WizDish Kickstarter begins Tuesday 18 June

[TheHolyChicken]

Today, the kicktraq projection cone has converged on a single pledge total that exactly matches the current pledge level (Funding: £4,308 of £50,000, Range: Low: £4,308, High: £4,308):
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/654506 ... projection

It seems unreasonable to predict (to an accuracy range of ZERO deviation) that there will be no additional pledges. What's up with kicktraq's strange projection cone estimation, in regards to the WizDish funding campaign?

Kicktraq trending shows £11,775, and you would think the projection cone would be large enough to contain the trending target amount. Right? Somehow these statistics seem a bit goofy to me...

How reliable is kicktraq anyway?

Kicktraq's predictions are super basic. AFAIK it's simply the pledge total from the previous day with some +- percentage thrown in. As there was a day with no new backers, it's therefore multiplying its estimates by 0. Kicktraq can be handy, but don't put too much weight on any predictions it provides.

[przecinek]

I'm suprised Wizdish is having problems reaching even 50% of it's target and at the same time Omni got 1 mil... I honestly find Wizdish a much better concept. It's not too loud and very compact. I was hoping it would cost less like 45 quid or 99 quid at worst. I know I won't be using Omni for a number of reasons but I can picture myself using (a second hand?) Wizdish .

[geekmaster]

I'm suprised Wizdish is having problems reaching even 50% of it's target and at the same time Omni got 1 mil... I honestly find Wizdish a much better concept. It's not too loud and very compact. I was hoping it would cost less like 45 quid or 99 quid at worst. I know I won't be using Omni for a number of reasons but I can picture myself using (a second hand?) Wizdish .

Yeah, me too. The price was unexpectedly high (especially with shipping costs to the largest potential fan base in the USA), after reading about it in the forums before the Kickstarter began. Another big thing holding me back is it looks like it would torque my knees in a way that they cannot tolerate these days, so I really need a "try before you buy" demo.

And celebrity endorsements could have helped tremendously, like Carmack and Abrash telling us what a game changer it will be. Carmack was certainly the deciding factor for many (including myself) on making our Rift purchases.

Even cybereality had posted before the Kickstarter that he would spend up to $200 on a WizDish, although he supported this anyway even at its higher price. It could certainly have gotten a lot more attention if there were some early backer "loss leader" tiers with prices that grab attention over here in the USA, like $179 (or even $199.99). But there is a limit where $200 or more requires spousal approval (or at least serious thought) before committing that money. Marketing and price-points are all-important over here where buying stuff is a way of life.

[npole]

I'm suprised Wizdish is having problems reaching even 50%

I'm not.. since ALL (and I mean every single person) that I showed the thing, started to laugh first and then have asked to me if the guy is trolling or what, and after I've explained them that that thing is someway serious, they continued to laugh.
So imagine if ppl are going to pay money for it if they doesn't even seems to figure what's about... I can't blame em tbh.
Actually i'm surprised that it collected some backers!

[geekmaster]

I'm suprised Wizdish is having problems reaching even 50%

I'm not.. since ALL (and I mean every single person) that I showed the thing, started to laugh first and then have asked to me if the guy is trolling or what, and after I've explained them that that thing is someway serious, they continued to laugh.
So imagine if ppl are going to pay money for it if they doesn't even seems to figure what's about... I can't blame em tbh.
Actually i'm surprised that it collected some backers!

In the USA, based on people I know, there is a price-point of $179.99 that is the maximum you can spend (tax and/or shipping extra) on something that you are not certain will do the job for you. At $180 or more, you need to try it first, or at least see somebody you trust endorsing it (like John Carmack). However, once momentum has been achieved, the popularity will attract a market that is willing to spend more based on that popularity and not wanting to miss out on the phenomenon. That is why it needed early backer pricing below those limits (even if only a limited quantity, and even if below manufacturing cost, just for "advertising" purposes). At least that is how I see it. This kickstarter completely missed that boat, and the substantial market that went with it. IMHO...

[przecinek]

I'm not.. since ALL (and I mean every single person) that I showed the thing, started to laugh first and then have asked to me if the guy is trolling or what, and after I've explained them that that thing is someway serious, they continued to laugh.

