Battlefield 2

Post by **Neil** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:26 am

Post by **LukePC1** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:58 pm

It looks like the menue is not always at the same depth: some of the 2D things in the middle of the screen look very near to the observer. At least nearer than the rest of the 2D objects. Furthermore nearly all shots aren't very deep, but blurred. When appear these effects? Upon death?

In contrast to CoD2 the crosshair looks acurate. Did you use other settings or is it the missing deepness and popout?

I hope the driver 'gets' this game better in future, for all those, who buy the screen, so that S-3D becomes MAIN-STREAM in the near future

Post by **Neil** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:51 pm

The reason it's blurred is a tear gas grenade went off and/or a regular grenade or explosion happened. With the NVIDIA driver, you would see the effect, but the left and right hand sides of the screen would not have the effect - it would look weird.

You can get deepness no problem, but the pop-out is not possible yet. The game is getting tuned up.

Neil

Post by **Jahun** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:44 pm

ok, I do not want to be the bad guy *again*, but this is no 3D. None.
What you see is a shifted image compared to a hud. No 3D at all in any of those screenshots.

Come on, it is not that hard to spot. If you must, take Photoshop and put the 2 images onto eachother, they match 100%, by a slight shift.

Obviously all the postprocessing works and crosshairs etc etc if you are just shifting.

I am all for being positive, and for instance Far Cry looked hot (some odd trees aside), but this is just no 3D. Having it here as if it were makes me doubt the other titles. Be honest, check things, and promote correct stuff.

Post by **Neil** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:08 pm

Hello Jahun,

"Here are some screenshots. The profile needs some work, and this is based on a beta release. You can't get a pop-out effect yet, but these shots demonstrate the post processing effects in BF2 and BF2 Special Forces."

I think the challenges were outlined, and nothing has been misrepresented. If you play the game, you will see that the separation adjusts according to the distance you are from the object. The further objects have wider separation, while the close objects have tighter separation.

The separation over-all was lower because the feedback I got from the Oblivion thread was the separation was too high for people to see properly.

You're being a bit rough in your email. You're welcome to ask questions and express opinions, but there's no cause to question my honesty. I'll post more screen-shots when I have the chance.

Regards,
Neil

Post by **Neil** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:59 pm

Ok - here are more screenshots.

Look at the separation of the distant objects, and the tightness of the objects that are close.

http://mtbs3d.com/users/neil/newBF20000.jps
http://mtbs3d.com/users/neil/newBF20001.jps
http://mtbs3d.com/users/neil/newBF20002.jps
http://mtbs3d.com/users/neil/newBF20003.jps
http://mtbs3d.com/users/neil/newBF20004.jps
http://mtbs3d.com/users/neil/newBF20005.jps
http://mtbs3d.com/users/neil/newBF20006.jps
http://mtbs3d.com/users/neil/newBF20007.jps

Regards,
Neil

Post by **Freke1** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:38 pm

do You get odd shadows when separation is increased? I do.

Post by **Jahun** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:32 pm

Hmm well I don't want to be rough.. sorry about that. But let me quote you: "You can get deepness no problem, but the pop-out is not possible yet"

It is not just pop out that is not working, it is any depth at all. You post new images, but they are again flat. Am I even looking at the same images because this is a tad ridiculous.

Again, I loaded this time first one in the row into photoshop, and it is a 100% pixel match, (except HUD ofcourse). No "Look at the separation of the distant objects, and the tightness of the objects that are close. "

Please look at it.. again. Freke1, you seem to know your stuff, plz do a photoshop match for me. Those images have no 3D.

I would like them to have it very much, they probably are able to get it coded in soon enough. Just saying that Battlefield atm, has 0 3D depth. (unless having a 2 plane depth HUD vs actual scene is good enough for someone).

