What is the Best VR now, Valve index, Vive Cosmos?

[Chtiblue]

What is the Best VR hardware at the present moment, Valve index, Vive Cosmos, Occulus Quest, or else?

[whyme466]

Wireless Vive Pro with GearVR lens mod, combined with Index Controllers (Helifax also has lens-modified Vive Pro with Index Controllers, after he abandoned his Surround setup). I also own Valve Index and Pimax 8K HMDs - I prefer Vive Pro OLED’s more vibrant colors and darker blacks.

Note that Cosmos has been getting bad reviews because of its poor tracking...

[Chtiblue]

Thanks Whyme66, very interesting!

I'll check that tomorrow

Which tutorial did you follow to install and buy them?

No problems or downsides after the mod with dust or whatever?

[john105]

Helifax also has lens-modified Vive Pro with Index Controllers, after he abandoned his Surround setup

Sorry for off topic, but I'm just curious. Why did Helifax abandon his Surround setup? I thought that he is one of the most hardcore surround users.

[whyme466]

Chtiblue - I followed video from site where I obtained the lens mod kit (https://www.etsy.com/listing/668606772/ ... ve_6&frs=1). You must be careful to not introduce dust during replacement process, but the lens are trouble-free after installation. The new lens stick out a little more than the original lens, but I have no clearance problems when using my eyeglasses with the Vive Pro.

john105 - Helifax indicated that his Surround setup was becoming “too fiddly”.

By the way, I highly recommend Asgard’s Wrath - a very polished AAA game built from the ground up for VR, with a main mission lasting over 30 hours (and MANY side missions). 130 GB installation - but the game’s texture details really help with the immersion.

[skyrimer]

Imho from best to worse:

Pimax 8KX: Simply the best headset on earth, need the best computer on earth, laugh out loud price.

Pimax 8k+ : Best fov, best sde, best resolution, ridiculous price, still requires a great computer.

Index: Perfectly rounded HMD. Better FOV/SDE/audio/comfort/tracking/controllers than average, PC requirements are not too high and price is expensive but worth it. And Half Life Alyx specifically designed to take advantage of it, that's a huge plus.

Vive Pro: Great HMD with OLED screens AKA perfect blacks, you can add a wireless module for extra mobility, very solid option., however HTC support is legendary terrible.

Oculus Rift S: A few months back it was the clear winner in terms of price/performance ratio at $400..Now i'm not so sure, Facebook is clearly abandoning it in favour of Oculus Quest, still extremely solid HMD but you miss finger tracking of Index controllers in SteamVR devices. Tracking is a bit worse than SteamVR devices, but you get inside out tracking so no external trackers (lighthouse) needed. SDE/audio/comfort are a bit worse than Index, but price is unbeatable.

Oculus Quest: Very versatile HMD. It can work on it's own as a mobile device with it's own android hardware, so you can use it without PC, however with Oculus Link you can now use it with a PC too just like Oculus Rift S. It has a bit worse tracking, comfort, low internal storage and below average battery life, however being able to work both on the go and on desktop is amazing.

Samsung Odyssey+: Great HMD based on Windows MR, works with SteamVR so it's compatible with almost anything out there, pretty cheap too, but tracking is sub par.

HP Revert: Another WIndows MR device, best image quality out there, but small FOV and some other issues and I'm not sure HP has fixed them yet.

Vive Cosmos: Terrible HMD, worse tracking out there, needs a lot of light in the room to even start tracking, and even when it works it's subpar. Add the terrible HTC support and controllers that requires batteries and last two hours, I wouldn't buy this over anything else really.

[Chtiblue]

Thanks!

Which 3Dvision games did you enjoy with HMD VR?

[Chtiblue]

I'm scared that the grid is too much visible and distracted me too much

[zaibaker]

Oculus Quest: Very versatile HMD. It can work on it's own as a mobile device with it's own android hardware, so you can use it without PC, however with Oculus Link you can now use it with a PC too just like Oculus Rift S. It has a bit worse tracking, comfort, low internal storage and below average battery life, however being able to work both on the go and on desktop is amazing.

