MTBS Interviews: Andrew Fear, Product Marketing , NVIDIA S3D

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MTBS Interviews: Andrew Fear, Product Marketing , NVIDIA S3D

Post by Neil »

MTBS Interviews Andrew Fear, Product Marketing Manager for NVIDIA GeForce 3D Stereoscopic Technology. He answers some tough questions, and shares some enlightening announcements on the direction they are headed.

Post your thoughts here.

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Post by Tril »

Very interesting. I think that's the first time I ever hear someone from NVIDIA officially talking about their stereoscopic 3D support and stereoscopic 3D goals. If I read correctly, it seems like we will get shutter glasses support back in the NVIDIA stereo driver when the NVIDIA shutter glasses are released at the same time as the Viewsonic 120 Hz monitor. That means new shutter glasses before the end of the year.

Almost all current affordable shutter glasses share the same design but are sold under different names. It's about time some company releases a new design of wireless good quality shutter glasses.
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Post by nubie »

I am cautiously optimistic. While he did say that nVidia wants to support many displays, he didn't say specifically that support was coming for XP or any/all displays.

I don't like the "we will enable support for the display", it will either work or not, I guess they want an all or nothing approach to avoid bad word of mouth on a half-baked support.

I like that DLP is supported, but I hope that means that any DLP projection system is supported (assuming a fast enough wheel/refresh rate of course).

I like that SLI is supposed to work, but will we be able to have more displays showing 3D? For example, 3-6 screens of shutter-glasses, or possibly twin dual-polarized displays (4 outputs needed).

At the bare minimum will there be support for SLi on dual outputs so we can see HMDs or projectors or Planar on SLi?

Support for which cards exactly? If I am on XP with a pair of 7900GS cards in SLi I am going to assume that I am not supported under the new drivers?

The 800-pound gorilla riding a white elephant question: When will the drivers support shaders? Pretty useless to not support shaders in this day and age.

So I am skeptical, but I am happy that nVidia is moving forward, and plans to move more quickly in the future. (I can't really be angry anymore because we can turn to iZ3D and AMD now for a 3D solution at a comparable price, this isn't news to nVidia I am sure. They may not be planning on bringing support to XP, so there isn't any competition there, but in Vista this may indeed be competition, which is healthy and improves all of the products.)
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Post by Damo3000 »

"Right now our glasses support the new ViewSonic® pure 120 Hz LCDs, Mitsubishi® 3D DLP® HDTVs, generic Texas Instruments checkerboard pattern 3D, and analog CRTs that support at least 100 Hz refresh rate."

Well my projector (benq mp721 DLP) is only able to work in 3D at 85hz. Does this mean Im out of luck I wonder. I dont know much of anything about Texas Instruments Generic Checkerboard pattern 3D, I dont know if that applies.

Man I reeeeeally dont want to have to buy another type of projector. This 3D business is getting expensive. But Ill tell you one thing, Im gaming on a projector no matter what. Funny enough, why cant their glasses support all the different setups people currently have with existing shutterglasses setups. It worked before, why cant it work now as well.

Anyways, Im glad Nvidia opened up a little. Im looking forward to the shutterglasses, they look good and the USB recharge is a really good idea. Another thing Im concerned about is the distance that their glasses will work from the emitter. Anyways, look forward to more info over the coming months.

And Ill be watching this thread thats for sure!

Damo3000
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Post by BlackShark »

The interview confirms my thoughts about nvidia's marketing strategy.

Although nvidia is a strong supporter of s-3d, they mainly want to push the technology forward, especially if it's their own technology.
They want newcomers to buy the new stuff (new nvidia shutters, new monitors) for better results than stick to the old hardware, which worked well but had flaws.

nvidia is pushing for more s-3d, more 3D monitors, more SLI, more Vista and more DirectX10 all at the same time, and they need a consistant marketing strategy.
there have been too many ruptures in both hardware and software world (CRT to LCD monitors, XP to Vista, death and rebirth of S-3D)
So they can't promote S-3d for winXP if they want to promote DirectX10 and vista
They can't promote modern S-3D monitors and support old shutter glasses that only work with CRTs.
They can't sell the great new expansive gadgets if the old stuff still does the same job.

