MTBS Stereoscopic 3D Hardware Guide Release Candidate Series

[Neil]

MTBS is proud to announce "Release Candidate I" of the Stereoscopic 3D Hardware Guide. You can access it at the link below:

http://mtbs3d.com/cgi-bin/rss_blog.cgi?news_id=48" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After reading this, all 2D consumers should have a clear understanding of what is currently available in the S-3D market, and this should assist with their buying decisions for gaming or home cinema use.

All feedback is valued. Please feel free to contribute ideas and suggest additions or corrections if needed. Additional and/or alternative graphics art would be welcome.

Regards,
Neil

[aceace01]

hello i am kind of new.. Great guide.. the only suggestion i have is maybe to add reputable products under each of the methods that the community recommends... i think that would help fellow 3d newbies like me
gain a better directions in which products to invest money into and which scams to avoid. Other than that.. its an awesome guide

[Likay]

It's a great page to show newcomers and people interested in s-3d. It shows the most important things but some links to how to get things working might be needed (nvidia fw-stereopair guides with or without dual cores compability), good softwares, the iz3d-driver which enables more or less everybody to at least try gaming in anaglyph. Overall you made a great job with the overview. Well done!

Edit: Now read "Hardware guide".

cheers

[budda]

Hi,

I disagree with this comment about CRTs

" LCD shutter glasses are best known for working with old style CRT monitors, but CRT monitors are no longer popular or readily available. "

CRTs may not be popular because people have been CONvinced that LCD is better, just like Vista is supposed to be better. There has never been a better time to acquire a used professional level 20+ inch flat screen CRT which would have cost thousands of dollars, say five years ago. There are plenty of them still around going for $150 to $50. Just look on ebay for instance. The monitors may only need some minor tune-ups to work good as new. There are some very popular internet sites just on this topic.

I would like to see you mention the "Red Eye Method" for ghost-free and flicker-free 3D with shutterglasses and CRT. I posted an article about this here - http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=10879#10879


How can all the experts in 3D overlook this method!!!! Its cheap, effective, simple and relevent. There is still plenty of life left in old-school 3D thinking.

Thanks.

[LukePC1]

I agree with the posts before.

But did you leave out dual-projectors on purpose?

I think it might be a good Idea to either mix this guide with the guide about drivers or at least link to them. Maybe even at every part, so users find the right part of the driver guide for thier solution.
(did you make that driver guide jet, or am I fooled by my brain )

you might change that

LCD shutter glasses are best known for working with old style CRT monitors, but CRT monitors are no longer popular or readily available.

into something like this:

LCD shutter glasses are best known for working with old style CRT monitors, but CRT monitors are no longer supported by good and recent drivers. Their drivers are old and run only on NVidia cards to gf7 and without any postprocessing.

Next we need a lot of links to this to get not the same questions all over again

PS: maybe write something about Quadro cards - If you know more about them than I do, because I don't know anything

[Likay]

Found this in Neils post so i believe he touches passive polarization a slight bit:

1. Page Flipped I (Dual Projectors, IMAX 3D)

The consumer dual projector solution requires two aligned projectors with polarizing filters pointing to a single screen. The glasses filter these images based on their “vibration” signature, and the viewers get a complete 3D image. This is a favorite solution among technically inclined enthusiasts, but is also used on the big screen by IMAX 3D.

With the exception of slightly darkened polarized glasses, there is little light reduction because there is no “black phase” on the glasses blocking out 50% of the light. This is also why IMAX 3D is able to show 3D movies on a very big screen.

The trade off is the projectors can easily fall out of alignment, and the 3D effect can be greatly undermined when this happens."

However i agree with neil about crt-monitors future in s-3d. Too bad lcd-monitors broke through before s-3d became common knowledge. Might very well be the most damaging thing that happened the stereocommunity.

cheers

[BlackShark]

Very good guide, but there's one thing that is missing : the shutterglass = headache myth, you really need to talk about it, because for most people who have heard about 3D without seeing it themselves, they think that 3d = headache.