Hello, take care about this point: Desktop.
This Link imply blur of the image due to the fact that this is the streaming of the PC.

It seems that everyone have this cons, notably when you look far.
So Oculus Quest is not equal to Rift S. Rift S has better image than Quest when linked.

The Quest is better than the Rift CV1 , not the last one.

I hope people don't dream too much about this functionnality due the lack of bandwith.
It's still in beta, let's see if they improve the quality, and maybe the official cable with fiber optic will be better.

[whyme466]

I really dislike the Pimax 8K’s optical distortion at the outer edges, even with a “Normal” (middle) setting. I have not read that Pimax has improved their optical design with their newer headsets, only added more display resolution - which even an overclocked 2080Ti cannot support (these higher res HMDs really need the next gen 2080Ti). For example, see https://forum.pimaxvr.com/t/popular-con ... ease/20693. Pimax abandons older models with its newer HMDs - for example, the Pimax 8K features dual 4K displays but downsampled PC signal, with no mod available to bypass the downsampling.

Valve Index has a wider FOV (than Vive Pro) with NO distortion like Pimax’s, but I prefer OLED HMD displays. Index and Vive Pro have comparable display resolutions, and they both need a 2080Ti to play a game like Asgard’s Wrath at full resolution (and 150% SS).

With all the spinning and movement during Asgard’s Wrath combat, I found wireless connection is essential to avoid stopping the game periodically to untangle the HMD cable (my fastest combat performance occurs while seated on armless swivel chair).

[Chtiblue]

I found a vive pro second hand with 2 wands controllers and 2 laser lighthouse "1" bases for 580€.

Is it worth it?
Are the wans controller good enough?
Are the laser lighthouse 1 good enough too?

[DJ-RK]

That seems a decent deal for buying into possibly the best overall hardware ecosystem. With the Vive Pro you have the option of going wireless AND upgrading to the knuckles controllers. Of course those are pricey additions, but at least you could get the main setup now and enjoy it and upgrade down the line (and by toughing it out with the original stuff you'll come to appreciate those upgrades later on).

I can't comment on the "2 laser lighthouse "1" base" part. I'm pretty sure the stock setup is supposed to have 2 base stations included, and I wouldn't want to go below that as having good tracking is one of the key reasons for going for a Vive.

[whyme466]

I am still using my original Vive base stations - they continue to work great for my room size (I do not need version 2 features). The Index Controllers are MUCH better for games like Asgard’s Wrath and Stormland than the more cumbersome Vive (trackpad-based) controllers...

[Chtiblue]

Thanks Dj-RK & Whyme4 in pm66,
Yeah I wanted to say original version of the 2 bases, he should have got with the first vive.
I negociated it for 500€ and will get it tomorrow.
I will get later index controller.

It has still one year warranty for the headset and was use only for demo purpose for enterprises with protection, so it should be on good shape.

I read the ears sound part is not very good nor practical?

What do you think of those lens+adaptators?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HTC-Vive-Gea ... 05f4e1c0cf

[DJ-RK]

Doesn't the Vive Pro come with the better Deluxe Audio Strap? If not, that's another upgrade you can get.

[whyme466]

I find the Vive Pro’s sound to be acceptable without modification. I cannot comment about the lens mod kit you are considering - I tried to find a kit with the latest lens holder version number (and kit price varies quite a bit).

[Necropants]

Helifax also has lens-modified Vive Pro with Index Controllers, after he abandoned his Surround setup

Sorry for off topic, but I'm just curious. Why did Helifax abandon his Surround setup? I thought that he is one of the most hardcore surround users.

As of the latest gen of Nvidia graphics cards. and Windows 10 updates I can no longer get 3dsurround to work at all. Games either crash from the outset or outright BSOD the system.
Will fiddle around with Old drivers on windows 7 but I have a feeling they broke it with some update. (either windows or Nvidia.)