Well I have a friend that when playing HL2 said things like "Man ... I wish I could use Wizdish now" while toddling in place etc.
I haven't really shown Wizdish videos to anyone else since he's the only person truly interested in VR. But I see your point of course. The promo video for kickstarter is a bit too sincere

At $180 or more, you need to try it first, or at least see somebody you trust endorsing it (like John Carmack). However, once momentum has been achieved, the popularity will attract a market that is willing to spend more based on that popularity and not wanting to miss out on the phenomenon. That is why it needed early backer pricing below those limits (even if only a limited quantity, and even if below manufacturing cost, just for "advertising" purposes). At least that is how I see it. This kickstarter completely missed that boat, and the substantial market that went with it. IMHO...

Omni kickstarter video has Palmer in it testing the whole thing and while there isn't any direct endorsement I'm sure it helped lots (though I'm sure I remember Palmer saying somewhere he will back Omni if it goes to KS). Of course they also muted the noise Omni makes and replaced it will game sounds from BF3 (which isn't OR ready anyway) ... I wouldn't call this fair but oh well.

If manufacturing cost of Wizdish is actually above $180 then this indeed is a major, major problem.

The WizDish follows the same principles of total simplicity and affordability.

These principles should allow WizDish to compete even in a fully saturated VR threadmill market of the future. Unfortunately even $180 doesn't even come close to what casual gamers consider 'affordable'.

[geekmaster]

The WizDish follows the same principles of total simplicity and affordability.

These principles should allow WizDish to compete even in a fully saturated VR threadmill market of the future. Unfortunately even $180 doesn't even come close to what casual gamers consider 'affordable'.

Yeah, that $180 is what I would pay, knowing I NEED something like this to prevent motion sickness. However, for the general public type of casual gamer who plays games on the family PC, there is another under $100 price-point for "toys", however the under $80 is much more attractive for many people (to keep total with tax and shipping under $100). But the real deal killer for the large American market is international shipping. In the case of the Omni, they announced plans early on to cut down on shipping costs with local pickup at many locations. It would have captured a much larger market to announce a US-based shipping center for the WizDish right at the start of the Kickstarter campaign.

Oh well, maybe next time...

[Zoide]

I totally would have bought the WizDish for $100 + $20 shipping = $120. That's already more than a brand new Wii Fit game with Balance Board (and you can get a used Balance Board for as little as $41 shipped).

But $235 plus $75 shipping plus buying a Kinect for Windows ($220 on Amazon) is just too much. Oh, plus $70 for extra shoes because my wife's feet are tiny. So yeah... around $600 total

Plus import duties and customs fees since I don't live in the US or the EU...

[geekmaster]

I totally would have bought the WizDish for $100 + $20 shipping = $120. ... Oh, plus $70 for extra shoes because my wife's feet are tiny. So yeah... around $600 total

Plus import duties and customs fees since I don't live in the US or the EU...

It was not competitively priced, and the kickstarter shows it. It is even beyond the reach of many potential hardcore WizDish fans, especially when international shipping is added in. I would LOVE to have a WizDish myself, but not at this price...

Even cybereality was expecting this to cost under $200, as can be seen from previous posts. Which closely matches the prices I mentioned (at least for early backers, if not everybody).

[WiredEarp]

Do you really need Kinect for Windows? Whats the problem with using the standard Kinect, which is available much cheaper?

[Zoide]

Do you really need Kinect for Windows? Whats the problem with using the standard Kinect, which is available much cheaper?

To be honest, I'm not sure. This guy claims that the Kinect for 360 doesn't work on Windows 8, so at least in my case I'd need Kinect for Windows:

I think you should make it clear on the kickstarted page that Kinect for 360 and Windows 8 is not working

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.p ... 20#p134575

As far as I know, Flassan never replied to Ziggurat's allegation. I'd love to know whether it's true or not, though.

[geekmaster]

This guy claims that the Kinect for 360 doesn't work on Windows 8, so at least in my case I'd need Kinect for Windows:

I think you should make it clear on the kickstarted page that Kinect for 360 and Windows 8 is not working

Google to the rescue:

Is it possible to use a Xbox 360 Kinect with Windows 8 in place of a Kinect for Windows? ... It does work. I'm using an up to date version of the Kinect SDK, using the Kinect that came with my Xbox and the adaptor for connecting it to a regular USB port. ... The current version of the Kinect SDK does not support the XBOX 360 Kinect. While one could use the beta version of the SDK if you could find it, you would be limited the license that came with it, which means you would be unlikely to sell your program.

