eDimensional IR protocol

Discussion of legacy stereoscopic 3D gaming hardware and software (e.g. NVIDIA XP stereoscopic 3D drivers).
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truhlikfredy
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eDimensional IR protocol

Post by truhlikfredy »

Hi

Long story short: Does anybody know how the IR protocol for eDimensional glasses work?

Long story: I got 2 x eDimensional wireless glasses with dongle about 7 years ago. Just long time ago and I was very satisfied with them :woot , I had powerful desktop and powerful IBM 21" pro CRT, good fps, high resolutions, overclocked refresh rates and usually around 100Hz for each eye (so I had bean able to clock the CRT from 160Hz to 260Hz even on high resolutions). Then 4 years ago I moved to different country. Because I took plane I just got especial thing to keep me working (laptop instead of desktop) and the glasses with dongle. Being desktop guy explains that my notebook was very low end model, playing games impossible. But my plan of getting desktop soon crashed, living more expensive than expected, income less than expected and what worse the working hours much more than I expected left me with just laptop. So I wasn't able to use the glasses for around 4 years, then I quit my job and got much more time. Got lenovo W700ds laptop what is powerful enough (more than enough), got external LCD etc... And now I found out that nvidia canceled the support. OK will make my own hardware synced to the glasses. The next thing I found out that my dongle doesn't work. I got the activators what I remember worked even when you drivers didn't had support. I have good scope here, and I wanted to make my own dongle imitating the IR signals. But it's much harder to reverse engineer the HW when it doesn't work. I remember the protocol should be very simple because the regular IR remotes working at 32kHz are triggering the glasses. But it's just try and error tactics. Does somebody had it hooked to the scope? I refuse to get the nvidia glasses because they are bastards, they are selling almost the same hardware but intentionally killed support for older to force people buy new ones. If somebody could just give me hint or clues what they think it work then I would be very graceful. Or some dumps from the scope and I will figure out how it does work. Then I'm willing to share the hardware designs with everybody when I will be done. Even I want try to add some features. Like to be able to sync it to the LCD by visual. Light sensitive led first registers the flickering and then you could manually adjust and fine tune the timing. So you could have 3d without using external displays. I got Iz3D working so if I would be able to with yours help have the imitation of the eDimensional IR protocol then you could play 3D on primary display on laptops (if you will have good refresh rate on that display, or if you are willing to suffer with 30Hz :D ). But having the hardware I think would help community and others in similar situation. Somehow I would like to force myself to create the support for the older devices, to make point. Because I think every company pretends like they reinvented the miracle and are trying to hide the fact the stereography was here much longer and they just ignored it and now they are making boom from it and think they will get all very rich.

So for any hints I would be very graceful.
Thank you Anton
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cybereality
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by cybereality »

You do realize 3D glasses will only work on 3D displays, right? (its not like the old days where any old CRT would do 3D). Unless you still have an old CRT, then it ain't gonna work. And if you spend the money to get a 120Hz 3D monitor, you might as well just get the Nvidia glasses (some packages even come with the glasses). You can get the wired version for under $99 and they do still work on CRT if you want to try them. Don't hate, Nvidia has been a huge supporter and promoter for 3D gaming. Probably more than any other company (aside from MTBS obviously).
truhlikfredy
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by truhlikfredy »

That's absolutely not true. I can do it even with paper if I'm able to switch them fast enough and with sync with shutter glasses. If there is a will then you can do anything.

If you mean that the nvidia stereo won't enable itself until the hw is present then it doesn't matter, I have the iz3D working in shutter mode. (as I mentioned before).

And there is no point arguing what can be done and can't I know that it will work for me when I imitate the IR protocol. I know what I can do with my hardware and what is it capable of. Like you did the parallax foils with the vertical interlaced lines, somebody could tell you it's to complicated to be possible etc.... And I have something like that, I found new way to sync it and could be done on just any display (even primary on laptops). Just the protocol is holding me down. And that's the point, I don't want to argue what can be done and what not, I would like to discus rather any ideas about the protocol. I know it's just plain and primitive one, but without working unit it's just blindly hit or miss. I don't want to buy another unit just to find that 2 pulses are "left on, right off" and 1 pulse is "left off,right on".

I'm not saying that is not cheaper, but why you should pay again 100$ for hw when you paid $400 for almost the same hardware and it was made intentionally not compatible. And I know it could work just they did it so that I should spend again 100$. That's like you mobile provider will make changes in network to break your phone and force you buy new even you know the old one was perfectly fine for you and you didn't needed to get new one. And it's not like new band so 900Mhz phone won't work on 1800MHz network, just deliberately changing from 900MHz to 910Mhz and shutting down the 900Mhz just to get money from you for the absolutely same thing.