You need to have at least a paragraph about it, you have to explain that it's because lots of people have used shutterglasses on low quality CRTs at low refresh rates and therefore had an unpleasent 3d experience because of the intense flickering.
And then add that if you manage to get higher refresh rates (120Hz) flicker disappears (and headaches too)

And about CRTs , i also agree with neil, CRT's are dead now, and even if i'm perfectly aware that my crurrent LCD is less good (a state of the art samsung 226bw S-series), i would never want to go back to a CRT.
LCD monitors cause much lower eyestrain compared to my old CRT (even set at its maximum 120Hz), i can watch my LCD all day long, which i couldn't do with my CRT. LCD monitors also have a huge advantage in space and weight. I have saved a tremendous amount of space on my desk since i switched, and CRT's are so heavy.
At my school (french national air traffic control school) they still have some old huge 30" CRT monitors they use for displaying 2k*2k pixels radar images. The screens are deeper than wide, and the technicians told me that they weigh about 100Kg each, trust me these guys must be really happy that the school is switching to LCD monitors !

[cybereality]

I think the guide is great, but the introduction needs work. I don't feel like someone completely uninformed about stereo-3d will get the whole picture just from the text written. The first line is a decent opener, but it should have some qualifying sentence after it. For example, many popular video games use graphical tricks to simulate the way the eyes perceive depth (either due to perspective or scale of 3D rasterization, altering the field of view, using depth of field blurring techniques, etc). All those 2D methods could also be labeled as ways to add depth to an inherently 2D image. I'm not sure that distinction is clear. I have seen on gaming forums people even compare S-3D to DOF filters, so there is still some common confusion as to the difference between a 3D game and an S-3D game.

The second paragraph is badly worded. Starting here:

3D is very hot right now.

The first sentence feel like too much of a "hard sell." If S-3D is really that hot, it is not necessary to present it in that way. Maybe "hot" is not the best word to use in this case. I might have said something like:
"Stereo 3D is currently generating a lot of buzz in the film industry." Something a little more modest and give it that "up-and-coming", latest trend, type of feel.

Also, I think in regards to the topic of 3D movies, there should be a distinction made between S-3D and CG animations. Pixar movies like Toy Story or The Incredibles sometimes are referred to as 3D movies (even though that is not correct, it still may be a public perception). Some films, such as Beowulf, are both S-3D and 3D animation. So there should be a distinction. Otherwise I think the guide is great and all the various S-3D techniques seem to be given a fair chance.

My 2 cents: CRTs are practically dead (it doesn't matter if its a better technology, just like Betamax). So CRTs should only be listed for legacy purposes. Flat-screens are what are popular today and you have to stay current with the times and what is available on the market. S3D is supposed to be a future-technology. If you tell someone they have to throw out their 42" HDTV and get a 21" CRT to see S-3D, well, they will not be impressed. The CRT days are over, we need to move on.

Also, I disagree with LukePC1. I don't think there should be any mention of specific drivers or the intricacies of out-dated solutions. That will only confuse a newbie. If interested they can easily read the forum or use google for that information. It will only date the guide to current drivers and methods, when the situation literally changes from month to month. The guide should be as general and non-proprietary as possible.

Overall great work. Its a very informative piece I'm sure will get some new-comers up to speed.

[Neil]

You all make valuable points.

Among other things, I'm going to add more content to the CRT section, however CRT is technology of the past, not present. There is nothing sexy about asking gamers to buy a CRT monitor off eBay. I'm also going to avoid pointing fingers at certain software developers for changing their choice of supported hardware solutions. The purpose of the document is to give readers a taste of what's out there and how things have progressed in a way that is easy to understand.

However, keep the ideas and comments coming.

Regards,
Neil

[LukePC1]

Found this in Neils post so i believe he touches passive polarization a slight bit:

1. Page Flipped I (Dual Projectors, IMAX 3D)

The consumer dual projector solution requires two aligned projectors with polarizing filters pointing to a single screen. The glasses filter these images based on their “vibration” signature, and the viewers get a complete 3D image. This is a favorite solution among technically inclined enthusiasts, but is also used on the big screen by IMAX 3D.

With the exception of slightly darkened polarized glasses, there is little light reduction because there is no “black phase” on the glasses blocking out 50% of the light. This is also why IMAX 3D is able to show 3D movies on a very big screen.

The trade off is the projectors can easily fall out of alignment, and the 3D effect can be greatly undermined when this happens."

However i agree with neil about crt-monitors future in s-3d. Too bad lcd-monitors broke through before s-3d became common knowledge. Might very well be the most damaging thing that happened the stereocommunity.

cheers

sorry to quote so old stuff, but I have to disagree here:
the heading is about pagefliping, which is not used by Dual (output) projectors. It seems to be more like some special dualprojector in one case, which uses pageflipping...