Nvidia is preparing the inevitable hardware update that almost all of us are going to make in the next years.
So I'm not expecting nvidia to support the good old solutions we currently have, but i'm expecting them to support future S-3D solution that will come out in the next years.

The problem is that since they've been busy preparing the future, they stopped supporting present hardware. People joining the S-3D community right now, or updating their S-3D equipment are not getting any support from nvidia and they're getting angry for this.

Now, other companies are joining the S-3D market like IZ3D, and i can't say if nvidia will manage to come back in time to get the whole market once again or if consumers will prefer an other solution that supports their old hardware.
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Post by LukePC1 »

I hope that NV makes a good driver and other tech. It will help to draw awareness to S-3D. And many drivers make shure we get the best results for old AND new hardware.
I still hope that IZ3D fixes as many glitches from their driver ASAP, so that it is stable when NV driver (and hardware?) still hase some problems - especially with older hardware.

I like the part, that CRT with 100hz+ will be supported. It's great for people who want to 'try it out' or who don't want to spent thousands on the new technology when it is in such a stormy movement like now...

oh and the advantage of old hardware is, that you know that it works and how...
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Post by FR3D »

I'm gaming 3d since november 1999 ( asus shutter glasses - Quake 3 Arena ) .
I introduced several friends in 3d gaming - and now i'm playing with an old 7900gtx and i'm still waiting for a solution supporting my old fashioned hardware. ( Planar / Z800 / dual Projector )

I WILL NEVER BUY THIS NEW NVIDIA / ZALMAN ONLY SOLUTION !

I'm hoping that the new IZ3D driver will work soon, because i'm not rich enough to buy every year new 3D hardware ..
If there will be no new drivers i will have to stop this very expensive hobby ...

screw NVIDIA !!!
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Post by yuriythebest »

it's nice to see such interviews, however it did not say anything we didn't already know. What annoyed me about this interview is how andrew fear is how evasive he was with the issue of shutterglasses + crt's

however this line did shed some light:
Right now our glasses support the new ViewSonic® pure 120 Hz LCDs, Mitsubishi® 3D DLP® HDTVs, generic Texas Instruments checkerboard pattern 3D, and analog CRTs that support at least 100 Hz refresh rate.
so if you buy their glasses (unknown cost) you get free drivers for CRT's and other solutions. Theoretically this should mean that projectors are also supported since (some) use interlaced. not sure about polarized projectors though.

Damo3000- he probably just said 100hz since that is the 'recommended' amount. I doubt there will be a mechanism in place specifically to prevent 85hz projectors.


in any case this is actually good news since now you get choices with shuttrglasses!

choice 1: olskool shutterglasses like edims/xforce/etc + iz3d driver

choice 2: nvidia shutterglasses + free nvidia drivers

the 2 unknowns though are the cost of the nvidia glasses and the iz3d shutter output. Once those 2 are known it will be possible to see which one is cheaper and buy that. Could be very close- for instance if the iz3d drivers are 50$ you could get a pair of 10$ xforce glasses or the 70$ edims, and if the nvidia drivers are reasonably priced at around 70-100$ you could just get those. Again this is just speculation- but I think both solutions will cost 100-150$ max. Then again you also have to get the CRT which is a different issue alltogether....


FR3D
- you are very luckyto be gaming in 3d for that long - I feel like I missed out on a lot of 3d. Oh and also having that uber smug feeling- back in 1999 playing hl1 in 2d alone was considered cool, in 3d I would have been king :)
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Post by nubie »

I can't do shutters due to refresh rate issues (pounding, pulsing headaches, and eyestrain).

I really wish they would try checkerboard polarized, or get with the DLP guys to bring the circular polarized color wheels into it.

It doesn't really seem like "forward" to be back where we were over a year ago. Shutters need to be fast enough that I don't even have to think about the refresh rate being an issue. DLP could support circular polarization and the glasses could be cheap, like $0.50 cheap.

I hope checkerboard circular polarization becomes standard for LCDs. The funny thing is that the Zalman combo could have been fixed, they could have done a bit of work and got text to appear properly in games, or at least not so shredded.