If I had to spend money, then I would get rather 2 pico projectors, bucket of silver paint to paint a wall, 2 pairs of CPL glasses and make that under 100$ rather than getting new active glasses again.

Nvidia had best support for the stereo and that's why I always got nvidia products instead others for past 7 years. But then they decided to make from the market their monopole and that bold move I can't forgive them.
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by PalmerTech »

truhlikfredy wrote:if I'm able to switch them fast enough and with sync with shutter glasses.
Therein lies the problem. Most LCD monitors are simply not fast enough at switching! LCDs were made to be hold displays, and unless the panel you are using is capable of high refresh rates and low response time, it is going to look terrible, either lots of flickering, or lots of ghosting. Most 3D LCDs go above and beyond that, and have special modes for 3D that overdrive the panel, allowing for faster switching rates. On top of that, you often have issues with the fact that LCD panel light output is polarized (Unlike CRTs), which older glasses designed for CRTs do not account for. This can lead to odd colors, extremely low brightness, and other problems.

I really do wish you luck, and I skew towards your view of Nvidia, but I am not sure you will be able to get this working. Do you have a particular display in mind that you believe will work?
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by Likay »

@truhlikfredy
You said you make the iz3d work in shuttermode?
I tried both my samsung syncmaster lcd (not 3d-compatible) as well as iz3d and also my lcd-projectors with e-d shutters (with both their special lcd-modes) with no senseful result at all. The displays are just way to slow to handle proper shuttering while the old philips crt made it just fine.
It was a few years ago i did this though but the result shouldn't had changed.
Mb: Asus P5W DH Deluxe
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3D:100" passive projector polarized setup + 22" IZ3D
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truhlikfredy
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by truhlikfredy »

I have the fail safe for the worst case scenario (I know how bad the stereo it is with regular 60hz lcds and I don't want to discuss them, what lcd I have or what I expect and what I will get etc...). I have still the insane IBM CRT at home, actually I will go on holidays and there I want to play most. I want be finished till Christmas, so even in the worst case I will have CRT what I know works excellently well with the shutter glasses. But till I get home I need to have the dongle replacement done (all development equipment is here so I need to have working and finished device when I get home). So I just want to do it with LCDs, when I will have it done with LCD I will know it will work with mine CRT back home.

So please there is no point discussing why I want to do it, I will just do it.

I would like to ask again, anybody any clue how the eDimensional IR protocol works? For example I think I know how the Nvidia protocol works but I don't know how much the eDimensional have something common with it. Perhaps somebody who has both nvidia and eDimensional? How the eDimensional glasses react with nvidia transmitter. Even knowing that they force eDimensional to have some sort of glitch would help to start off.

PS: Thank you for support, it's good to know that I'm not the only one who isn't so glad about the nvidia decisions. I'm not hater, still I will buy nvidia cards, but I feel betrayed about the support of old devices (or better said all non-nvidia ones). I just wish best luck to ATI to survire in the market, because I don't want be on mercy of selfish nvidia monopoly. Perhaps Microsoft will rescue us with dx11.1 stereo support. If it will be true, it will be game changer.
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cybereality
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by cybereality »

Well I can understand your need, I was just saying that its probably not going to work. I have tried to test old shutter glasses on LCDs (2 different ones). The first one was polarized, so the screen was black. The next one was visible, but the flicker/sync was a mess. Only for a few brief seconds randomly would there be 3D. I know there are some companies out there that claim they got 3D to work on 60Hz LCDs, but I doubt it will look that great even if it works.

I don't want this to turn into an Nvidia flame war. But I just find it funny that people had no problem drinking the green Kool-Aid for years when the Nvidia 3D driver was 100% free, but as soon as Nvidia wants to see some ROI, then people jump on the hate-train. Nvidia has probably done more for 3D gaming then any other company out there, and I even doubt if Nintendo would have brought out a 3D gaming system has Nvidia not got the ball rolling on the PC previously. I do wish they would have continued open support, but I can't blame them for wanting to make some money off of this.
PalmerTech
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by PalmerTech »

Neither can I, but why not take the tack of TriDef and IZ3D? Heck, I would probably pay $100+ for an Nvidia driver that supported all kinds of different hardware.
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cybereality
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by cybereality »

@truhlikfredy: Also, I assume you tried the e-d activator? I recall some people having luck using the blue-line coding in the e-d activator and an older iz3D beta driver (from 1.12) which supported BLC.

@PalmerTech: Sure, I would pay $100 too, I bet a lot of people would. Such is life.
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by WiredEarp »

The problem with Nvidia is they help 3D gaming, but they also hurt it. After all, its not like the old drivers gave them no ROI - I would have quite possibly bought Radeon if they had supported 3D at the time - it was a selling point. I can't blame them for wanting to monetize it, but I dislike that they built up a system only to destroy it. I wouldn't care so much if 3D Vision supported everything that the old driver did, but I don't think it does. It makes me paranoid to invest in Nvidia, in case they do the same thing again in a year or two...