[lohan]

The best current VR headset is the Valve Index...period!

I have owned nearly every single major VR headset that came out until this day and there is good reason to crown the Valve Index as the current best VR-headset (I guess that will change with the Pimax 8KX which is just around the corner. I am eagerly awaiting my preorder which should arrive early next year)...

After owning the original Vive, the original Rift, the Samsung Odyssey, the Samsung Odyssey Plus, the Vive Pro, the Pimax 5K Plus, the Pimax OLED and the Pimax 8K I settled for the Pimax 5K Plus for obvious reasons. It had the best FOV by far and the best resolution (Pimax 8K has the same native resolution).

Just as important for me was the displays being LCD! Now you may say "wait wouldn't that be a clear disadvantage compared to those beautiful OLED displays like the one of the Vive Pro"?
No definitely no in my book. Yes, OLED displays offer way better colors and way better black levels. But and this is a big BUT they also usually feature a Pentile Matrix screen which means a pixel has only 2 sub-pixels where an LCD-display with an RGB stripe matrix features 3 subpixels per pixel. So while you have better colors and black levels with those OLED VR headsets like the Vive Pro you also get significant sharper image quality and way less screen door effect with the current VR LCD displays.

VR is all about immersion and in my book nothing is more immersion-breaking than a clearly visible screen-door effect and image quality that lacks sharpness. While even better black levels and better colors are also nice to have it is the screen door effect and lacking sharpness that instantly tells me that "I am not really there". Since the screen door effect constanly tells your brain that you are basically just looking at a screen it totally breaks immersion for me. So with the Pimax 5K Plus (LCD RGB-stripe matrix) I was totally satisfied. When the Valve Index was announced and hyped I couldn't resist and did a preorder just to test it (although I was pretty sure I would still opt for the Pimax in the end as it featured better resolution and better FOV).
Sebastian from MRTV (one of the best informed VR only channels on YouTube) also was absolutely blown away by the Pimax ad even said you couldn't go back after you had witnessed a wide FOV headset like the Pimax.

Then the Index was released!
It had less FOV and less resolution compared to the Pimax so how could it even have a chance.....
It only took one test/comparison run (although I did some more thereafter) to shatter my expectation and I was convinced to keep the Index and sell the Pimax.

Somehow the Index hits a sweet-spot with the FOV of roughly 130 degrees. This is way less than the Pimax but at the same time significantly more than every other headset on the mass market like Rift, Vive, Vive Pro, every WMR headset etc.
Those 130 degrees are somehow big enough to not feel constrained. You don't feel like you are looking through a tube.
When it comes to picture quality and especially the screen-door effect I feel like the Index is significantly better than even the Pimax. There is almost no screen-door effect at all so you really feel like "being there" without constantly being reminded that you are just looking at a screen. At the same time colors and black levels are really good (of course not as good as an OLED display).
MRTV's Sebastian came to the same conclusion and changed his undisputed preference for the Pimax 5K Plus in favor of the Valve Index!


Now let me give you some thoughts on the game which in my opinion is the nail in the coffin for all those "VR isn't able to stand on its own legs" comments...ASGARD'SWRATH!

Up to this point VR already achieved a lot. With todays headsets there were games that absolutely looked stunning! There were games that definitely could be played for numerous hours. There were games that excelled in the possibilities of VR interaction! The only problem...there were no games that had it all! The most polished looking games often only offered a few of hours of gameplay. Longer games often suffered from not exactly triple A graphics. And games with triple A story-telling (like Skyrim VR) were "just" ports from older non-VR blockbuster games! So they definitely lacked some possibilities in terms of VR interaction.

That all changed with Asgard's Wrath
In my book Asgard's Wrath is the first real triple-A VR only title that delivers on absolutely all and I mean ALL fronts and just keeps on giving. There are glorious blockbuster VR only games like Lone Echo but all of them have at least one aspect were you could say it could be even better (like Lone Echo could have been a little bit longer)!