I am glad to see support, and the Mitsu 3D screens are great. But, I am still confused as all heck, what will the glasses cost? What is supported? Is it really so hard to get a proper brochure out for salesmen and reps so that they don't confuse us more.
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Post by chrisdfw »

Personally, I think that this was the most important interview to date that Neil has done. It is the type of communication with an industry giant that we have been building toward having. Great job Neil!

My concerns are:

1) Does this mean no future XP support for Nvidia Stereo 3d with or without their shutter glasses? (looks like this is the case)
2) Why is Nvidia abandoning support for all other forms of 3d such as Planar, HMD, and dual projectors because they don't support Nvidia "shutter glasses" but they are allowing their drivers to work with Zalman (which uses polarized glasses and not Nvidia shutter glasses)? Doesn't this contradict what he say about this not being a "licensing program"??? (personally, I think he dodged the real question to push his shutter glasses)

****
Quotes:

Neil: "Will you be charging S-3D display manufacturers for the ability to be compatible with your glasses? What about alternative displays? Zalman, Head Mounted Displays, Projectors, etc. Are they treated the same way? What about old school LCD Shutter Glasses & CRT monitors? Will the glasses have to be NVIDIA branded to work?"

Nvidia: "Our goal for display support is to enable as many displays as we can that support the new NVIDIA 3D glasses. As new displays come on the market that support high quality stereoscopic 3D, we will test them to make sure that they work with our 3D glasses and we’ll enable support in our software. We want to enable a large ecosystem with a large installed base of users, so this is not a licensing program for monitor makers to work with NVIDIA 3D glasses.

Right now our glasses support the new ViewSonic® pure 120 Hz LCDs, Mitsubishi® 3D DLP® HDTVs, generic Texas Instruments checkerboard pattern 3D, and analog CRTs that support at least 100 Hz refresh rate."
****


Personally, I hope IZ3d is able to create a universal 3d driver solution so we can abandon Nvidia. I am tired of the tight control Nvidia has in the way they restrict what their drivers will work on. I agree that the consumers need a turn-key easy stereo solution without the headaches we go through to get 3d to work, but there is room for both hard core 3d tweakers like us and the average consumers.
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Post by The_Doctor »

I think we can clearly assume that nvidia stereo driver for xp is dead. And I agree, he talks a little like a politician going around what is asked.
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Post by shonofear »

hmmmmm interesting fa sure.
Good to hear at least sumthing from NV but like others Im still skeptical myself about it all.

Does any 1 have an ETA on when and how much for the release of their glasses ??? Neil...

Cheers
waiting patiently......
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Post by chrisdfw »

nubie wrote:I can't do shutters due to refresh rate issues (pounding, pulsing headaches, and eyestrain).

I really wish they would try checkerboard polarized, or get with the DLP guys to bring the circular polarized color wheels into it.

It doesn't really seem like "forward" to be back where we were over a year ago. Shutters need to be fast enough that I don't even have to think about the refresh rate being an issue. DLP could support circular polarization and the glasses could be cheap, like $0.50 cheap.

I hope checkerboard circular polarization becomes standard for LCDs. The funny thing is that the Zalman combo could have been fixed, they could have done a bit of work and got text to appear properly in games, or at least not so shredded.

I am glad to see support, and the Mitsu 3D screens are great. But, I am still confused as all heck, what will the glasses cost? What is supported? Is it really so hard to get a proper brochure out for salesmen and reps so that they don't confuse us more.
There is a checkered polarized? The checkerboard that the Samsung and Mitsubishi DLP and Plasma TVs do is checkerboard with shutter glasses. One checkerboard image is displayed to one eye, then the shutter switches eyes, and then the alternate checkerboard squares are filled in with the image for the other eye.
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Post by Freke1 »

Great to read what Nvidia thinks.
I have enjoyed 3D every day for the last couple of years and it makes me happy :D :D :D
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Post by Damo3000 »

Man I really am psyched to build a top end system and get those Nvid shutters. And play some recent games. Feel like Ive been trapped in the stone age of 3D gaming for too long now (although Farcry, Half Life2 and such are soooo top notch in 3D, I still want some depth of field, shaders and whatever Post Processing will work (if it does). So many new games to try that havent worked for me. (Mass Effect, Assassins Creed, GRID, DirT, + many more)

But perhaps Im getting ahead of myself....

