RealD LP Clone, Cheap Zscreen, passive polarization rotator

Post by **icesterftl** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:50 pm

tritosine wrote:Wow, this would be a dream setup, if 100hz works OK. I contacted someone over iz3d , to try DLP 100 hz with AMD stuff.

I rather choose less color tint but more ghosting ( circular glasses, pol mod? ) , over more color tint but less ghosting (active LC glasses ?).

This model only handles linear polarization but one can add just a retarder plate and it will work with circular one as well.

icesterftl

Post by **tritosine5G** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:39 pm

I'd prefer linear actually, heard it performs better when it comes to ghosting.

However, I m beginning to see the problem:

What I want requires razor sharp switching, because:

100hz RGBWY means every color segment takes up to 2ms time with DLP.

LC shutterglasses have "restart" time of over 2 mS.
-So looks like my only choice is polarization modulator here.

Im very interested in this device. Do you have optoma hd6x or H5360 & similar to try 100hz?

Post by **icesterftl** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:56 pm

tritosine wrote:I'd prefer linear actually, heard it performs better when it comes to ghosting.

However, I m beginning to see the problem:

What I want requires razor sharp switching, because:

100hz RGBWY means every color segment takes up to 2ms time with DLP.

LC shutterglasses have "restart" time of over 2 mS.
-So looks like my only choice is polarization modulator here.

Im very interested in this device. Do you have optoma hd6x or H5360 & similar to try 100hz?

No, I do not have one but this model is guaranteed to work with frame rates up to 500Hz.
What brand of silver screen would your consider for your system/

icesterftl

Post by **tritosine5G** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:03 pm

I already have it , its some laminated synthetic stuff. Works very well, but I wish for more brightness than nvidia, and less tint.

http://www.nexnix.co.uk/3d/3d_projectio ... terial.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope AMD handles this projector better, cause now that I locked onto 100hz, I can't really switch over to other resolutions, because the nvidiadriver went mad.

But this 100hz 2D looks very smooth and very real to me, I m sure its not resampled.

Oh and the colors "pop". If I had mechanical shutter ..................

Post by **icesterftl** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:11 pm

tritosine wrote:I already have it , its some laminated synthetic stuff. Works very well, but I wish for more brightness than nvidia, and less tint.

http://www.nexnix.co.uk/3d/3d_projectio ... terial.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope AMD handles this projector better, cause now that I locked onto 100hz, I can't really switch over to other resolutions, because the nvidiadriver went mad.

But this 100hz 2D looks very smooth and very real to me, I m sure its not resampled.

Oh and the colors "pop". If I had mechanical shutter ..................

What is the problem with nVidia?
It should recognize all video modes that the projector is reporting.

icesterftl

Post by **tritosine5G** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:21 pm

100 hz is a manual resolution, and it works in 3d , but, (BUT), nvfail box opens , not supported resolution blah blah,
then image gets rescaled clearly (badly).

If AMD quad buffer support would truly support 100hz, that would mean I have my 100hz in a correct way, and a polarization modulator
*might be*
fast enough to alternate between views. Not sure about ghosting though.

The numbers speak for themselves,

100hz vs 120hz has probably triple brightness, and more than two times the contrast. The sheer luma value would be enough to compensate for polarization loss, then the silverscreen supposed to do the rest. What we have is some ghosting residual im willing to accept.

If 100hz won't work, I m going to vacuum-ize this nexnix fabric, to obtain torus alike curvature.

Post by **icesterftl** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:58 pm

tritosine wrote:100 hz is a manual resolution, and it works in 3d , but, (BUT), nvfail box opens , not supported resolution blah blah,
then image gets rescaled clearly (badly).

If AMD quad buffer support would truly support 100hz, that would mean I have my 100hz in a correct way, and a polarization modulator
*might be*
fast enough to alternate between views. Not sure about ghosting though.

The numbers speak for themselves,

100hz vs 120hz has probably triple brightness, and more than two times the contrast. The sheer luma value would be enough to compensate for polarization loss, then the silverscreen supposed to do the rest. What we have is some ghosting residual im willing to accept.