Asgard's Wrath is a piece of sheer beauty (graphics-wise) and has 60+ hours of gameplay if you really want to do absolutely everything there is on offer. The game has absolutely no fillers! I enjoy every minute in this game as everything in this game is highly motivating and there is so much diversity and variety in gameplay that it simply has no elements that get boring. Since it is a VR only game you get to do everything yourself. This really is a game where you feel like being there and doing stuff in the virtual world that is on display.

Opening a sarcophagus in a deep dark dungeon with your own hands just to get physically assailed by a dark spirit that is lashing out at you gives you a feeling of presence that no 3D vision Surround Setup and no 65" 4K OLED EDID modded 3D-TV can give you (I own/owned those too so I know what I am speaking of). Now grabbing the meticulously crafted sword that is laying on the chest of the deceased one in that very sarcohagus with your own hands just puts an eternal smile on your face. Even the soundtrack in this game is just pure beauty and nails the atmosphere!


Before I come to an end with this lengthy post I just want to express my joy that our 3D Vision community has find a fitting place to continue here on mtbs3D. Somehow it feels like the circle closes! Back in 2009 I started my 3D Vision journey (and still I am enjoying it on a daily basis). Even before I jumped to the Nvidia 3D Vision forum in 2009 I was an active member of the mtbs3D-forum when a certain - and by then completely unknown - Palmer Luckey (founder of Oculus) told us he worked on a virtual reality device "in his garage"! That all happened here on mtbs3D almost 10 years ago and now we are back!

Great things await us!

[Chtiblue]

Thanks Lohan,
But did you use the vive pro with the gear lens mod?

[Dom]

I would pick up an Oculus Quest too! You guys forgot that it's going to have hand tracking as well as touch controllers. I have a leap motion controller hooked up to my Rift and it's pretty immersive using it with your fingers and picking up things and painting. (There are some demos and such software for leap motion).

I am still happy with my HTC Vive and Oculus Rift. I might get a Quest sometime when I get a fulltime job (just volunteering right now, break) so.. The Vive is nice Fov and Tracking, Valve has good support online and updates their software lots and there's Viveport service too (which I have).

What I thought was immersive was Driving games with a racing wheel. I might try Dirt 2.0 on my HTC Vive sometime with my Logitech Racing Wheel.
Yes and thanks to MTBS3D.com all the folks here and Palmer, Cybereality, Neil, John Carmack and everyone else who put money down on the table and did the work to develop.

[lohan]

Thanks Lohan,
But did you use the vive pro with the gear lens mod?

No I didn't try it because the feedback I noticed was a mixed bag of positive and negative comments. In the end it is "just" a lens mod which doesn't completely turn those negatives I mentioned into positives. But it seems to have quite positive results for some users.

[Chtiblue]

As my main concern for not going to VR untill now was the screen door effect and resolution, perhaps I should go directly with the Valve Index VR kit, shouldn't I Whyme466?

Plus I would soon have to buy the Index controllers as they seems a big upgrade compare to vive controller.

[Chtiblue]

Lohan,

Vive pro vs Index, you would say index is a huge SDE improvment?

What about the nasty glare does seem to have the Index?

[whyme466]

Repeating, I find the overall visuals better with Vive Pro than Index (Vive Pro has slightly smaller FOV with slightly higher resolution in its FOV - they both have 1400 x 1600 pixels per eye), including SDE. The lens replacement DOES make a difference - as does a wireless connection for an immersive game like Asgard’s Wrath. Valve Index is a great HMD also, capable of 120 fps (120 fps WILL require lowering game resolution settings in Asgard’s Wrath, even with overclocked 2080Ti), better than any Pimax model. I would not recommend any Pimax HMD until they eliminate lens distortion in their HMDs (lens redesign delayed the launch of the original 8K version, and it appears they still do not have an appropriate design - HMD lens are important, as well as HMD display screens).

[john105]

you also get significant sharper image quality and way less screen door effect with the current VR LCD displays.

