On the new drivers...

[DDuckMan]

The announcment is up in the news section guys (sorry if I beat you to it Neil).

The new drivers sound great. However, I'm not sure I am ready to get a new monitor now as I just bought one. Will there be a way to adapt their drivers for general use? Even if it cannot be done, it is great news as it shows it can be done. I am surprised it is possible to write working stereo drivers as a third party though, unless they include modified forceware drivers. Is it a driver set, or possible an all inclusive video driver with stereo built in?

Bring on the software screenshots!

[peter64]

Hey Guys,

Yeah this is great news. I was considering getting an IZ3D but I'de also be interested in knowing if the 3D drivers would work with other displays. For example I know a lot of guys like BigScreen 3D gaming which wouldn't really be cutting into IZ3D marketshare but would definately benefit from there driver technology!

Also i was poking around hte IZ3d site in light of this announcement and found some interesting stuff on one page.

http://iz3d.com/download/

Has some NVidiaGraphics and Stereo Driver. I dunno if they just bundled nvidias driver with some mods or what but I'm downloading to see if this is the stuff Niel was refering to!

So Niel how do we get discounts on IZ3D monitors I'm interested hahaha.

[Gerald]

I am also quite interested. Those darn drivers are the linch pin of the whole thing. SHADERS? 8800s??!!! Awesome! I sure wish these drivers were open source, though : clearly it IS possible to make stereoscopy work WITHOUT direct access to the nvidia/ATI hardware. It would be an incredible, permanent boost to the community if they were open source, as with open source developers on top of a rock solid foundation, we could make stereo drivers that worked with ANY game.

Heck, with access to the internals like that, we could make GTA : San Andreas work! Just insert a filter that prevents the pixel shader calls from getting through to the graphics card!

Further, while iZ3d might not have the development resources to do some of these changes, open source drivers would make it possible.

[VadersApp]

This driver only works with the displays, am i right? Though its great to know that 3rd party drivers arent impossible, but if it only works with those displays, its not usable for me. Just bought a dlp projector for big screen 3D.

I think it?s not the great breakthrough for the 3D-scene i hoped. Of course that would change if a/the driver would work with other display types too.

So i am still hoping that nvidia will release a D3D10 S-3D driver for vista soon (tm). Thats what is needed for future S-3D, because Directx 9 games wont be programmed the next years.

[RAGEdemon]

Great news ofcourse!

I would have some reservations if it wernt for those screenshots you posted Neil... the whole thing seemed reminiscent of the ED "Universal Driver" fiasco

OK, now maybe we can inject some realism scenarios into this thing?

From what you say, its only for their monitors, right? Apart from yourself noone has these monitors... yet anyway.

So, this means that this driver will be a "benefit" for those buying the monitor. I am glad that these people will have proper stereo support, and after spending so much, im sure the driver will sweaten deal.

Now, all that seems great, but it also means that there will NOT be an open source driver and it will NOT be made to function with other technologies such as shutter glasses.


Saying that though, from wat I see from their site, the monitor seems to use page flipping technique to give the frames, and then the polarisation front screen to send the image to each eye respectively.

On a positive note then,

If I understand correctly, this will be the page flipping screen you get on normal monitors if conected to a normal monitor but there will be no DDC signal to go to shuter glasses. So then, it leaves for us to generate our own 3D signal, which is actually pretty simple. Infact, that ghosting fix circuit I put up diagrams for will do just that already.

Ofcourse, I might have it completely wrong. Can you tell us exactly what the driver does, how the monitor works, and what happens when you plug the output from the vid card to a normal monitor?

Also, how would they feel about letting us use the driver with our own EXTERNAL modifications for shutter glasses - im not talking about reverse engineering the driver here - just using it for something different from what it was intended for. Im not sure about the legal ramifications of doing this. I wonder if someone can step in here and tell us what we are or are not allowed to do.

I am assuming they will put locks on it so it cannot be used for anything other than their own monitors... which is ofcourse very fair, and even very common practice nowadays.

Looking forward to gettng this thing working for Everyone

-- RAGEdemon

[Jahun]

Obviously these drivers would never become open source since it will be their big leverage on getting people to buy their monitors, that would be dreaming.. sadly.

Furthermore, I enjoy my big screen for gaming and am riiiight at point of getting another projector for stereo gaming. This doesn't help in that respect. At least it shows it is really possible! (I wonder about performance hit though......)

Ow and ps: great list of screenshots on nvidia 3d forums Freke!

edited out a remark about Nvidia.