If 100hz won't work, I m going to vacuum-ize this nexnix fabric, to obtain torus alike curvature.

Yes,
I run regular DLP full HD at 60 Hz, 30Hz per eye.
nVidia XP has custom resolution mode setup and 100Hz is listed.
In nVidia Windows 7 x64 Pro you can set custom resolution with frame rate to any number you wish.

icesterftl

Post by **tritosine5G** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:25 pm

the geforce is sending 100hz 720p no doubt about that, the projector pop up window letting me know.

Also powerstrip says I have 32bit 100hz...

Post by **icesterftl** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:43 pm

tritosine wrote:the geforce is sending 100hz 720p no doubt about that, the projector pop up window letting me know.

Also powerstrip says I have 32bit 100hz...

The manual says that this projector does not support 100Hz and that 119 Hz is for 3D only.
How does it supposed to work with 100 Hz?
Is there a firmware upgrade?

icesterftl

Post by **tritosine5G** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:13 pm

Yeah this Acer has probably the newest mainboard, as it was serviced in czech repuplic a few weeks ago and they completely removed the mainboard ( it was old, bought in 09)

I have another acer that goes back to service these days.

We have to prepare for AMD 3d, cuz I want windowed 3d, 100hz, and all that. Maybe it turns out I dont _have_ to use time parallel , that would be cool. : ))

If you are interested in the nexnix product let me know.

Post by **cybereality** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:44 pm

@icesterftl: Very nice work man. Any way you can take some photos of how the picture looks through the glasses (like of a 3D movie or game). Would be interested to see how the ghosting compares to other solutions. Also, is this going to be a commercial product (or even built-to-order)? If not, will you be releasing plans?

Post by **icesterftl** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:27 pm

cybereality wrote:@icesterftl: Very nice work man. Any way you can take some photos of how the picture looks through the glasses (like of a 3D movie or game). Would be interested to see how the ghosting compares to other solutions. Also, is this going to be a commercial product (or even built-to-order)? If not, will you be releasing plans?

It is a commercial product since September. The ghosting depends on the silver screen quality. I use aluminum foil (the mate side not the glossy one) as my test screen becasue it has zero ghosting.
The TN cell performance is the same as the one manufactured by LCTEC.
Here is the info:
http://www.lctecdisplays.com/files/data ... FPR-TN.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

icesterftl

Post by **smoothy** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:24 pm

icesterftl wrote:
cybereality wrote:@icesterftl: Very nice work man. Any way you can take some photos of how the picture looks through the glasses (like of a 3D movie or game). Would be interested to see how the ghosting compares to other solutions. Also, is this going to be a commercial product (or even built-to-order)? If not, will you be releasing plans?
It is a commercial product since September. The ghosting depends on the silver screen quality. I use aluminum foil (the mate side not the glossy one) as my test screen becasue it has zero ghosting.
The TN cell performance is the same as the one manufactured by LCTEC.
Here is the info:
http://www.lctecdisplays.com/files/data ... FPR-TN.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

icesterftl

I am a little confused, who makes this modulator and how much does it cost?

Post by **icesterftl** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:23 am

smoothy wrote:
icesterftl wrote:
cybereality wrote:@icesterftl: Very nice work man. Any way you can take some photos of how the picture looks through the glasses (like of a 3D movie or game). Would be interested to see how the ghosting compares to other solutions. Also, is this going to be a commercial product (or even built-to-order)? If not, will you be releasing plans?
It is a commercial product since September. The ghosting depends on the silver screen quality. I use aluminum foil (the mate side not the glossy one) as my test screen becasue it has zero ghosting.
The TN cell performance is the same as the one manufactured by LCTEC.
Here is the info:
http://www.lctecdisplays.com/files/data ... FPR-TN.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

icesterftl
I am a little confused, who makes this modulator and how much does it cost?