So it appears that the problem is not Windows 8, but rather that the latest SDK might not have xbox Kinect support (but there seem to be conflicting replies, as shown above). Also, there may be licensing issues as well...

[WiredEarp]

Hmm, some interesting stuff. Sounds like even under other versions of Windows, you'll be restricted to the beta.

That said, I'm pretty sure there is an open source hobbyist developed XBox Kinect SDK. I wonder what difference in capabilities it might have?
Probably of no use if you wish to use someone elses code developed using the full SDK, but if you are writing stuff yourself, it might be of use.

I was actually just about to buy an XBox Kinect, so i'm really glad I read this now

[baggyg]

Regarding Xbox Kinect, mine works fine here with all the Windows Kinect SDK as well as the NUI stuff etc. I therefore cannot see any reason why this version wouldnt work with flassans software. The only minor thing is that not all Xbox Kinect models come with the power adapter.

I'd really like an update to this. Over halfway through the kickstarter and not one update posted on the site. This really should have been early with testimonial videos etc. If you look at the bigger projects these have tens of updates before the project finishes.

Regardless of peoples opinions, there is an audience for this. Looking through the comments the issue however seems to be

1) No early bird tiers (I too was surprised at this considering I was the first person to back one).
2) Price point too high for people.

[Flassan]

Thanks for the helpful advice and suggestions everyone.

We were under the impression that Kickstarter would be a good place to take a science project like the WizDish. In that regard we may have misread it but that doesn't detract from the fact that this is a really good product with a lot of versatility and potential. There seems to be a far greater gulf between the way its perceived and what it feels like to use than we imagined. I completely hear what you say about price. We had to take a cautious approach to that because we couldn't be certain where we would have to source some of the components and knew we could be subject to import duties. We are not complaining but it does seems as though UK projects have a hard time. We only found this out hours before launching and since then I've realised that hardly anyone here has heard of either Kickstarter or crowd-funding.
We have actually achieved a number of the things we wanted to. By putting ourselves 'out there' we've been contacted by some interesting people with some stunning opportunities.
As engineers we find it best to prove and build upon solid foundations i.e. from the ground up. Our focus is far more on getting the dish and shoes absolutely right at this stage and hope enterprising parties will take up the challenges of motion detection and software. This is starting to happen. Another thing we have to prove is that normal use of the device doesn't cause any harm and serious tests to prove that are imminent. If we want to get entertainment VR off the ground I feel we can't pretend we're there already. If you have the imagination and mental agility this is a fantastic and unrepeatable period of history (akin to the beginning of television) but it's too early to regard VR as an appliance that's ready for Wal-Mart.
Because the WizDish is so versatile it opens up a lot of potential for some really fun new gameplay.
The research on Kinect, Windows 8 and SDKs is really helpful. It highlights the problems affecting all peripherals. The Kinect software was intended more as a free demo. Our thought was that with an install base of over 20 million units you and we would be safer adopting something that well supported. If it comes to it getting hold of the older SDK shouldn't be a problem but I've already noticed that 360 Kinect's sell for less than £20 on eBay and that should still drop a long way. Our latest Kinect software since the demo videos is also far more responsive and quite possibly as good as you will need.
There is exciting information I would like to share but it seems prudent to wait until we can show it.

[ziphnor]

I just got a kinect on ebay for £25 and can verify that it seems to work fine on Windows 8 with the 1.7 SDK (as available here: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/kinectfo ... loads.aspx ) and OpenNI/Nite. Didn't get it in particular for the WizDish, just wanted to play around with it while waiting for my Rift.

As the others mention testimonials are critical, especially when it is hard to visually demonstrate that it feels good to use. The Rift has kind of the same problem, in that the only way to get an impression is to try it (watching videos of people using it just gives you an impression that you will look silly using it, just like with the WizDish . What sells it is the massive amount of testimonials about how well it works from the people who try it. The WizDish needs something like that to succeed.

[Flassan]

Thanks ziphnor.
The Kinect is an amazing piece of tech for £25. I've put our latest test program here if anyone wants to try it: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/590 ... izDish.exe
When your skeleton appears swing your leg to see how quickly it responds. You can either run notepad in focus to see w printing or run something like the Tuscany demo.