[Doom Lord]

This is great news because I really want these monitors to work so this technology can become mainstream and to do this they cannot rely on the Nvidia driver to work also this now includes all the ATI users in the world.

It's also great new because it means the a 3rd party driver will work on top of the hardware drivers.

However this is not great for DLP projector users like me

I am now going to over to the Nvidia forume to have a moan.

Good work Neil, thanks for all the time & effort you have put into this.

[LukePC1]

Great news! Lets make the best of it for the future

Hm if you like BIG screens you might be able to bild a DIY projector of this monitor. Of course this'd be rather expencive, but it should work with the driver afterwards.
The question is just: are there 2 complete displays in there which get polarized afterwards, so you cold use them to make 2 LCD projectors?

An other interesting question is, if non FULL SCREEN applications are supported. Im thinking here of Google Earth for example. Until now there was just the possibility to purchase a seperate driver of DDD which was very expencive and had some disadvantages, too - was it just Anaglyph mode? There is a demo of this driver out there, which allows half the screen to get rendered in 3D, but there was an annoying bar in the middle of the picture...

So runs Google Earth?

[Neil]

Hello everyone!

The drivers are only part of the excitement. When the videos are up, I'm hopeful you will feel equally excited by what we learned about S-3D gamers and the strategies we are moving forward with.

iZ3D has been very focused on perfecting and releasing their monitor, and I don't think they are entertaining the thought of reselling their drivers at this time.

Regardless of the S-3D solution you are currently using, the incentive program is designed for you to be able to get the iZ3D as a secondary or primary solution at an extremely affordable rate.

Please be kind to NVIDIA. They have, and continue to be, the life blood of this industry. This is a very positive step because if NVIDIA had a limited budget before this S-3D development, this innovation now gives them the justification to increase their budgets for accelerated driver releases and enhancement.

My experience with the drivers is that they are on par and perhaps a bit faster than their NVIDIA counterpart - and I play in HDR.

I have already stated on the website that I will not be doing hardware reviews. I will say that the technology has greatly improved since the 17" revision, and I'll leave the rest to the professional reviewers outside this site.

Thanks for all your kind support. Don't worry about the work I put in - it's a labor of love!

Regards,
Neil

[leftler]

Hey neil, do you know if these drivers are going to be

1. locked to the iz3d monitors
2. work only with Page fipping displays
3. will work for any 3D setup.

[Linus Girdland]

Frankly, I think it sucks that the drivers only work with this monitor.

And it feels like the only reason why it only works with that monitor is to make people buy it. As that may be good for the business its certainly not a good thing for the stereo community.

Why not release drivers that work with any stereo setup? The people having projector setups or HMD are not very likely to buy that monitor anyways and focus the sale of that monitor on those not currently having a stereo setup.

I just think its wrong and goes against what I thought MTBS stood for.

Regards,

Linus

[peter64]

This monitor does not use pageflipping it sends out a seperate signal on dualhead dvi video cards only. These two signals are firstly for pixels and the second one is for polarization. As far as I can tell the polarization layer is variable on a pixel per pixel basis and not simple and entire screen switching mechanism as one might be tempted to assume. I do not think it is simply a matter of filtering out the first monitor signal.

I guess after some thought it's sounding better and better. What you have to realize is IZ3D is gona be selling a solution that works. Once these working systems make it into regular end user homes the industry will be better poised for new technologies and recognition from manufacturers (games, hardware, new technologies).

On top of that we are all gona get the opportunity to score a cheap IZ3D monitor as a second display as niel put it! Who wouldn't want a second backup display for when there proj bulb burns out. Or they can't get all the ambient light blocked in there gaming room ...

Perhaps the open source community having seen such a great constructed stereoscopic driver will be motivated to construct one of there own!

[Doom Lord]

Frankly, I think it sucks that the drivers only work with this monitor.

And it feels like the only reason why it only works with that monitor is to make people buy it. As that may be good for the business its certainly not a good thing for the stereo community.

Why not release drivers that work with any stereo setup? The people having projector setups or HMD are not very likely to buy that monitor anyways and focus the sale of that monitor on those not currently having a stereo setup.

I just think its wrong and goes against what I thought MTBS stood for.

Regards,

Linus

I have to disagree with you assumption that this is'nt good for the Stereo commuity. The reason for this is that we need a product that works with both ATI and Nvidia cards, It needs to work and it needs to be simple enough for Joe Bloggs to use. We need stereo to be mainstream so that the people that write the games do it speciffically for the stereo envionment and not as an after thought and I think this takes us a step further to that conclusion.