Tyrell Innovations and it is around US$400.

icesterftl

Post by **tritosine5G** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:43 am

Tought about this for long, very long. 100hz or 120hz with 2000 lumens won't work without hardware hack , and that would be an extensive , expensive hack. 2000 lumen + polarization modulator would be cool , apparently, 2000* 0.35 = nice.

But 700*0.35 at 120hz? Not so sure.

I will be setting up a 10x gain curved silverscreen to see how the hotspot looks. If its acceptable I'm goin to buy the polarization modulator from Tyrell I.

If its not acceptable, I'll wait until someone hacks the sony shutters to use with nvidia emitter.

Post by **smoothy** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:02 pm

So to use this modulator for $400 from Tyrell Innovations you need just a single 120hz 3d projector. Can that be LCD and DLP? Does it work only with 720p or 1080p projectors as well? With HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.4 projectors? Can it be used with Sky 3D, Bluray 3D players, Nvidia 3DTV Play software for 3DTV's, PS3 3D Or do you need to use these devices with the Optoma 3D XL converter before you send the input to the modulator?

Many thanks in advance

Post by **boomstik** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:25 pm

Wow, amazing wealth of information here. I'm really happy to have come across this thread prior to starting work on a dual-projector passive setup. Hats off to the gurus in the forum.

So, icesterfl and others who already own the magnificent gizmo from Tyrell, I hope you can clarify a few things for me. Is this modulator simply recognized as a pair of 3D shutter glasses by (e.g.) NVidia 3D driver, and other DLP-link devices? Is the USB cable in your photo being used for frame sync? (genlock? i don't know?)

For example, my idea is to take the upcoming Vivitek Qumi LED/DLP 120Hz 3D projector (yes, 300 lumens, but let's disregard that for the moment....), attach the Tyrell modulator to the front, and have a reasonably portable 3D setup, compatible with off-the-shelf hardware and software.
Also, would you see any problems with adding a quater-wave plate (retarder) to the front of the setup, to allow head tilt as well as the use of RealD glasses, which are circular polarized?

If all of the above makes sense, then it could be a no-brainer to put together a compact 3D projection rig for just over $1200 including the screen, which almost does sound too good to be true.

Thanks for any and all responses!!

Post by **tritosine5G** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:30 pm

I gave up cause polarization retaining stuff went on my nerves.

I dont want sparkling screen Im going for retroreflective . *:oops:

Your LED's will be killed by polarizationloss totally, let alone shuttering... And sparkies will be too hard on the eyes by then maybe, with smaller size gets worse & worse Im not sure the gamut is compensated at all with those cheap pj's. Sounds bad.

*Just ordered 1.5 m wide self adhesive rear projection material for 260 dollars incl shipping. 3.2 gain

Post by **boomstik** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:46 pm

tritosine wrote:I gave up cause polarization retaining stuff went on my nerves.

I dont want sparkling screen Im going for retroreflective . *:oops:

Your LED's will be killed by polarizationloss totally, let alone shuttering... And sparkies will be too hard on the eyes by then maybe, with smaller size gets worse & worse Im not sure the gamut is compensated at all with those cheap pj's. Sounds bad.

*Just ordered 1.5 m rear projection material for 260 dollars. 3.2 gain

I will be projecting at a relatively short throw distance, so hopefully loss of brightness will be compensated with that. This is just a proof of concept, so that's not a huge deal anyway. But the main question is, given the above components, is there anything that would technically prevent the setup from working? I mean, does the Tyrell gizmo talk to the projector via DLP-link, or is it controlled by the PC, and if so, are there any software limitations (drivers, players)?

Post by **tritosine5G** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:50 pm

Try to sample some rear projeciton material against silver, your lumen output will be ridiculusly low.

Theres no reason you'd want a LED against a 5360 yet. Spoiled by DLP Link the brightness is even less.