@ truhlikfredy: I really dont think you are going to get any sort of decent 3D going on 60hz LCD's. There have only ever been a couple of people who claim to have gotten eDimensional going with LCD properly and thats a rather dubious amount considering the number of people who have reported failure due to excessive ghosting. I have eDimensional AND 3D Vision tho so if you succeed i'll be glad to hear about it!
truhlikfredy
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by truhlikfredy »

Hi everybody, I had to take a break because it was getting all more flame-like than constructive.

WiredEarp. You have both, could you test when you enable nvidia 3d how (even if) the e-dimensional glasses will react when they are turned on. If there is any interference between them then If you could describe it in as much detail as possible. Thanks.
truhlikfredy
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by truhlikfredy »

cybereality: no luck with activator, I think something internally is damaged in hardware of the dongle. Exactly what I meant, I didn't mind to pay 100$ extra even more and I chose nvidia cards just because of that (so the stereo support helps revenue even if its free and supports 3th party glasses ONLY, like it was in the past), but I mind to get stranded and be forced to buy 100$ glasses what I didn't want while glasses what I have are discontinued. Perhaps everybody is counting with 1 glasses and it's easier to forget what happened, but I have more than 1 and somebody could have dozens and nvidia f*cked them over.
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by Fredz »

What do you want to do exactly, a software or a hardware modification ?

If you want a hardware modification, you may have a look at these threads which explain the IR protocol used by the 3D Vision emitter and show how to create a circuit to drive VGA DDC glasses (eDimensional) by reading the IR pulses. But I guess the cost of the circuit may be close to the one of the 3D Vision kit, hence not worth the effort :
- Hacking Nvidia 3DVision
- [DIY] Universal sutterglasses controller

If you want to do a software modification, you should basically write a device driver which intercepts vertical retraces and send a DDC signal to the glasses. You can find some Linux code about these operations in the following threads, but adapting that for Windows should prove a lot more complicated :
- DDC glasses activation for NVIDIA graphics cards under Linux
- Compiling and using Genlock on Linux

You could also try this solution to emulate the presence of the 3D Vision emitter :
- http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.p ... 344#p58344" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then you would have to find a way to activate your glasses by sending them DDC signals at each vertical retrace, using a homebrew electronic circuit like the ones presented in this page :
- http://www.stereo3d.com/homebrew.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by truhlikfredy »

I want exactly replace my non-working eDimensional dongle without any other hardware modifications + with different approaches (I want make different hardware than original, it will work differently, but it will communicate to the glasses like original). If I want to break apart all my glasses then I could drive them with my custom controller, like in link you send. But I don't want to break glasses apart. I don't need to create 3D vision controller, or faking 3D vision presence (because I have already iZ3d).

What ever I want to do doesn't matter, because I know what I exactly need for it, and that's description of IR protocol for eDimensional glasses. You gave me IR protocol for 3D vision, or custom controller and even wired one. For example I want to try different and nove approaches to syncing. So even if I would describe it in absolutely detail and you will give me link to everything else than IR protocol for eDimensional then it won't help me.

To reverse engineer hardware that doesn't work already is pain in the ass. But now I'm starting thinking that will be easiest to get me another eDimensional dongle from ebay and reverse engineer that, because after 13 posts, just flame or wasting time. Multiple tries to ask something about the IR protocol, or at least get to know how similar are to the 3d vision protocol. Here are people whom owns both, I asked multiple times how the eDimensional react with 3dvision emitters at least to know how common they are and where to start (when I have to blindly try/miss approach, at least I want to have some start point worth trying). So no reaction to the ir protocol itself but I got lot of attention around everything else.

It's like when you ask politely somebody for current time and he answers you nicely 'What a beautiful day.'. Yes you are thankful for his kindness, but his replies are for you absolutely useless. You know at least some answer, any answer. Even getting 'Nobody knows the eDimensional IR protocol' would be answer to my question and it would be much better than getting answer for everything else.
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cybereality
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by cybereality »

Well you are asking about something proprietary and niche, its no surprise its not widely available knowledge. I think people, including myself, were just trying to find out what the end goal was so we could suggest other (possible cheaper and less time consuming) options. But it also seems you are not open to any other options, so its difficult to help you here.
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by WiredEarp »

Unfortunately, my eDimensional setup is disassembled currently to make way for the Z800 setup, and I don't really wish to play with it. It was very nasty getting my Z800 to work this time around (it needs to be the primary device to display proper stereo) and I don't really want to play with it again.

I'm also missing a battery for the glasses, but if I manage to find one I'll test it against the 3D Vision emitter. My guess is it will NOT be triggered by it.
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by truhlikfredy »

Yes, but for example the 3Dvision is already reverse engineered and it's proprietary too. So I was wondering what experience have guys with eDimensional protocol.