Thanks for pointing this out. I really hate the screen door effect and would prefer to buy something that has as little of it as possible, even if it means compromising on other things.

[lohan]

No I wouldn't call it a huge difference but I definitely prefer the Index's SDE to that of the Vive Pro! And since the Index features an LCD RGB stripe Matrix with 3 sub-pixels per pixel the superior sharpness and superior SDE doesn't come as a surprise.

But you have to be aware that colors and black-levels are superior on the Vive Pro (OLED). But I am quite satisfied with colors and black-levels even on the Index so all in all it is definitely the Index for me! Now add the higher FOV of the Index, the unmatched wearing comfort of the Index and the superior best-in class audio solution of the Index and you should certainly end up with the Index!
Personally I don't have any issues with the glare issues that is often reported for the Valve Index. I guess I am just not very sensitive to it. But I won't say that it isn't there....

BUT....

Pimax will release the 8K Plus as well as the 8KX in the coming weeks (first Youtubers are expecting the device by end of November) so I would definitely wait a little longer with my purchase. First feedback is simply mindblowing not only for the 8KX (native 4K per eye) but also for the 8K Plus. The 8K Plus will still have native 1440p per eye but this time the device will feature full RGB stripe matrix where the current 8K has pentile matrix. That was the reason why most users chose the 5K Plus over the 8K (me included). The image quality with the RGB stripe 5K Plus was just sharper and clearer than the upscaled image of the pentile matrix 8K.

The huge FOV of the Pimax is definitely a game changer and as I said I never would initially have expected that I (and not just me) would opt for the Index in comparison with the Pimax 5K Plus.
So it seems the 8KX will be the ultimate headset. It will offer mindblowing image quality combined with an unrivaled FOV of 200 degrees diagonally. Take the improved sweetspot and minimized edge distortion into the equation and the 8KX looks like the VR headset of your dreams (that's why I have it on preorder).

BUT...

Pimax as a company is a nightmare you have to deal with as a customer. Pimaxes performance as a company is almost lacking in every single possible way (lack of communication, broken promises, lack of compatibility, questionnable decisions every step of the way etc.) But WHEN everything is working a Pimax is a great thing and with the 8KX they will push VR to the next level. You just should always keep a fallback solution on your shelf just in case compatibility issues arise...again!

That is the reason why I have the highest hopes for the coming Pimax 8KX but at the same time why I will definitely keep my Index...just in case!

P.S: The Index controllers with their specific finger tracking and grip-sensor technology are also best in class by now. You can use it with all Pimax headsets and of course with the Valve Index. As soon as Half Life Alyx drops in March 2020 which will be tailor-made for the Index controllers no one will honestly want to pass on all the additional bells and whistles these controllers offer for immersion.
Yes, Oculus Quest is fiddling with no-controller finger-tracking but this one is in such an early state that there definitely is nothing substantial to be expected in the near future....

[Chtiblue]

Thanks Whyme466 and Lohan, I got the Vive pro today for 500€, so if I'm not satisfied with it , I'll sell it for the same price without problem I think.

Let's check it now

[lohan]

Great Chtiblue!
You absolutely need to get Asgard's Wrath NOW! Also wouldn't hurt to get Stormland as well (equally great!)! Download the latest Revive version (so you will be able to play Oculus Exclusives) and prepare yourself to get immersed like never before!

Revive:

https://github.com/LibreVR/Revive/releases

For Stormland you need to get 2 additional fix files for Revive! The creator of Revive is on vacation currently and has no access to his workstation so he couldn't upload a fully compatible Revive version yet. So him and a friend just did a quick fix which you can find here:


https://uploadvr.com/how-to-play-storml ... -htc-vive/

Unfortunately this adds Revive compatibility for Stormland but a lot of ground textures look weird/halo-like. But even that has been fixed. Now the game looks perfect. Just have a look here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SteamVR/commen ... ering_fix/

[RAGEdemon]

Great info!

Thank you Lohan and Skyrimer!

Lohan, I personally look forward to your Pimax 8KX impressions with great anticipation!