Post by **icesterftl** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:52 pm

smoothy wrote:So to use this modulator for $400 from Tyrell Innovations you need just a single 120hz 3d projector. Can that be LCD and DLP? Does it work only with 720p or 1080p projectors as well? With HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.4 projectors? Can it be used with Sky 3D, Bluray 3D players, Nvidia 3DTV Play software for 3DTV's, PS3 3D Or do you need to use these devices with the Optoma 3D XL converter before you send the input to the modulator?

Many thanks in advance

It works with frame sequential output using D-sub analog connection with frame rates from 25Hz to 300Hz.
The frame resolution is irrelevant as the device works using frame rate and sync only.
It contains d-sub dongle, optical pick-up sensor for use with nVidia's 3D Vision IR transmitter and VESA cable for plugging into either VESA port on display adapter or OPTOMA's 3D-XL.
USB is only for plugging +5V/100mA power either from HTPC or dedicated power supply with USB plug.
The eye sync is obtained via optical pick-up using 3D Vision Kit's IR emitter under Windows 7 and VESA plug and or dongle on WIndows XP or OPTOM's 3D-XL.

icesterftl

Post by **tritosine5G** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:05 pm

how about this scenario

2xLED DLP @ 60hz (demux), spinning mechanical shutter/dimming , retroreflective screen, 120hz LC shutter

this sounds acceptable to me. I calculate nice foot lambert numbers this way & screen is just way better.

2 LED DLP's need to share a common optical path & gamut compensated.

Post by **icesterftl** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:13 am

tritosine wrote:how about this scenario

2xLED DLP @ 60hz (demux), spinning mechanical shutter/dimming , retroreflective screen, 120hz LC shutter

this sounds acceptable to me. I calculate nice foot lambert numbers this way & screen is just way better.

2 LED DLP's need to share a common optical path & gamut compensated.

What is "retroreflective screen"?

icesterftl

Post by **tritosine5G** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:08 am

http://books.google.com/books?id=-pKSy3 ... CC4Q6AEwAA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **icesterftl** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:50 pm

tritosine wrote:http://books.google.com/books?id=-pKSy3 ... CC4Q6AEwAA

If the screen preserves polarization then all you need is set of polarization filters and two projectors.
Why would you need shutters?

icesterftl

Post by **tritosine5G** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:00 pm

A retroreflective screen won't preserve polarization, the nexnix rp material would, but that looks to be lesser quality than those which won't preserve polarization.

Post by **icesterftl** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:48 pm

tritosine wrote:A retroreflective screen won't preserve polarization, the nexnix rp material would, but that looks to be lesser quality than those which won't preserve polarization.

If you want to make frame sequential system why would you use two projectors. Is it becasue you want 1080p? Still all you would need is a frame blanker dongle.
Is your system frame sequential using two projectors?

icesterftl

Post by **tritosine5G** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:58 pm

No, and I suggest using "two projector" frame sequential with LED projector cause the 120hz mode with LED projectors will be severely limited ( DLPLINK white flash waste), 60hz mode is presumably much better, or buying 2x 60hz LED projectors that are sufficiently bright* instead of 120hz LED .
http://www.samsung.com/ca/consumer/offi ... prd_detail" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now Im reading about an " aluminized " rear projection screen with that's cast . Hmm.

Post by **icesterftl** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:41 pm

tritosine wrote:No, and I suggest using "two projector" frame sequential with LED projector cause the 120hz mode with LED projectors will be severely limited ( DLPLINK white flash waste), 60hz mode is presumably much better, or buying 2x 60hz LED projectors that are sufficiently bright* instead of 120hz LED .
http://www.samsung.com/ca/consumer/offi ... prd_detail" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes,
but this will give you 30Hz per eye and you would need mechanical or LC shutters for each projector becasue LCD projector would give you ghosting on the blanked frame if using blanking dongle.
Do you thank you can stand 30Hz flicker?

icesterftl

Post by **tritosine5G** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:45 pm

Why it would be 30hz per eye?

It could be even ~120hz per eye with careful tweaking, cause the LED frequency is high ~900hz colors are generated rapidly , so it can be alternated between 2 views just as 2x LCD projectors who are "hold" all the time. In my opinion.