HURRY UP NVIDIA!
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Post by Neil »

You can Digg it here:

http://digg.com/gaming_news/Official_NV ... _3D_Gaming

Regards,
Neil
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Post by RAGEdemon »

I wonder what kind of timeline we are talking about here. How soon can we expect to walk into a mainstream store to pickup nVidia shutter glasses, go home, plug them in, and everything just works.

I think XP support is indeed being dropped. A daft move, as hardly any gamer uses Vista.

It seems to be a giant leap forward, but i think if it is Vista only and there are restrictions on the driver to limit it to nVidias shutter glasses only, then the leap will be out of the frying pan and straight into the proverbial fire.

I think iZ3D are still our best bet for a universal Stereo3D driver.
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Post by Tril »

Logically the glasses should come out at the same time as the Viewsonic 120 Hz monitor and I've heard that the monitor is supposed to come out this year but with no set release date. We'll see.
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Post by LawnDart »

I was told at nVision to start looking for the product in the fall. I know what I want for Christmas! Guess what I'll be doing the whole Christmas break? LOL

Personally I think it is a great move for all of us. In order for our beloved S-3D to go mainstream it HAS to be simple to install and use. Out of the box, install a driver and bam, it works. My Mom (God love her) needs to be able to install a pair of glasses and not have problems. I know that's a "slight" overstatement but you get my meaning.

It can't be a bunch of geeks (I'm included) on a website trying to figure out why something won't work and end up dissapointed. Or slapping something together with duct tape and bailing wire. I've got no problem sitting around with a pyramid shaped tin foil hat on my head (another slight overstatement) but s-3D will never take off that way.
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Post by LawnDart »

Sorry for the blathering, I'm just excited. :)
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Post by jumbo_spaceman »

This sounds incredibly promising. :shock: :o :D They starved us until we were ravenous and now the juicy nuggets come flopping out (with as of yet unknown price tags). This is about as big as it could be simply because Nvidia is committing to hardware production for S3D. :!:
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Post by jumbo_spaceman »

BTW, does anybody have any info on the price for these Viewsonic 120HZ LCDs? I haven't been able to find anything.
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Post by Damo3000 »

"They starved us until we were ravenous and now the juicy nuggets come flopping out"

I laughed out loud (at work) when I read this. Its funny and true! I wonder if these forums will be a ghost town when these glasses "just work". Haha, I dont think so!

D3
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Post by RAGEdemon »

I have been thinking...

"...and we’ll enable support in our software"

I think this means the Glasses/dongle will have a DVI connectory only, and only monitors "enabled" like the Zalman, will be able to display Stereo3D - the ones which are actively detected and identified through the DVI port.

Of course, this means that projectors, HMDs, CRT monitors, or anything else using the old VGA port will not or ever be supported under what they are proposing.

Notice how the interviewee stays clear of mentioning HMDs etc even though they are specifically mentioned in the question.

I hope I'm wrong, but looking at the model they are using with the Zalman monitor etc, this thing is going to be a compatibility nightmare, only this time, it's going to be hardware instead of software.
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Post by Damo3000 »

Im being hopeful and wish to disagree.

Our goal for display support is to enable as many displays as we can that support the new NVIDIA 3D glasses.

We want to enable a large ecosystem with a large installed base of users, so this is not a licensing program for monitor makers to work with NVIDIA 3D glasses.

"I think this means the Glasses/dongle will have a DVI connectory only". Well I just use a DVI to VGA converter for my Projector, but I do see your point because if its "software enabled" that very well could mean displays need to be detected and approved by the driver. Which wouldnt be nice for a whole lot of us.

I think Nvidia knows that there are so many of us out there that have different display types, and I hope they are kind enough to offer some backwards compatibilty (I mean how hard can it be! - Just an "on or off" for them really, no?)

Anyways, Im not as tech proficient as you RageDemon, but I really hope your wrong on this one. But the interviewee really does dodge around some very specific points...

D3
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Post by RAGEdemon »

"...but I really hope your wrong on this one"

Me too mate, me too...
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Post by genetic »

Damo3000 wrote:Im being hopeful and wish to disagree.

