Some Newbie questions - What camera, spacing, etc.

[kkentert]

OK- I'm SURE all of these questions have been answered on this forum, but there is SO much info, I can't find anything I've Looking for really.

First things first - Isn't there a good book, or beginners guide (step by step everything you need to know) guide to filming in 3D?

Next are some specific questions.
1- I know spacing should be about 2.5" apart. What If I want to film with 2 sony VX2000 s? they'll be a little further apart I believe. is that OK? How wide is too wide?
2- Are there any plugins for final cut (OSX) that assist in merging the videos with red/blue or Green/magenta?
Is there any "realD" type software for the mac to make projectable polarized movies?
3- When using two color glasses, what are the true tricks to eliminating ghosting? (SOOO many youtube videos look terrible with all the double imaging"
4 - Is it better to be far away and soom in on things? Or is it better to be close?
5 - If you have two cams, should they always point STRAIGHT forward, or should they sometime face in slightly? (like if something is close to the camera)
6- What cameras are other people using with good success?
6- Is there any way to set up a CHEAP (less the $300-400) camera rig that still takes good video?

These are just some of my starter questions. Thanks in advance to anyone who answers. Again, I know there MUST be answers to all these things in the forum, but i've been having a heck of a time digging them up.

[kkentert]

One more question. Are there any cameras that can be synced so that you can ZOOM both cameras the same amount at the same time?
Thanks!

[Likay]

First things first - Isn't there a good book, or beginners guide (step by step everything you need to know) guide to filming in 3D?

Probably but trial and error is the best way to learn. Experiment a lot before you shoot something important as with all photographing.

Next are some specific questions.
1- I know spacing should be about 2.5" apart. What If I want to film with 2 sony VX2000 s? they'll be a little further apart I believe. is that OK? How wide is too wide?

In case the cameras are too big then simply put them as close together as possible. Instead when you shoot: try keeping a distance (2-3 meters) to objects you're shooting since the effect of 3d is more disturbing than pleasant otherwise. Make experiments. Interesting experiment is to increase the cameraspacing to very high distances and shoot objects (at higher distances of course). This is called hyperstereo and gives a "dollhouse" effect of entire cities. Search for hyperstereo on flickr for examples.

2- Are there any plugins for final cut (OSX) that assist in merging the videos with red/blue or Green/magenta?
Is there any "realD" type software for the mac to make projectable polarized movies?

I don't know. I use winxp/win7 with stereomoviemaker and stereophotomaker.
Note about "polarized" movies: Always when you're trying to make movies: try to make them in a full color preserving format ie side-by-side or over/under and then view them using a stereomovieplayer even when using anaglyph. I'm not sure how to play these movies on a dual projector rig with osx though. Most codecs are configurable in many ways and maybe you'll find a decent setting for anaglyph. Stay away from interleaved format if you want to compress a movie though.

3- When using two color glasses, what are the true tricks to eliminating ghosting? (SOOO many youtube videos look terrible with all the double imaging"

Youtube compresses the videos uploaded and i can imagine some extra ghosting/artifact are induced here (especially if the original format is anaglyph and yt3d tag not used). Some of the sources might really be bad from the beginning though. When uploading to youtube i suggest using side-by-side right image first and then simply add yt3d as tag (enables youtube3d for the vid). This will give viewers all stereooptions needed.

4 - Is it better to be far away and soom in on things? Or is it better to be close?

Generally you should keep some distance to what you're filming when doing 3d. Zooming works ok and actually gives a "macro" feeling at some times. For a "fake" makroeffect you can simply zoom in the cameras while still keeping a distance of just below one metre. You may in this occasion have to toe in the cameras so the focus works allright. Otherwise always keep your cameras parallell!

5 - If you have two cams, should they always point STRAIGHT forward, or should they sometime face in slightly? (like if something is close to the camera)

See above.

6- What cameras are other people using with good success?

Don't know about specifically good cameras for stereo but canons can be used with a hacked software for canons only: Stereodatamaker. Myself i'm using canon ixus 970is's.

6- Is there any way to set up a CHEAP (less the $300-400) camera rig that still takes good video?