Post by **boomstik** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:56 pm

icester,
the D-sub dongle that you mentioned - is that an in-line VGA dongle, which passes through VGA, but picks up vsync and sends it to the modulator via a separate cable??
meaning, I have to use VGA in order to drive the modulator and projector?
What if the projector has an HDMI input, how does the modulator get frame sync?

Post by **boomstik** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:10 pm

Also, in addition to the above... Let's say I want to use the IZ3D driver for frame-sequential content. This means the NVidia emitter will no longer work. Does the rotator support emitters other than NVidia's for eye sync?
(and on that topic, what other emitters would people on this forum recommend for use with iZ3D or DDD drivers?)

Post by **icesterftl** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:53 pm

boomstik wrote:icester,
the D-sub dongle that you mentioned - is that an in-line VGA dongle, which passes through VGA, but picks up vsync and sends it to the modulator via a separate cable??
meaning, I have to use VGA in order to drive the modulator and projector?
What if the projector has an HDMI input, how does the modulator get frame sync?

Yes,
sorry no HDMI 1.4a support yet. But if you are talking about HDMI 1.3 120Hz 720p then the sync for both frame and eye order can be obtained via optical pick-up from nVvidia IR emitter or VESA in case of OPROM's 3D-XL or HTPC with Wndows XP.

icesterftl

Post by **icesterftl** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:01 pm

boomstik wrote:Also, in addition to the above... Let's say I want to use the IZ3D driver for frame-sequential content. This means the NVidia emitter will no longer work. Does the rotator support emitters other than NVidia's for eye sync?
(and on that topic, what other emitters would people on this forum recommend for use with iZ3D or DDD drivers?)

On windows 7 both iZ3D and DDD can create frame sequential output but without eye indexing which requires manual eye order correction at all times it is reversed.
ATI claims stereoscopic performance but does not provide VESA output or any other hardware output that would drive third party LC shutter glasses.

icesterftl

Post by **ryanosman** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:49 am

IMPORTANT

icesterftl is Mathew Orman, also known as Tyrell Innovations. U.S. website, your money is sent to Poland.

Please see here:

http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID ... 9601839808" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I decided to order Mathew's DLP Link 3D Muxer in December 2010, and after an invalid tracking number and many excuses, I never received the item. I got my money back from Paypal in mid February. I'm confused because Mathew certainly seems to be very knowledgable, so either it has all been an honest mistake (I hope so, because I still want to get my hands on that device if it is for real), or this is a bizarrely complex scam... that only works if you don't use paypal. I thought it was important that the readers of this link know about this, and Mathew, you know I am still in contact trying to order a Muxer, and if I ever recieve one, I will absolutely post here. In the meantime, if anyone has any other anecdotes about this subject, chime it. I have yet to find someone who has ordered and recieved something from Tyrell.

-Ryan.

Post by **tritosine5G** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:33 am

this seems so irrational ...

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:00 pm

Interesting. Mathew Orman is pretty active on the AVS forum, and appears to be pretty knowledgeable on 3D matters. I believe that he does actually have that device and probably built it himself. Whether he is scamming people or not, I don't know. But it would seem like a strange scam to pull. I mean how many people would really order something like that? Not that many. Usually scammers go for popular or high surface area targets. Seems strange to do this for something so niche.

Post by **Fredz** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:49 pm

I don't know if it's a scam, but I don't think Mathew Orman is that knowledgeable. I've seen him writing plain wrong informations on other forums (and corrected him one time), and he's also quite arrogant in general.

Post by **Amblix** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:54 pm

Mathew Orman is a SCAM SCAM SCAM!!! I even paid for express shipping, been over 3 weeks and still nothing, no returned emails and had to recently file a claim with paypal.... this criminal should be banned... he's quite a jerk to boot

Post by **Neil** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:27 pm

For me, the issue would be if he has been trying to sell something in our forums and/or if he was pretending to be a customer to try to sell a product as a representative of the company. Has this happened on MTBS? Can you supply some direct links to support this?

Regards,
Neil