Need TDVisor Help

[Neil]

Hi Guys!

I know I may sound a bit out of place asking this question, but I need help with my TDVisor. I'm testing one of their later prototypes (the 800X600). Their units are getting significantly better with each revision, no question.

I'm using them in conjunction with iZ3D's 1.09B2 driver, and I am having a painful time determining the best separation and convergence settings. You can only see one eye at a time with an HMD. Does anyone out there have experience with HMD stereo setting practices? It's just too easy to suffer from divergence and poor convergence settings because there is no reference point when the HMD is worn.

Regards,
Neil

[RAGEdemon]

Hi Neil,

You will find that you can comfortably set the convergence and separation values much higher than you could with a monitor.

What I found was that a good way to do it would be to to just set each to the point where they start to get uncomfortable, then back off a little and walk about in the game.

after a few minutes, either of 2 things will happen:

1) You will feel uncomfortable and/or dizzy, with that "special" strain on the eyes (you know the one:P), and you won't be amle to concentrate on the game - Obviously meaning that the values are too high to handle.

2) You will me completely immersed as you walk around, and forget that you are actually testing - this si of course the sweet spot.

Sorry I can't be of more help, but as the old saying goes: "how long is a piece of string" :p

-- Shahzad.

[jumbo_spaceman]

Hi Neil,

I'm very interested in TDvision HMDs once you get it working to your liking please post your thoughts on the quality of the experience, although I'm guessing you were planning to do so anyway. I'm most curious if the description of the view being like looking at a large screen a number of feet away is accurate. Thanks

[chrisjarram]

Hi Neil,

I'm very interested in TDvision HMDs once you get it working to your liking please post your thoughts on the quality of the experience, although I'm guessing you were planning to do so anyway. I'm most curious if the description of the view being like looking at a large screen a number of feet away is accurate. Thanks

In terms of immersion and the 'big screen experience', From my own perspective I had the opportunity to try one of these and it still doesnt touch the immersion of sitting in front of a decent projector with a pair of shutters. The screen is likened to a 72" from 10ft (which means you are basically still looking down a tunnel), but you have to remember thats like looking at an average sized plasma TV in a small lounge, and only at 800x600. It is still fairly expensive and even the 'HD' version due to be released isn't a massive improvement. I had considered investing in one of these (and the TDVisor is the only one I'd even bother with), but in my own opinion HMDs still are simply not good enough dollar for dollar until something the equivalant of the Sensics becomes comsumer-affordable, especially as the TDVisor doesnt even offer head tracking out of the box. It is nice to see some progress, but still a long way off to justify wearing that silly thing on your head However, I do of course understand you eliminate flicker and ghosting entirely, which is where the big advantage is, but personally for me this is not an issue with a good active projector rig (which can also be shared by multiple viewers).

Another thing is their specs are all over the place. There are parts of their site that state 108", others that state 72", some that say the HD version is 1280x720 (most likely) and others that say its 1280x768 (the order page). Confusing

[jumbo_spaceman]

chrisjarram,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question in detail. Based on this, I think I'll stick with my shutters and hope support comes soon. Anaglyph on a large HDTV with iz3d drivers has been surprisingly cool and should hold me over until iz3d gets its driver working. I suppose I will not be buying anything new until I see what Nvidia has up its sleeve later this year.

Neil,

Sorry for changing the subject.

[Neil]

Hi Guys,

I don't like to do hardware reviews because it puts MTBS in a conflict of interest. However, I would like to point out some things:

1. The HMD I have is still a prototype with improvements still being made.
2. This prototype is far better than the previous version in clarity and brightness.
3. There is still work being done for size and comfort. I don't have a final product to discuss. I would say the same of the units that have been received by our fellow members.
4. For me, an important factor is the driver support. If iZ3D or NVIDIA or other driver provider can come up with a way to comfortably adjust S-3D settings while wearing the HMD, that would be a major plus for the technology. The visual guesswork is the biggest challenge because there is no way to see both images at the same time overlapped, and this makes it harder to find the most comfortable settings.