[Zoide]

Sounds cool! Are you also going to use the Kinect to detect walking direction?

[Flassan]

Yes, with a good line of sight and adequate lighting and this improved program it seems to do a good job of detecting when you're walking. It's open source and will allow many other movements too. We shouldn't underestimate the scale of the task of developing and supporting a device that can do this. Even if Microsoft were to stop supporting it there are many other places to get help. Why reinvent the wheel? The Kinect 2 looks awesome but there is a lot of mileage left in the first Kinect.

[hast]

Thanks for the helpful advice and suggestions everyone.

We were under the impression that Kickstarter would be a good place to take a science project like the WizDish. .... There seems to be a far greater gulf between the way its perceived and what it feels like to use than we imagined.

As an engineer myself I understand what you mean. You often spend a lot of time building something and assume that other people understand what is good about it without needing you to explain it.

That may sound extremely naive but I've found that once you get far into any field it can be quite challenging to step back and try to predict how people who see it for the first time will react.

We have actually achieved a number of the things we wanted to. By putting ourselves 'out there' we've been contacted by some interesting people with some stunning opportunities.
...
There is exciting information I would like to share but it seems prudent to wait until we can show it.

I hope this means that there is life for the project even if the Kickstarter fails (which seems quite inevitable right now). As a backer at the device level I hope you will make it possible for me to register with you somehow afterwards so you can spam me (and others) when you get a device out there.

[ziphnor]

Yes, with a good line of sight and adequate lighting and this improved program it seems to do a good job of detecting when you're walking.

It seems to do a pretty good job of detecting walking, but what about the direction that you are walking in? Is the intention to leave that to another sensor? (i am thinking that being forced to walk in the direction you are looking would not be so nice).

[blazespinnaker]

Yes, with a good line of sight and adequate lighting and this improved program it seems to do a good job of detecting when you're walking.

It seems to do a pretty good job of detecting walking, but what about the direction that you are walking in? Is the intention to leave that to another sensor? (i am thinking that being forced to walk in the direction you are looking would not be so nice).

It generally works, actually. But you can always get yet another sensor for your body if it really concerns you. The more sensors, the better information you have.

We suspect this is why the new Hydra will have so many sensors, some of the optional.

[Flassan]

It seems to do a pretty good job of detecting walking, but what about the direction that you are walking in? Is the intention to leave that to another sensor? (i am thinking that being forced to walk in the direction you are looking would not be so nice).

Yes, and you are right that separate body and head tracking will further enhance immersion. I guess if you track the body direction you may as well add a third option of gun direction too. We hoped that if we provided the locomotion tool it would encourage others who specialise in that area. The same WizDish should work for any combination.

Before we can add enhancements it was vital to ensure there are no physiological problems with using the WizDish. As you can see from our latest updates we have now proved this:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/654 ... mill/posts

Curiously the thing that most people objected to was the need to balance, which is the very thing that gives it clinical credibility. We had to check that you don't use your muscles incorrectly and balance is an obvious indicator. Also, it may seem a long way off but those with poor balance really need to try to improve it because in later life they will be more prone to falling and breaking hips etc. When that happens they're likely to end up in a home with 2% quality of life.

An ideal place to put an IMU to track body position might be on the anchor point of the harness, between the shoulders. We've found that mounting a sensor on your hips produces quite noisy signals whereas in that position there is very little extraneous motion on the WizDish so a pretty clean directional bearing should be possible. These IMUs look interesting http://www.x-io.co.uk/products/.

[Zoide]

Geekmaster: This sounds like good news for you: "Joint flexion is less for the hips, knees and ankles than for normal walking. For instance, while knee flexion is about 50 degrees for normal walking it’s approximately 5 degrees on the WizDish™." (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/654 ... mill/posts)

[geekmaster]

Geekmaster: This sounds like good news for you: "Joint flexion is less for the hips, knees and ankles than for normal walking. For instance, while knee flexion is about 50 degrees for normal walking it’s approximately 5 degrees on the WizDish™." (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/654 ... mill/posts)

Thanks. That is reassuring. I try to minimize torque on my knees. For me, flexion is not a problem, but unnatural twisting at the knee is a problem (shattered ligaments). I wish there was somebody around here (MN USA) who has a WizDish I can try to be sure. I did not see references to torque or twisting at that link.

[Flassan]

We are very busy right now but I've just added a couple of updates.