You can try building a beamsplitter using a single camera but you will loose quite an amount of the image because of the mirrors. However sync will allways be perfect using this. Is using dual cameras you of course need to the best you can with those money.

That's about what i can help with. Still not complete though.

[kkentert]

Thanks Likay!
You gave me a pretty good place to start!

[cybereality]

A good book on the topic is '3D Movie Making' ( http://www.amazon.com/3D-Movie-Making-S ... 0240811372" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). I do own the book but sadly I haven't got the chance to read it yet. It supposed to be the authority on the subject.

1 - In terms of spacing the cameras, 2.5" is the normal placement. However you can still film in stereo at slightly different distances it will just give a different effect. For example, filming small subjects close up (macro) you would want the cameras closer while filming large landscape / cities you might want the cameras further apart. It generally depends on what you are filming so just experiment a bit.

2 - Always master your videos in a full color format like side-by-side and this can easily be displayed in anaglyph using the Stereoscopic Player or even YouTube3D. I use Windows so I don't know of an FCP plugins.

3 - To get the lowest ghosting, use good quality anaglyph glasses like the Pro-Ana.

4 - It is better to be close, I think, because zooming is very problematic in stereo for a number of reasons.

5 - Most people say to have the camera parallel (straight forward) although I think they should be ever so slightly toed-in.

6 - I am using dual Creative Vado HD pocket cameras with decent results. The whole rig was under $300. ( http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4165" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). Here are a few videos I took with the cameras ( http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=4306" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ).

7 - Some older cameras by certain manufacturers (Sony, etc.) that support the LANC protocol can be synced like this with something called the LANC Shepherd ( http://www.ledametrix.com/lancshep/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). I don't believe they have anything like this for modern digital HD camcorders.

[kkentert]

Thanks cybereality!

It seems to me like when things are closer (4 feet away) it would be beneficial to toe the cameras in just a bit, but that's just my own thought, and it's something I know nothing about....BUT

If toeing them in to the focus object IS a good idea, has anyone tried mounting cheap laser pointers to the top of the cameras to get an exact center line? is that a good idea, bad idea, or just not worth it?

As for your cameras, I'd LOVE a setup for less than $300 like yours, but it seems as if those cameras are a little jumpy with movement. is that true, or is it just youtube? Since I'm going to be filming scenes with people and abject moving a lot would those cams be good enough to get smooth movement?

Thanks again!!!

[cybereality]

Those cheap pocket cameras don't have any image stabilization so they can be very jump at times. Works fine on a tripod of course.

[kkentert]

I'm not really talking about the handheld jump. I'm talking more about the fact that when people walk by, it looks as if they're being shot at 18 FPS.
Have you noticed that? the movement isn't all that smooth?

[Fredz]

First things first - Isn't there a good book, or beginners guide (step by step everything you need to know) guide to filming in 3D?

The "3D Movie Making" book seems to be the reference of the subject from the reviews I've read, but here is a list of documents you may find useful too :
- Stereoscopy - Taking the pictures : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereoscop ... e_pictures" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- How a 3-D movie is made – from Home to Hollywood 3-D : http://www.the3drevolution.com/3dscreen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Foundations of the Stereoscopic Cinema : http://3d.curtin.edu.au/library/foundation.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Autodesk® Stereoscopic Filmmaking Whitepaper : http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/s ... inal08.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Stereoscopy in Cinematographic Synthetic Imagery : http://accad.osu.edu/~jeisenma/Pubs/stereoDepth.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- The StereoGraphics Developers' Handbook : http://www.cs.unc.edu/Research/stc/FAQs ... ndbook.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Calculating Stereo Pairs : http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/m ... reorender/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- 3D Short film "The Shadow of Justice" : http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5922" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Ciné3D (in french) : http://www.cine3d.ch/cine3d/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kkentert]

awesome sources Fredz. Thanks!