I'm not sure about the big screen in front of your eyes, though I'm pleasantly surprised by the clarity I get out of an 800X600 image. A big screen doesn't seem like the right analogy to me, though I would say it's a unique media of itself and does offer immersion benefits. I am growing more and more confident with this product as further revisions cross my desk.

Regards,
Neil

[RAGEdemon]

Hi chrisjarram,

I too feel that projectors are one of the best solutions for Stereo3D, especially for FPS games.

Although I agree with you on most points, a projector setup does have a few minor disadvantages. Firstly, ~75% of the light is cut out. Projectors output low amounts of light as it is, and this really doesn't help. currently, I'm running a 2500 lumen projector with a 2.5:1 gain glass bead screen and i find that barely satisfactory with shutter glasses. The "graying" due to the shutters also means the picture loses some of it's vibrance even with a high vibrancy setting. If the light output isn't quite good enough, some users tend to amp the gamma, which again washes out a lot of colors.

Secondly, the image is flickery due to a relatively low refresh rate. At 85Hz, there is noticeable flicker.

Third, because the same screen is used to display a picture intended for both eyes, the edges of the screen crop the image intended for each eye, so one eye is getting a little different "crop" of the image than the other eye, which is a big no-no, especially at high convergence settings.

An HMD on the other hand, provides a bright, vibrant picture and the same scene for both the eyes. There is also no flicker.

This all adds to the major advantage of an HMD: the convergence and separation settings can be turned up far higher than on a projector. The only 2 real disadvantages it has, in comparison, are the comparatively low resolution and FOV. But I hope the HD will fix that - the 1280x720p model will be of higher resolution than my 1024x768 projector, and the 48 degrees FOV will be up nearer a projector level.

Both projectors and HMDs are very unique experiences. I personally wouldn't say one is specifically better than the other. I, therefor, have (had/will again have) both solutions.

-- Shahzad.

[chrisjarram]

Hi Ragedemon,

Totally agree with you on most points, though what you say about the projector light output is not an issue - if you project a 50" image at 2500 lumens (as I am) its actually _too_ bright for comfort, without any tweaks to the gamma setting whatsoever - the solution to the brightness issue is obviously have a shorter throw distance and sit closer to the screen In terms of the image crop, obviously it is no different between a projector and an HMD, unless you physically move one eye of the HMD output. An HMD also offsets left and right eye images so you get exactly the same crop with both. The flicker at 85hz I find barely noticable, apart from looking at pure white. Personally I dont play FPS games, purely racing sims where I find the immersion you can get from an 80" display at 6' completely unbeatable

Though I agree the newer generations of HMD are getting there, you simply cannot beat a decent active projector rig at this time.

Hi chrisjarram,

I too feel that projectors are one of the best solutions for Stereo3D, especially for FPS games.

Although I agree with you on most points, a projector setup does have a few minor disadvantages. Firstly, ~75% of the light is cut out. Projectors output low amounts of light as it is, and this really doesn't help. currently, I'm running a 2500 lumen projector with a 2.5:1 gain glass bead screen and i find that barely satisfactory with shutter glasses. The "graying" due to the shutters also means the picture loses some of it's vibrance even with a high vibrancy setting. If the light output isn't quite good enough, some users tend to amp the gamma, which again washes out a lot of colors.

Secondly, the image is flickery due to a relatively low refresh rate. At 85Hz, there is noticeable flicker.

Third, because the same screen is used to display a picture intended for both eyes, the edges of the screen crop the image intended for each eye, so one eye is getting a little different "crop" of the image than the other eye, which is a big no-no, especially at high convergence settings.

An HMD on the other hand, provides a bright, vibrant picture and the same scene for both the eyes. There is also no flicker.

This all adds to the major advantage of an HMD: the convergence and separation settings can be turned up far higher than on a projector. The only 2 real disadvantages it has, in comparison, are the comparatively low resolution and FOV. But I hope the HD will fix that - the 1280x720p model will be of higher resolution than my 1024x768 projector, and the 48 degrees FOV will be up nearer a projector level.