Our goal for display support is to enable as many displays as we can that support the new NVIDIA 3D glasses.

D3
my Z800 HMD wont support Nvidia 3D glasses.

I also like how the "goal" is to support as many displays as they can. It almost sounds like they are trying to help us.....

That is of course, until we remember that just 2 years ago the "display" that you had was a complete non issue.
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Post by Damo3000 »

Yeah your right Genetic, I never thought of that (Im a shutter-head). Well I kind of read that as not just enabling displays to work with their glasses, but also supporting various types of setups like before. What is just ridiculous about this whole situation is that there is simply nothing in the way of these drivers working for every single previously working setup that everyone here has. Or is it more complicated than that?

Nvidia can go crazy marketing their glasses and 'suggesting displays', as long as there is a control panel that lets us select various stereo output like before with no pop up message that says "Your Display is not supported - Please go to our website for more information on how you can enjoy stereo3D for only $999.99! ". I dont want to sound like a Nvidia basher here, but i truly was burned over my 8800GTX and Vista/Zalman deal. Mind you I should have done the research beforehand. Perhaps the day of their redemption draws near.

Anyways, fingers crossed for everyone here that has spent lots of money to enjoy stereo3D (or spent little). I personally can say Ive spent easily over 4000 (proj, edim, hi output emitter, 8800GTX (useless), new PC, Vista). Now that I think of it, this is madness. Pure, awesome stereo3D madness (at least on my XP/7900GT box for now). :P My wife hates it! LOL

I really hope your z800 is up and running soon. In fact, I hope to soon come to these forums discussing just how awesome some new games are looking in 3D instead of fretting about an unsure future.
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Post by koshien »

I was thinking.... playstation 3's RSX is made by nvidia.... there have been so many rumours about a game console getting in the stereo-3D gaming... I'm waiting the end of the year, there should be some updates.
This is what I'm waiting for (my pc is pretty old, but I have a ps3):
- ps3 firmware update by Tdvision (for both movies and gaming?), as announced by them in an interview
- support by nvidia, for what concerns console gaming too
- rumours about 160 GB ps3 having 2 hdmi outputs (and this would explain the iz3D monitor support TDVision was talking about in the ps3 interview...even though ps3 already has 2 video outputs...)
This is what got me disappointed:
- S-3D bluray Hanna Montana just uses old anaglyph red-blue method...
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Post by da_giz »

Our goal for display support is to enable as many displays as we can that support the new NVIDIA 3D glasses.
For me that is the key phrase of the whole interview.
Some are happy about that phrase but I am deeply disappointed:

For me that means they will only support 3D with their own glasses, if your monitor works with them then you're fine.
But if you use another system like HMD, iZ3D or polarized projectors then you have no support.
Using their glasses they need only ONE output, so yeah sure it will work in SLI.

What I had hoped for was DUAL output on SLI, that would have been something!
But NO nvidia will let you play only in 3D if you buy their fancy shutters.... and hey guess what! They will try to make it work with your LCD monitor! :shock: If not, just buy a new one... :roll:

Nvidia, please open those damn outputs on your cards in SLI!
Why is it that we have 4 hardware outputs when running 2 cards in SLI when we can use only 1 !?

I always had Nvidia cards, but right now I'm so thinking of buying an ATI, they have at least don't block those outputs...
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Post by chrisdfw »

da_giz wrote:
Our goal for display support is to enable as many displays as we can that support the new NVIDIA 3D glasses.
For me that is the key phrase of the whole interview.
Some are happy about that phrase but I am deeply disappointed:

For me that means they will only support 3D with their own glasses, if your monitor works with them then you're fine.
But if you use another system like HMD, iZ3D or polarized projectors then you have no support.
What I don't understand, is if they are only supporting displays that can use their shutter glasses and they aren't making partnership deals with display manufacturers, then why is the first display that they support the Zalman display that uses polarized glasses???
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Post by nubie »

The last two posts got me thinking. He didn't say anything about proper 3D modes (flicker free, full display per eye, passive glasses.)