Perhaps member named WiredEarp could test them how they interfere. He has both of them.
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by Fredz »

Your first question was quite far from being clear, that's why you didn't get the answer you were looking for. You were also not particulary kind with people trying to help you, which didn't help either.

In fact I only understood what you wanted by reading your last message. Had you simply posted this question clearly, you would have had the answer faster.

Simply have a look here : http://www.stereo3d.com/discus/messages ... 1264457003" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's for Elsa Revelator IR codes, which is equivalent to eDimensional according to this topic :
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=36728" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And by the way, that was a 2 minutes search on Google. Good luck with your project anyway...
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cybereality
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by cybereality »

Here is the zip file so its saved for eternity:
3D-Revelator_IR_code.zip
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truhlikfredy
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by truhlikfredy »

Fredz and cybereality Thank you very much. In meantime I begun on something else, but I should be done in 2-3 weeks so then I will start with this project and I will keep you posted when I will be finished. Perhaps to some other folks here could be useful too.

Sorry that I was agitated, but sometimes the forums and the discussion inside just go the opposite way you hoped it will go. So when I can't steer it back I get irritated, I'm sorry. Tell me what was wrong about my fist sentence and my question "Long story short: Does anybody know how the IR protocol for eDimensional glasses work?". I'm genuinely curious if just all my fault, because I see many forums work like this:

You ask for something, they got first suspicion that you didn't read manual even if you stated that you did, you didn't google it even if you did. It's similar sometimes with customer care, when you try to explain them you have very technical problem and you have to for all the time answer ridiculous questions about if the device is powered, if you sit on the right side of the screen (not staring on the back-cover) and this that could do just the stupidest consumers and even when you tell them what is the precise cause of the strange traceroute they will keep you on line for another 30-60 minutes to decide that they can't help you. And there is no way to skip them and ask them directly to get to tech support level 2 or 3 directly. And don't tell me it doesn't irritates everyone else when is there tiny problem, you know what is it, how it can be solved and it could be solved under 30seconds with right person, but you spend 60minutes on the phone doing bullshit and then most-likely won't you transfer you to Level 2 but you have to call next day to exclude it didn't change overnight and next day you doing it from the beginning another 60minutes of the same .......
And yes they are paid to help you but they are doing more damage than helping you.

For example I were working with one embedded compiler and I were looking for one specific pragma parameter, I know that it existed because I reverse-engineered binaries produced by the compiler and I knew that it can do it. It was non-documented feature what was for and used by the compiler-developers them-self. But I got accused from all sides with people that didn't read the manual that I didn't read it, just because they had not clue that it wan't there. So I got "RTFM" "Why is it in fashion that nobody reads manuals.". You couldn't google it, it wasn't in any documents/manuals so perhaps wise people on forums would know it. It took me weeks to explain them that really isn't in the manuals, them they agreed at last. But then WHY I need it, so it was for a specific reason when you mix a lot of ASM and C code that evolved to WHY it can't be everything done in C that evolved to flame war between other brands of C compilers. Then it took me week explain them why is the ASM so important and how tight time-restrains are at that moments that it can't be done else. That got into ASM fanatic war where I should do everything in ASM. So I gave up and after month reverse engineering all libraries (some with debug symbols) helped me to get it, so I posted them what it was that I were looking for and then they 100% agreed that wasn't documented and it's much more handy to use 1-liner to get result than rewriting 100% of C code into ASM.

I think this is problem with forums in general, not that you don't ask what you need and mean, but they didn't believe you and you have to convince them that the question what you are asking is really the question what you want to be answered. And you really mean that when you ask them.

And that's the problem you need to feed background info 'why' you need the answer. Without the background info you won't get . And even when you are 99% done with the project and needs just detail to finish it, then everybody tell you should scrap it and do it different way. But I'm not irritated that I get negative or bad answer to my question, we don't know, try to reverse engineer the rest of the compiler, perhaps you will find it. It irritates me when I get answer to absolutely everything else I didn't asked for.

I spend 2 weeks googling it, I got the 3d vision protocol, then protocol for customs glasses, but I didn't get the Elsa protocol, most likely I had no clue there is Elsa in existence and that they are the same as eDimensional. If you would just tell me try to search for Elsa IR protocol then I could google it by myself and I would be very thankful. I'm not lazy to google, read, search etc... but sometime you just need push to the right way and then when I see I get guided to absolutely wrong way then I'm not pleased. It's like helping blind man crossing street, of course he is thankful for you kindness and you attention, but when you take him away from to street somewhere else then it's much worse than telling him that he should cross the street alone.
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cybereality
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Re: eDimensional IR protocol

Post by cybereality »

Sometimes what you are looking for isn't what you really want, and what you think you want isn't what you actually need.
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