Both projectors and HMDs are very unique experiences. I personally wouldn't say one is specifically better than the other. I, therefor, have (had/will again have) both solutions.

-- Shahzad.

[RAGEdemon]

hehe I guess it all comes down to what kind of games you play.

HMDs of course shine in FPS games, but wouldn't be very good for say, top-down strategy games.

I agree with you though, I play all racing games on the projector too over the HMD.
With said setup, i find that the bumper cams in games give an amazing sense of speed when in stereo

-- Shahzad.

[chrisjarram]

I'd agree totally the HMDs shine in FPS's, but only those with headtracking, which unfortunately the TDVisor doesnt have Obviously one intermediate option is the TrackIR 4, but I own one of these and for this purpose it would be completely impractial - 3 monitors on a TH2G is about its limit, with an HMD on you'd get frustrated very quickly...

Roll on an HMD with accurate 4dof head tracking, an FOV in excess of 120deg and a weight less than 500g and I'm there!

Sorry Neil to digress in this thread, you are of course totally right in terms of HMD configuration, I understand the DLL problem with this, though running in anaglyph should not be an issue provided you can intermediately output exactly the same through both eyes - given your experience though I'm guessing this is not possible with the TDVisor?.

hehe I guess it all comes down to what kind of games you play.

HMDs of course shine in FPS games, but wouldn't be very good for say, top-down strategy games.

I agree with you though, I play all racing games on the projector too over the HMD.
With said setup, i find that the bumper cams in games give an amazing sense of speed when in stereo

-- Shahzad.

[RAGEdemon]

The problem is that good head tracking at an affordble price is very difficult to come by.

Even on the z800, i just switched it off, as it was more a distraction than help.

Even without it, i feel that the z800 with all its 'faults' was better than the projector for FPS.

I have the trackerIR. IMO it was one of the worst investments I have ever made. I know some people swear by it, but it was just not for me.

I guess it would be a matter of personal taste =]

[chrisjarram]

Yep, exactly my point.. HMD without good head tracking is a waste of time... IMO the most important aspect of S3D is to cover the buggiest FOV possible - the difference is night and day if you get your peripheral vision taken care of properly, but again I suppose thats a matter of taste; However, s3d is all about immersion after all.

The problem is that good head tracking at an affordble price is very difficult to come by.

Even on the z800, i just switched it off, as it was more a distraction than help.

Even without it, i feel that the z800 with all its 'faults' was better than the projector for FPS.

I have the trackerIR. IMO it was one of the worst investments I have ever made. I know some people swear by it, but it was just not for me.

I guess it would be a matter of personal taste =]

[Freke1]

If the view direction and the gun direction in FPS are the same, headtracking (TrackIR or VR920) is useless, even with a HMD, right?
I have a TrackIR, never uses it in FPS.

[Tril]

As far as I know, all head tracking solutions have lag. You move your head, you wait, then the view moves. Personally, that's a bit why I don't like headtracking much.

[chrisjarram]

As far as I know, all head tracking solutions have lag. You move your head, you wait, then the view moves. Personally, that's a bit why I don't like headtracking much.

I've used very quick headtracking systems in the past - the cheaper ones do have a little lag though yep.

[Neil]

BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!

Intermission is over, people. Back to the core question!

I found the solution! I found the solution!

I'm going to have to write a more official guide for HMDs, but here is a start. This will only work for the iZ3D drivers as far as I know.

1. In the iZ3D control panel and in game profiles, choose "LEFT SHIFT". I think it defaults to symmetrical, but go with LEFT SHIFT. If your other eye is dominant, choose RIGHT SHIFT. LEFT SHIFT means that when you separate, only the image in your left eye gets adjusted, while the right eye stays static. For me, this also makes the in-game cross-hair accurate because it is pointed correctly in the right eye.