I get the feeling that they are spoon-feeding us slightly tweaked technology from the Vectrex era and calling it "the future of 3D gaming".

http://images.google.com/images?q=vectrex%203d

I don't think that we deserve to have our intelligence belittled in this fashion. If they want to move forward they should be at a minimum of 150hz (for 75hz per eye), or investigate useful tech like POLARIZED DLP WHEELS for use with passive glasses. To reiterate, 60hz makes me physically sick, if they can't provide any better than it isn't a "solution".

Never mind that an HMD would be so wonderful, although the FPS people would bitch at anything less than 2460x1600 on an apparent 36" screen, they think that "real gamers" can't achieve immersion without nose prints on double-dozen inch and up screens.

On a positive note, if these glasses are inexpensive, and can function with real drivers (I guess from iZ3D if nVidia won't properly support shaders), then it might be a good thing.

I am hoping that they are using a super high contrast LCD, the kind that has only been in $400-600 shutterglasses for theater viewing until now. That should fix the ghosting and keep the colors from being muted.

If it will sync reliably up to 150hz or beyond, and displays will go at those refresh rates, then it might be a barely passable solution. I am worried about the eyestrain involved with the flicker though.
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Post by jumbo_spaceman »

It would be nice to hear from someone who has tried the glasses at the NVision '08 event and who has had prior experience with stereo 3d using shutters and other methods. I want to know just how different they are from the ones that have been around for ages.
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staticbuddha
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Post by staticbuddha »

A few images I found on the net which some may h
ave not seen :)

Image

Image

Image
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Damo3000
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Post by Damo3000 »

You can go from the computer to the beach without changing glasses! HAHA, who wants to go to the beach when you can just load up Farcry. :D
jumbo_spaceman
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Post by jumbo_spaceman »

OOO :o looking pretty neat. Wonder how much those monitors will cost.
LawnDart
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Post by LawnDart »

The words is that they will cost slightly more than a standard 22" 1680x1050 LCD.

I thought about some other solutions but decided to wait for this puppy.
nubie
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Post by nubie »

Shouldn't any 120hz monitor (or DLP Projector) work? The real news is the glasses and the support(?) I think.

I look forward to "real" information, not a dancing around the question of what they don't support. (Frankly if they were honest then I would feel better, obfuscation of your product is not a business model. I really want hardware released so that there are hard facts. If shutters work then I am all for it as a tech, tough to evaluate without a product.)
quadrophoeniX
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Post by quadrophoeniX »

RAGEdemon wrote:I think this means the Glasses/dongle will have a DVI connectory only...Of course, this means that projectors, HMDs, CRT monitors, or anything else using the old VGA port will not or ever be supported under what they are proposing.
May I dare to disagree, since as we know by now the dongle is an USB one. Also he staed support for "CRTs that have more than 100Hz" Now CRTs only have VGA ins and they all support over 100Hz at some resolution at least. So my 2 cents on this is: there is native support over VGA, S3D will 'maybe' only launch only when actual refresh rate is above 100Hz - you know the old test picture that displayed resolution and refreshrate in use so they actually can detect and dis/enable support..

So much about VGA, DVI is another story though, where they actually have control which exact display is hooked up to the GFX card. And here I strongly believe we have to rely on which displays will be enabled and which not. Which is a pity and I don't see the point - I want to have control myself whether 30 Hz per eye make me throw up or not ;-)

So generally speaking 'every' display should be able to work even multiple monitors (I am still wondering how they synchronize the USB dongle with the video output, but apparently it works...).

SLI with multiple monitors however is again a complete different task again and the issues do have nothing to do with S3D. SLI takes both GPUs, splits the incoming signal, does dual processing and then sends the secondary signal to the primary card where they cue up for output. I would asume they use 2 framebuffers for that task and it's very hard to estimate whether the hardware could allow for splitting up the picture for 2 leave alone more monitors - with or without S3D. If multimonitor support uses those very same framebuffers per output it will never come. If it can be done S3D shouldn't be a problem. But they have had SLI now for so long and never mentioned SLI and multimonitor support together, which somehow tells me it's not possible with their SLI marchitecture.
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Damo3000
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Post by Damo3000 »

Man I hope my projector (85hz) will work, I will be soooo angry if it doesnt! Sorry but i cant afford a DepthQ. Are there any projectors that do 120hz that are reasonably priced?
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