Lets face it the Nvidia stereo drivers are there to sell Nvidia graphics cards, These are here to sell a 3d monitor. If IZ3D had to rely on the NVidia drivers alone I really think it would fail as a business.

These guys have cracked a decent 3D driver before either Nvidia, Edimensional or ATI why should they have to give it away free whilst the Graphics Card comapnies take the lions share of the profit by selling their own hardware?

[Linus Girdland]

Of course it helps the stereo 3d community, but not as much as it would have had they enabled support for aother kinds of stereo as well.

They could still offer it for sale though. I would gladly pay for it if it works with other kinds of stereo. I think most hardcore 3D-S gamers are not looking to buy this monitor, they already have setups they have spent a fortune on. I could see myself spending at least $100 for a good working driver.

There is always a catch isn't there? Just when you think that finally we have a good driver, sigh.

[Doom Lord]

Of course it helps the stereo 3d community, but not as much as it would have had they enabled support for aother kinds of stereo as well.

They could still offer it for sale though. I would gladly pay for it if it works with other kinds of stereo. I think most hardcore 3D-S gamers are not looking to buy this monitor, they already have setups they have spent a fortune on. I could see myself spending at least $100 for a good working driver.

There is always a catch isn't there? Just when you think that finally we have a good driver, sigh.

Yes, It does seem that way. I totally second what you said. Stick the driver with some 3d glasses for CRT\DLP users and you have a second product . I dont think it would detract from their monitor market as people looking for a new Monitor would then go the LCD root. If I didn't have a DLP I would buy this monitor.

[ravencraft]

I must admit that I'm a little disappointed by the announcement because it is of no direct use to me.

I agree that any new development is good for the s-3d cause but I don't see this as getting s-3d any closer to mainstream acceptance. I think I saw a $999 retail price on the new monitor? While that may be a great price for what they are offering, I don't see it making much of a difference. Even with a deep discount, I think that is a lot to pay for many people.

I was hoping for a better solution for my existing hardware set up of ED glasses and current CRT monitor. At $45 for shutter glasses, it was an easy decision for me to make to try s-3d. At 20 times that price I'm not so sure I would've jumped in so easily.

[Linus Girdland]

The cheapest solution that would reach the biggest audience wold be anaglyph support.

As most ppl today are on flat LCD monitors, the only cheap option to go really is red/blue glasses.

I used to do shutter glasses on large CRT display but later moved to LCD projector and anaglyph glasses, it works much better than I had thought.

A demo version of the driver that is limited in some way and the ability to buy cheap paper anaglpyph glasses would be the best way to reach a large number of ppl to try it out on their current setup.

[Neil]

Frankly, I think it sucks that the drivers only work with this monitor.

And it feels like the only reason why it only works with that monitor is to make people buy it. As that may be good for the business its certainly not a good thing for the stereo community.

Why not release drivers that work with any stereo setup? The people having projector setups or HMD are not very likely to buy that monitor anyways and focus the sale of that monitor on those not currently having a stereo setup.

I just think its wrong and goes against what I thought MTBS stood for.

Regards,

Linus

Hi Linus,

Your feedback is valued, and I think it's important to differentiate MTBS from iZ3D.

MTBS is not in the driver writing business. As additional S-3D solutions come forward with credible drivers and support our efforts, we will adjust our certification standards accordingly.

NVIDIA is very much included in our certification and advocacy efforts, and iZ3D's business practices are a separate matter from what MTBS stands for.

Best wishes,
Neil

[Jahun]

Well I have to agree that in the end, it is great for the community that 3d gaming etc will be alot easier to achieve and way less of a hassle.

That said, I very much prefer my projector setup and also agree that paying 100$ for just the driver to work with them, would be absolutely no problem. They put the big effort in the driver, then just pay for it. Seems reasonable to me.

I understand they want to sell the monitors, but just make the price +- the same as the profit on a monitor sale or so? Would be ideal



Also, can someone point me the big differences between the current Nvidia drivers (with Dragon and Nhancer) and the driver of IZ3D. I have seen quite a few very nice pictures of for instance Freke.. what would be the added benefit of the IZ3D monitors? Better 3D or a wider range of compatibilities..


The one thing that keeps me from buying another projector for stereo, is that you know that IZ3D will be more focussed on a 3d driver as compared to Nvidia atm. Then again, maybe IZ3D fails and driver updates stop after 2years..?