All the cheers to IZ3D for trying to get this working, and if so I am very interested. Am not trying to troll here, just have a hard time to let this pass along..

sry

Post by **Freke1** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:12 pm

Seems like 3D without convergence (popout) don't look 3D. With separation the same for close objects and far away objects as in this case (997-998 pixel in newBF20000.jps) there is no 3D which makes sence come to think about it. But it is a good thing that the postprocessing effect works in 3D. So the "only" thing missing is convergence with iZ3D in BF2.

The Nvidia driver has both separation and convergence so real 3D but maybe a problem with postprocessing effects and certainly a problem with shadows no being rendered at correct depth in BF2.

Post by **Jahun** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:57 pm

Well, yes and no.

Those images have no seperation either. There are no 2 camera angles so to say. The image is shifted, but not in a seperation kind of way. Ofcourse then postprocessing can work. Just render your 2d standard game, and shift it by say 50 pixel, and not shift HUD.

So what I think that happens, is that postprocessing is applied normally. But that quite normally "flattens" your image, since it erases all z-depth info. (because in a normal game, you couldn't give less about that info at that point of rendering).

So my guess is, that as soon as you turn on postprocessing in BF you can't have convergence/pop out anymore. Since it just became flat. Yes it works in showing you that flatness, but that is not the point of a stereo3D driver

The thing I just want to say, is that there is no "tightening" etc. If you truly see that Neil, you truly have the force

Post by **Neil** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:59 pm

Hi Guys!

I will be the first to say that the BF2 profile can be better. I said that from the beginning, and they are working on it.

However, the Post Processing and the S-3D quality are two different things. The reason why you don't get pop-out is the interface splits too much, so this was the best result I could come up with for now.

Remember, Oblivion has post processing all the time (HDR, Bloom). Same holds true for Dark Messiah Might & Magic, Star Trek Legacy, and some other games I have shown. BF2 is just a special animal.

Can you think of an image example that would help me better illustrate the depth in an image?

Neil

Post by **Likay** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:10 pm

It looks to me like Jahun is right: There's no 3d in the game here. Only the HUD at one plane and the game (2D like a flat moviescreen) on another plane. That kinda makes it look 3d but not more than that. What does it look like when turning postprocessing routines off? *curious.

Sometime i can have this phenomena with the Nvidia driver and certain games too. The scene itself is 2d but the convergence can be adjusted so it looks like the game is behind or in front of the screen.

Post by **Neil** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:45 pm

I think it's about perspective and proportion. The BF2 profile just isn't right.

There is definitely a depth quality to it because as you move closer and further away from objects, their separation adjusts relative to what is in the distance.

However, the difference of the separation between the closer objects and the furthest objects are less than what we would like - and that's why it seems flat.

Again, this has nothing to do with post processing effects - nothing at all. I think there are shots without post processing above. I played the game with my naked eye too, and the separation with and without post processing is identical.

Regards,
Neil

Post by **Likay** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:22 pm

That might be. When things are rendered at a great distance the images to each eyes are more or less identical. This is the fact in real life too.

Post by **Freke1** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:55 am

Neil wrote:Can you think of an image example that would help me better illustrate the depth in an image?

Yes, place Yourself in alignment with a wall. One eye sees the wall, one eye don't:
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1080/bf24250pq6.jpg
Unfortunately in BF2 this "realistic" 3D setting makes aiming impossible. So I set it like this:
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/3493/bf21950nt1.jpg
Still a lot better than 2D

.

Post by **Neil** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:25 am

Ok. I hate to say I told you so - nah, I LOVE to say I told you so.

I TOLD YOU SO!

Post by **Freke1** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:36 pm

Good news Neil

. It even seems like the shadows are rendered at correct screendepth unlike with Nvidias 3D driver.
(Could You post a few pics with eyedistance separation and convergence adjustment so that left/right crosshair aim at same spot? - just curious)

Post by **Neil** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:53 pm

I don't understand.

I don't think the crosshair splits with this game.

The profile isn't finished yet, though.

Neil

Post by **Freke1** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:48 am

ok, I'm just curious to see how it looks with a lot of separation.