@ cyberreality:
if the thread was only about the future, I'd agree. But if you wan't somethig like a timeline :

Anaglyph
Shutters
Passive Polarization
Hologram technology?

then shutterglasses and CRT's need to be in it. The brand new DLP technology is nearly the same, so it's good to know about it's history

[cybereality]

@ cyberreality:
if the thread was only about the future, I'd agree. But if you wan't somethig like a timeline :
...
then shutterglasses and CRT's need to be in it. The brand new DLP technology is nearly the same, so it's good to know about it's history

Yes, thats what I meant by legacy purposes. Maybe that wasn't the best term to use in this instance. I was just agreeing with Neil in that the technology is dated. Thats all.

[pixel67]

@ cyberreality:
if the thread was only about the future, I'd agree. But if you wan't somethig like a timeline :
...
then shutterglasses and CRT's need to be in it. The brand new DLP technology is nearly the same, so it's good to know about it's history

Yes, thats what I meant by legacy purposes. Maybe that wasn't the best term to use in this instance. I was just agreeing with Neil in that the technology is dated. Thats all.

I agree. You have to separate the display technology (CRT, LCD, PLasma, Projector) from the eye isolation technology (passive polarization, active shutterglasses). CRT is a dormant technology. I say dormant because you never know what the future may hold. I personally don't think shutterglasses are even close to being dead considering the fact that they are required by Samsung and Mitsubishi 3D HDTV's and many DLP projectors (more very soon!). You can buy inexpensive ones from Edim or very nice ones from RealD, who are bringing out a new set very soon.

[Likay]

Agree. Hdtv's and dlp's should really be mentioned with shutterglasses.

cheers

[Neil]

They are:

3. Checkerboard (e.g. Samsung, Mitsubishi 3D HDTVs)

LCD Shutter Glasses are going through resurgence with DLP, Plasma and LaserTV 3D HDTV televisions.

Similar to CRT monitors, shutter glasses alternate very quickly to project two images, but instead of rendering a complete image at a time, the resolution is cut in half and is handled in an alternating checkerboard pattern. This creates the illusion of the complete 2D resolution.


DLP Checkerboard Pattern Sourced From HERE

Fortunately, the nature of stereoscopic 3D reduces the importance of high resolution because of its volumetric nature, and the checkerboard solution does not have problems with under-detailed text that is hard to read the way interlaced solutions do. It also helps that 3D HDTV tends to be 40” or more in size, so the loss in resolution doesn’t impact the fine details the same way it would if the screens were smaller.

However, as with all LCD shutter glasses solutions there is a 50% loss of light because of the glasses’ alternating “dark phase”, and the screens can’t fully compensate for this yet.

Regards,
Neil

[Neil]

Updated the guide to reflect your input. Key updates include:

1. Sharper introduction.
2. Corrections for Dual Output Projectors.
3. A much more detailed CRT Monitor Section
4. A more precise description of the CRT monitor availability.

See what you think:

http://mtbs3d.com/cgi-bin/rss_blog.cgi?news_id=49

Regards,
Neil

[Tril]

It's usually out of the price range of consumers but to have a complete guide, it should also introduce the various types of autostereoscopic displays.

[cybereality]

Tril does have a point. I can understand leaving auto-stereo out too, but it would make sense in terms of completeness.

Also, I feel like this line here is still too much of a hard sell:

If you ask any moviegoer, the words of choice tend to be “it’s so cool!”

As a hardware guide it should stick to the facts and not include anecdotal evidence. You have to assume that anybody reading the guide has to have some passing interest in stereo3d. How else could they be reading the text? So it seems unnecessary at that point to sell the idea. If they are reading the guide, then they have already been sold. But when you use anecdotal quotes it just makes the text lose some credibility. Obviously I know that you know what you're taking about. I'm looking at it from the perspective of a general audience.

Otherwise I think its great. Nice job.

[artox]

Great guide Neil, especially for newcommers. I do agree with Tril however that if you wish to be thorough it is best to include autostereoscopic methods and displays. I don't know if they would be as popular among the consumers but at least one would have a better view of the whole s-3d scene.

[CarlKenner]

You should include the difference between red/blue and red/cyan. You can get both quite easily. There is also red/green.