Ow man.. tough.

[DDuckMan]

Well I have to agree that in the end, it is great for the community that 3d gaming etc will be alot easier to achieve and way less of a hassle.

That said, I very much prefer my projector setup and also agree that paying 100$ for just the driver to work with them, would be absolutely no problem. They put the big effort in the driver, then just pay for it. Seems reasonable to me.

I understand they want to sell the monitors, but just make the price +- the same as the profit on a monitor sale or so? Would be ideal

The one thing that keeps me from buying another projector for stereo, is that you know that IZ3D will be more focussed on a 3d driver as compared to Nvidia atm. Then again, maybe IZ3D fails and driver updates stop after 2years..?

Ow man.. tough.

I agree that selling their driver would interest a lot of people, provided their support and performance stayed ahead of nVidia. However, 100.00 would be too steep for all but a few with significant investments already, like your projector setup. For me, 10.00 - 30.00 sounds about right. Much more and I would be inclined to wait and see what nVidia can do.

[lnrrgb]

What were you talking about? ("I would have some reservations if it wernt for those screenshots you posted Neil").. I have searched high (and even not stoned), but can not find the pictures you referenced. A little help would be appreciated. Thx

[RAGEdemon]

http://mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=349

It's a sticky in the game support forum.

Ok then, I can say quite certainly that I will not be buying this monitor as I already have a very good DLP setup like so many here. I see that most others present, won't be either unless there is something like a 70% discount... which will never happen.

So, speaking in down-to-earth terms, what can we expect here?

Neil has already said that they will not even entertain the thought of selling the driver to us, and since this is a product specific driver for their monitor technology only, then nvidia doesn't have any motivation to upgrade their drivers either.

Where does that leave the rest of us?

An nvidia shutter glasses driver with similar functionality is our only real hope but...

The primary goal of any company is to make money. What possible incentive is there for nVidia to make this new driver? This driver, afterall, supports nVidia cards too, and any loss of sales will be only to the tiny percentage of people who own an ATi card AND this monitor. The extra proffit from selling their GPU cores won't even cover the development costs, unless ofcourse everyone in the world suddenly starts buying these monitors in their millions.

I am sure everyone knows that nVidia has the performance crown by far and have very little competition to worry at the moment from DAAMIT (yes yes, I love theinquirer.net).

I hope someone can give a down-to-earth assessment of what this will mean in a positive light. I'm sure we non iz3d users need one

For the people who have this monitor or are going to be buying it... YOU LUCKY BASTIDS!

[Jahun]

From the IZ3D forum:

"
Hi, Jahun!

Technologically we can supply driver with dual monitor capability. But to do it we need to spend a lot of resources to prevent it from free copying, because this specific software is not hardware related as for example graphics card driver.

So, we need to create strong system of authenification and security. This will require a lot of resources from our side. I can not say that this is short term goal for us at the moment.

From other side game market is our main aim - but only few gamers use dual projectors approach to play game. Thus we may start to sell our driver, but may be in mid- or long term perspective.

Regards,
"


Sort of the expected answer.. but his endnote is true. There is not THAT many of us running dual projectors. Perhaps that would stall any piracy or so.

Too bad. Hopefully Nvidia will be keeping up its efforts with S-3D too.

Jahun

[Znith]

Can't say I'm thrilled with this annoucement either. I can't imagine the average user wanting to spend 1k on a monitor to enjoy S-3D. Heck I can't see myself spending $500 on that monitor. I'd rather drop the cash on a projector setup.

This is really and truly not the answer for the average Joe to adpot S-3D. Sure in 5 to 10 years the monitors will be cheaper but we need something in the short-term. It might be a baby step but it's a niche product, just like shutter glasses and HMDs.

[RAGEdemon]

Thanks for the heads up on Iz3D's position there Jahun.

Can you maybe suggest to them an authentication based driver, where a utility would be developed which would scan a computer hardware and generate an ID. this ID would be sent back to IZ3D and they will use this ID to generate a serial number which can activate the driver on your system, and your system ONLY.

This will also mean that the unique ID and serial number will be integrated into the driver and any copying can be traced to the original leak.

Ofcourse the downside is that the driver will stop functioning every time you change computer hardware and will require reactivation with now a different serial umber... but its a small price to pay, in my opinion, for the good driver we have prayed for over the last decade.