2. While keeping just your left eye open, increase the separation. If you hit the stereo hotkey on and off, you will see the images in the distance shift to the left in stereo, and to the right in mono.

3. While keeping just your left eye open, increase the convergence. If you hit the stereo hotkey on and off, you will see the images up close shift to the right in stereo, and to the left in mono.

You will need to create a comfortable balance between the two, but in a nutshell, on condition that you are using left shift separation mode in the iZ3D driver, this is a good reference point.

Here is the MTBS stereo settings guide for those unfamiliar about the relationship between separation and convergence:

http://www.mtbs3d.com/cgi-bin/newslette ... ews_id=44/

Score another point for the Schneider-man! 8)

Regards,
Neil

[RAGEdemon]

As far as I know, all head tracking solutions have lag. You move your head, you wait, then the view moves. Personally, that's a bit why I don't like headtracking much.

I've used very quick headtracking systems in the past - the cheaper ones do have a little lag though yep.

The z800 lag is pretty good, usually un-noticeable. The problem with the unit is accuracy. It uses a dampening algorithm to smooth out "jitter", but in doing so, it dampens small or slow movements to null, which do not show on the screen at all.

The result is that all fast movements are displayed but the slower the movement give a progressively lower response, till there is no response at all. The speed vs response curve looks like a logarithmic plot rather than a linear scale, which annihilates immersion.

The other problem with it was that when you rotated your head along the horizontal plane, the display wouldn't just move left and right - It would either move towards the top or towards the bottom in no particular sequence.

As one of the posters said earlier, even with perfect head tracking, there is always the bigger problem that the head can't move independently of the gun aim.

I think there was a quake2 demo which was specially designed for independent head movement... AFAIK it was made as a demo for some head tracking device... I have (unsuccessfully) tried to find it on the Internet... might be a good experiment... probably gone the way of the dodo though

[da_giz]

As one of the posters said earlier, even with perfect head tracking, there is always the bigger problem that the head can't move independently of the gun aim.

I think there was a quake2 demo which was specially designed for independent head movement... AFAIK it was made as a demo for some head tracking device... I have (unsuccessfully) tried to find it on the Internet... might be a good experiment... probably gone the way of the dodo though

As far as I know Armed Assault uses seperate head-tracking and there is Armed Assault 2 coming out in a few months which should have headtracking, too.

[RAGEdemon]

Kl, I'll check it out once I have one again

[genetic]

BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!

Intermission is over, people. Back to the core question!

I found the solution! I found the solution!

I'm going to have to write a more official guide for HMDs, but here is a start. This will only work for the iZ3D drivers as far as I know.

1. In the iZ3D control panel and in game profiles, choose "LEFT SHIFT". I think it defaults to symmetrical, but go with LEFT SHIFT. If your other eye is dominant, choose RIGHT SHIFT. LEFT SHIFT means that when you separate, only the image in your left eye gets adjusted, while the right eye stays static. For me, this also makes the in-game cross-hair accurate because it is pointed correctly in the right eye.

2. While keeping just your left eye open, increase the separation. If you hit the stereo hotkey on and off, you will see the images in the distance shift to the left in stereo, and to the right in mono.

3. While keeping just your left eye open, increase the convergence. If you hit the stereo hotkey on and off, you will see the images up close shift to the right in stereo, and to the left in mono.

You will need to create a comfortable balance between the two, but in a nutshell, on condition that you are using left shift separation mode in the iZ3D driver, this is a good reference point.

Here is the MTBS stereo settings guide for those unfamiliar about the relationship between separation and convergence:

http://www.mtbs3d.com/cgi-bin/newslette ... ews_id=44/

Score another point for the Schneider-man! 8)

Regards,
Neil

I only skimmed through this because I have not been able to get the IZ3D driver to work with the Z800 but I have to say that I am a bit confused with your problem. With Nvidia drivers you just look at a close object and increase separation and convergence until it looks right. It really should look amazing and if it isn’t then I think maybe the drivers need more work.