seperation fairly high, I see a ghost image of my hand/gun too. Please share your thoughts on this.

I've read many times that DLP TV's and projectors using checkerboard can be fine tuned to reach zero ghosting by tweaking the timings of the signal. I have no experience in this, I'm telling just to make you aware of this so you can search for some information and don't miss something so important.

I'm not quite sure how it can be fine tuned, I did not see any settings regarding tuning of the sync signal anywhere in the TV menus. But I do have an update on the bright white ghosting... it is the XpanD x102 glasses causing it. It's as if the x102 timings are 'almost' perfect but not perfect enough to keep bright white from bleeding through a little. I can confirm this because I tried another pair of DLP-Link glasses and they do not allow ANY bright white ghosting through. Please do not ask about this other pair of DLP-Link glasses though, I am under contract not to discuss them. ... Yet.

[tomgiboney]

Stereoscopic Player (free) will play Frame Sequential Full HD (for each eye) videos and Nvidia's 3D driver supports the DLP HD TV's which means there is nothing (at the moment) You can't watch on that TV (games, videos, pictures, DVD's).

Hey! Where do i get stereoscopic player for free? I thought you need to pay the $50 to use it longer than 5 minutes?

I only used it for 5 minutes =)

[tomgiboney]

Here is an update to my 'review':

Tridef 3D Ignition 2.5.3

WOW!!! I thought iZ3D was good, but I didn't know what I was missing! Tridef is, imo, superior to iZ3D in many ways. In my review I said how I saw ghosting on the bright flourescent lights in FEAR 2... well, NOT with the Tridef! The autofocus works almost flawlessly (a few times it went berserk on smoke, but only in one obscure part in FEAR 2. I tried WoW with Tridef and the ability to split the game into 3 parts: gun, scene, sky, is totally amazing! I fine tuned the WoW interface (gun) to be almost right at screen depth, made the scene fixed to an in-ward depth (not much pop out, but it can happen) and made the sky at auto I think and it just looks amazing!! I will definitely be purchasing the Tridef 3D driver soon! I can't wait until they release DX10,11 capability. And being able to play Crysis with shadows and all the eye candy in 'Virtual 3D' mode was sublime!! And totally playable! I sure didn't know what I was missing... but don't get me wrong, iZ3D is alright, but they don't seem to be focusing much on DLP checkerboard, so perhaps their S3D outputs are better than their DLP outputs?

I have not observed ANY, I repeat ANY ghosting using Tridef drivers! ... The only thing leaving me wishing is to get Age of Conan to display in 3D with ALL the eye candy on and in full DX10... or at least in DX9 with all eye candy, I think I'd be happy with that.

[Neil]

Good to hear you have been getting positive results.

You should submit games to M3GA with the DDD drivers. It's sad to see just seven submissions for this competitive solution.

Regards,
Neil

P.S. Make sure to turn auto-convergence off, and don't include "Virtual 3D" games - that's cheating!

[tomgiboney]

Good to hear you have been getting positive results.

You should submit games to M3GA with the DDD drivers. It's sad to see just seven submissions for this competitive solution.

Regards,
Neil

P.S. Make sure to turn auto-convergence off, and don't include "Virtual 3D" games - that's cheating!

How is auto-convergence and Virtual 3D cheating exactly? If they make the overall 3D experience more fluid, enjoyable and with the most complete compatibility as possible? (on a DLP and ATI 4870 setup, anyway)

[cybereality]

Well I agree that the "virtual 3d" mode can be considered cheating for the purposes of certification, but I find the auto-convergence actually works well in some games. For example, on GRID it makes the replays watchable since it switches camera angles quickly and static settings (like with other drivers) cannot cope. However with a game like Tomb Raider Underworld the auto-convergence is annoying since the camera is dynamic. But it is a feature and can be advantageous in some situations so it should count.

[GHG]

Auto-convergence is a life saver with the IZ3D drivers. It stops things going crazy as soon as the perspective changes.