[Freke1]

Hi

The final 3D video will be much bettar if:
1. the cameras are 100% locked together (so I just bought this dual camera bar: http://cgi.ebay.com/120mm-QR-Lens-Plate ... 56321ae6d4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(seems very good and solid)).
2. the recording starts simultaneously. This guy uses the remote: [youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2cbbJrCgtY[/youtube-hd]
I just press the record buttons simultaneously which doesn't work 30% of the time (bad sync).
3. You have stereo sound on the cameras so that You can use the stereo sound from just 1 camcorder.
4. You make a steadycam Like the Merlin Steadycam.

For macro video You need the cameras closer than eyedistance and for special effects like this: [youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--wEBr_TrOk[/youtube-hd]
You need more distance.

Digital camcorders that have a CMOS sensor can have a "jelly" effect when You pan fast and some cameras can jerk/skip frames (my cheap 720p camcorders do) so search Youtube for testshots and download them to see how they look. I think You need 60 fps for cars to move fluently.

There is a 3D plugin for Sony Vega (and others) but I have never tried them.

If You use toe in then things in the distance becomes unwatchable just like in real life (You can't read a camera manual and watch the clouds at the same time) but there are no rules. It's a free dee world .

[kkentert]

Thanks for the additional info Kreke1.

I just bought 3D Movie Making on half.com.

As for starting recording at the same time, if you're matching in post, does it matter? Or does that possible milisecond of being off create sync problems?

Thanks again!

[anotherFrench]

hi Freke1
the 1rst vidéo "glidecam2000pro...) looks really cool, this is the kind of setup I was hoping to build for my aiptek z600, problem is I usually transport my rig in a bag and re-assemble it once I get where I want to film something so I don't understand how it is possible to align both cams when only 1 of both screen can be seen.
I tryed it many times, even tryed with an external screen replacing the 1 I couldn't see but it's big and heavy (many batteries) so the only option I found was to buy a larger dual caméra bar and mount both cam with a greater distance (about 5" instead of 2.5)

about starting both cam together in sync, I found out that instead of pushing both start buttons at once, it's better to keep them pushed 1 or 2 sec and release them together.
doing this seem to work pretty fine, seeing both screen I can adjust the Vertical alignment and toe in at wish and the sync is not 100% good but really not bad.

I didn't even edit all the last vids I made since I film this way, just convert the vids to the right format and it's ready to go

[Freke1]

@ kkentert: the max missync is 1/60 of a second on my cameras. It can ruin shots of flying RC jets, running horses, waves, leaves in the wind etc. since they move so darn fast.

@ anotherFrench: It's not possible to align them 100% with the viewfinder I think. I allways have to align the videos in StereoMovie Maker anyway to get the amount of depth I want. Even the 3D photos from the Fujifilm 3D camera are not aligned. I will try the release trick next time thanks!

I like my 2 cheap Canon Ixus 70 (shown in a 4$ waterproof bag):

since I can take them anywhere (but they only shoot 640*480 video). They fit in the leg pocket on my shorts which is great!

[Likay]

When using compactcameras i think then canons definitely is the best choice! They're supported by stereodatamaker (a "Canon Hack developer Kit" software that works splendid but only with Canons! Thanks for tip Freke! I use it all the time!). I can also adjust videoquality when shooting movies a lot more than with the standard canonmenue. However there are also millions of settings that can screw up your photographing though. It seems like videos are in better sync when using sdm even if i have to use my hardwired button for those.
Using twinned cameras and taking photos on moving scenes is almost impossible due to mis-sync between the cameras. 1/10 of a second is enough to ruin a photo if the camera or the scene moves. You will often get more than this difference when hardwiring the cameras. The flash also gets you into trouble since one image can be significantly brighter than the other.
Stereodatamaker syncs the cameras more or less as fast as the flash goes. I have some photos taken of a dvd glued to a 30000 rpm (500 revs/second) minidriller. The image is blurred because of the fast movement but the disc have exactly the same angle in both left and right eye images! No matter how many times i repeat shooting!

[foop]

Perhaps you should learn more about optics and cinema technology before jumping into what is its most complex form. If you want a consumer-grade stereo solution, you either need to wait a few years for something to come out, or use that 3d webcam thats out now. As for hacking something together yourself, goodluck.....