Although this is not possible on a large scale such as selling games, on a small scale such as this niche market, it is a perfect solution. They dont have to waste time on copy protection measures and we can all benefit from this new stereo driver in the short term.

I will put my money where my mouth is and support this stereo driver wholeheartedly. I will pay up to around ?200 ($400USD) for this driver if it were fairly regularly updated.

I would be grateful if this message could be passed along.

[Freke1]

Well I have a working S-3D setup (7900+CRT) which makes me somewhat more positive I guess.
Everywhere I look I see standard LCD monitors (22" ~ 500$) and no 3D. Now we can buy a 3D LCD (22" ~ 800-1000$) which is capable of 3D with HDR, ATI cards, Vista and hopefully DX10 soon. This is the best news I've heard in a long time.
Take a look on the number of view on Nubie's thread about a dual LCD setup. Ppl want 3D + LCD + 8800 + HDR. So the number of ppl gaming in 3D will explode. Which means Nvidia's 3D driver will get top priority. Which means all future Nvidia cards will be able to show 3D from the release.
There's no alternative to the iZ3D monitor as I see it. And hopefully the price will drop in the future.

[Jahun]

Ragedemon, you have a point there. But perhaps BlackQ was already referring to such an authentication system in his post..

You are right Freke1, it is a good thing. And I even think the IZ3D monitor is sort of decently priced. I won't buy it for other reasons than price or compatibility. I just don't have the space for another monitor.. and there are no reviews around yet but the monitor will definately not be on par with a high quality 2D monitor. (which doesn't matter much for gaming, but I need my machine for more than that)

Then again, perhaps at last now 3D gaming will become alot more mainstream. Almost no one wants to build a planar setup, and these monitors even though they are priced alot more than normal 2d monitors, give someone with money the chance to just get 3D and be ready with it.

Probably IZ3D knows that they could earn quite some money by selling a driver only. Problem is though that if someone manages to crack it, there will be a drop in sales.. So I suppose they will stay away from that for a while..

[Isei]

Everywhere I look I see standard LCD monitors (22" ~ 500$) and no 3D.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6824001096
Samsung monitor 22", this years model, $318. 3000:1 Contrast with dynamic contrast, iz3d monitor has 600:1 contrast according to their website. Prices go down to $249 for cheaper 22" LCD monitors...

[Freke1]

Ok they are cheaper on the internet, thx.
If I go into a big warehouse (where a lot of ppl buy their new pc) in my country they are ~ 500$. I hope the iZ3D monitor becomes the standard monitor when You buy a gaming pc from Dell etc.

[RAGEdemon]

Freke1 my friend... I do too. I really do.

But I think we all know there is a very low probability of that happening

Maybe i've just become cynical in my aging days

[Jahun]

In time 3D will become mainstream, it must be. It is just too cool

Ow and btw, if anything, IZ3D will be selling very cool shades,

http://store.iz3d.com/dorky.html

[RAGEdemon]

LOL

My glasses have just been "pwnd"

[Freke1]

I'll keep my hopes high - (maybe Neil's enthusiasm has robbed off on me LOL).
Here's something for the 8800 owners:
The 9xxx series will come out around X-mas this year. They will be 2-3 times faster than the 8800. So how about selling the 8800 now and bye a 7900:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi ... rchInDesc=
play in 3D and eventually upgrade to a 9xxx series when it's capable of 3D.
Or does this just suck too much...

[RAGEdemon]

Actually, the 8800 isn't all that bad for stereo. I have been playing oblivion and TR:A, and titan quest with it and there just arn't any decent good games at the moment to warrant any other kind of purchase.

If stereo doesn't work, its not the end of the world as it just means i can just play whatever game with all the lighting effects and an excellent frame rate on a 200" screen albeit with out stereo. There is just far too big a difference in performance between the 7XXX series and the 8800gtx i'm afraid.

I heard rumours about that card you mention on the inq... lets see what hapens with it... hopefully with a bit of luck, there will be a stereo driver for it straight after launch :p

[leftler]

I think that if you could get the word out about S-3D there would be much more interest and more motivation for Nvidia and Ati.

I work at a Best Buy in the computers department, if we had a IZ3D monitor on display running a well written demo, sales would skyrocket.


EDIT---
In fact I am going to send it to the corporate suggestion box tomarrow, Will i get a free 22" monitor if I can get Best Buy to start carrying IZ3D Neil?

[Neil]

I'm not iZ3D - but you can post in their forums or email their contacts. I'm sure they'd respond.

Neil