With Nvidia's drivers I adjust like this:
(4%/0,5cm) separation and then adjust convergence untill crosshair is united. This gives a nice popout effect and I can still hit targets.

But I would like to adjust like this:
(90%/7cm) separation and then adjust convergence until I have 2 diff. views of object close by (realistic). However this makes aiming impossible.
Readjusting convergence so that I aim at the same spot in the gameworld results in no convergence effect (objects close looks like with the same perspective to both eyes).

So basicly:
realistic separation gives out of place shadows.
realistic convergence makes aiming impossible.
postprosessing shake effect (artillery, explosions) looks wrong.

Here's a few pics with explanations:
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/2362 ... 550gb2.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5381 ... 750on1.jpg
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9347 ... 850qc7.jpg

Ideally I would want:
realistic separation (~eyedistance)
realistic convergence (different eyeperspectives on close objects)
aiming at the same spot in gameworld with sights/scopes
postprosessing effects does not ruin 3D.

I was just curious what the iZ3D driver looked like with these settings.

Post by **peter64** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:48 am

Hey Freke great post! illustrating the issues with Non-Laser sight FPS aiming. Just one think I was interested in knowing. Could the drivers be modified to always allow for accurate aiming with say your right eye (or left eye optional) and then do seperation and convergence on the other eye? I mean I recall reading in the IZ3D forum that when you aim a gun in reality you only use one eye. And thats exactly it. So why not just have one eye always looking down the sight and the other eye manipulated for 3d effect. instead of modifying both eyes and shifting one left and one right. I really think this would give the best of both worlds.

Post by **sharky** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:57 pm

peter64 wrote:Hey Freke great post! illustrating the issues with Non-Laser sight FPS aiming. Just one think I was interested in knowing. Could the drivers be modified to always allow for accurate aiming with say your right eye (or left eye optional) and then do seperation and convergence on the other eye? I mean I recall reading in the IZ3D forum that when you aim a gun in reality you only use one eye. And thats exactly it. So why not just have one eye always looking down the sight and the other eye manipulated for 3d effect. instead of modifying both eyes and shifting one left and one right. I really think this would give the best of both worlds.

i absolutely agree... its a very good idea!

Post by **BlackQ** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:41 pm

Hi, guys!

iZ3D Team is working now to make crosshair possible, but it is not simple in 3d. We need to overcome contradiction between one eye aiming and two eye stereoscopic vision. With two eyes open it is impossible to make correct crosshair. We may have some help from game developers if they will implement adaptive laser "red dot" or something like that when laser dot will be on the depth of active target - but this is maximum we can imagine at the moment.

Another alternative we are considering is special tool which will give gamer an ability to correct some (not all) elements of game to make them more comfortable for him personally.

I'd like to have any idea or input here.

Regards,

Post by **Jahun** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:59 pm

NIce post Freke1, good explanations too.

But I think BlackQ is right.. it is just not possible. There is no way you can get all the things you want.. Either you use a red dot laser sight thing (Nvidia's), which is a tad harder to implement. (but extremely easy for game developers themselves!) or another solution which would work when using iron sights like this:

Make it possible to bind a key in the driver to a "single eye" mode. Usually then the same key as the game would need when you are looking over the ironsight. It would basically just drop the seperation to 0 over say 1 second of time.

You'd still be looking with your 2 eyes but the effect would be like in reality, single eye so no 3D. This would be perfect for me.

Post by **Freke1** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:11 am

thx

Yes someone wrote somewhere they turn 3D off when using the ironsight (same key) maybe that is the best way (in real life You close an eye so no 3D either)

Post by **Jahun** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:49 pm

Well, there are quite a few issues with actually turning the S-3D off alltogether all the time. It would be cleaner to have seperation go to 0 quickly.

Ofcourse, atm there is no choice.

Post by **sharky** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:23 pm

i like the adaptive thing.. that means that if a taget is far away the crosshair or laserpoint goes far away too right?

i immagine that something like that will be reaaaaaaaly difficult to do..

Battlefield 2

Battlefield 2

Crosshair problem