[lohan]

Great info!
Lohan, I personally look forward to your Pimax 8KX impressions with great anticipation!

When I receive the 8K-X this forum here will be my first stop!

[whyme466]

Some Black Friday VR deals - see https://www.gamespot.com/articles/best- ... 0-6471707/.

[Chtiblue]

So I'm in VR, just begining Asgard 8)

I have to say VR is quite impressive and it's another big step in 3D!

What a trip to esquive bullets, hide behind things, aim for shooting, interact with objects etc...!

But I can't wait the next generation to get rid of that f----g SDE, it's like playing on a ps3... hope it will be with the pimax 8KX or a vive 8k with Oled inside...

Despite that SDE, HTC vive pro has indeed great colors and blacks, I can't wait to try with the lens mod when I will receive it…

Indeed the trackpad of the wands controller are really really big poop for movements and make me feel nausea faster as I don't move as I wish…
I'll have to order Index controllers soon...

I would really like to test the Index headset too to compare.

[Dom]

Hey nice, it's too bad you have such a hard time with SDE. With the motion tracking and game graphics, I don't even notice it that much on my headsets. You can turn up the supersample in the settings in steam Vr but then it's like its rendering 4K resolution so you have to watch how high you set it.

You should get this program for SteamVr: https://github.com/OpenVR-Advanced-Sett ... s/releases
It lets you control the Guardian in SteamVr and various advanced settings with your headset on.

I just picked up Asseto Corsa on Steam, it was like 80% off. I'm gonna hook up my driving wheel to my HTC Vive soon I think. I might pick up Asgard's Wrath for Christmas or New Years.

[Chtiblue]

DO you have and play with the vive headset only?

[Dom]

DO you have and play with the vive headset only?

Steam Vr Advanced settings is for any headset I think like Index or Oculus. This program is just for SteamVr and you open it with your menu button on your controller. It looks like that floating menu dashboard on one of the bottom round menu buttons. Should say advanced settings.

I have an Oculus Rift and gave one other headset to my nephew.

[whyme466]

I compared my Index versus Vive Pro again - if I concentrate, I can see comparable SDE artifacts in BOTH HMDs (they both have same screen pixel count per eye, but slightly different in-game FOVs and apparent resolution). Increasing screen resolution (like Pimax 8KX) is the best way to reduce SDE artifacts, but ONLY if no geometric distortion is introduced across the entire FOV of the HMD (Pimax needs lens redesign - I hope that is why they are delaying launch of 8KX)...

[Chtiblue]

Thanks Whyme466, much appreciated 8)

[zig11727]

I own 5 headsets and I found the best to 3D PC games and seated VR is HP Reverb second all round winner is Valve Index and in third place is my Rift S for there exclusive games EX Stormland, Asgard's Wrath.

I owned Vive Cosmos and it wasn't bad but Customer Service is the worst.

[Chtiblue]

Hi Zig,

Great! What are your other headsets?

Do you know that with revive you can play Oculus games with your HP Reverb and Valve Index?

Cheers

[zig11727]

@Chtiblue

Here is a list of headsets I currently own

1 Hp Reverb Version 2 (this is excellent headset for seated games for Helix Vision, VR Sims and VorpX) the only problem is you need a state art computer to run the games. It's true 4K headset.

2 Valve Index with Knuckles controllers excellent headset has 120HZ and 144HZ refresh rate and tracking is excellent.

3 Rift S this is a very good entry level system and Oculus has some of the best VR games for the system.

4 Samsung Odyssey + This is WMR like HP reverb it plays all the Steam Vr Games and I my god children use it when they visted me.

5 Samsung Odyssey Same as above

I purchased a Vive Cosmos thru Amazon USA and it was fairly good headset after Vive roll out some patches the problem was Customer Service is poor so I returned it to Amazon.

One thing I must say I love 3D Vision but lately in has became a chore to get any thing to work between no support in certain versions of Windows with newer drivers and DX12, Vuklan don't help the matter either.