Mercury Vapor Arc Lamp upgrade of IZ3D to improve crosstalk

[martinlandau]

These guys specifically single out Neurok - IZ3D flourescent backlighting as inferior to mercury vapor arc lamps, can anyone think of a reason besides warranty voiding why upgrading our iz3d's with these mercury vapor arc lamps is not a good idea?

http://www.crsltd.com/catalog/nuvision/details.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Details
The Perceiva 3D Stereoscopic Display consists of the following major components:

Optical
A high intensity, high pressure, mercury vapor arc lamp used as a point light source (user field replaceable).
Optics system to convert the lamp energy into a highly collimated source of light impinging on the rear surface of the dual stacked, LCD sandwich.
A perfectly aligned pair of LCDs (H, V and rotation); the first one for color & intensity control, the second for polarization control.
An AR hard-coated front surface diffuser to spread the collimated light equally at all angles to enable viewing at extremely wide angles, > 160 degrees.
A pair of passive polarized viewing glasses matched to the display for proper viewing of the stereo image pair.
Video
An OEM VGA_DVI-D video input board with BNC stereo frame sync input.
A proprietary video processing board for: (1) buffering the left-right stereo frames at 60 Hz, (2) detecting stereo frame sync, (3) calculating & storing of the dynamic sub-pixel look up table and (4) providing the output video stream & polarization data to the LCD stack.


Perceiva Display Technical Approach
The Perceiva display is similar to any conventional LCD monitor but consists of (1) a rear projection TV type of light source and optics to provide highly collimated light, (2) two matched LCD panels precisely bonded together, (3) a proprietary video processing computer and (4) a diffuser/AR glass viewing screen.

Most LCDs currently use a variety of diffuse light sources such as fluorescent for example. However, this type of light will produce low stereo performance due to multiple adjacent pixel cross-talk (Neurok’s iZ3D display for example) along with other drawbacks. The Perceiva uses a highly collimated light source similar to a conventional rear projection display as described next.

The Perceiva display assembly comprises a series of optical elements as noted further above in the “Optical” section. From back to front, we have: a point light source, several mirrors and lens system to provide a source of highly collimated light, a polarized filter, the first LCD panel, a second polarized filter at 90 degrees to the first one, the second LCD panel, a thin sheet of quarter wave retarder, a diffuser laminated to an AR glass plate and finally, for proper viewing, a pair of polarized glasses matched to the system.

Contrary to other polarized stereoscopic systems that use only two angles of polarization, one for each eye, the Perceiva technology generates polarization at the proper angle for each and every sub-pixel of the display. With this feature, it is possible to decompose a stereo-pixel (left/right) into a pixel-intensity controlled by the first LCD panel and a pixel-angle of polarization controlled by the second LCD panel. The polarizer filters of the glasses will decompose the complex intensity-angle pixel back to left/right pixel information creating a nice stereo image with very little crosstalk. Elliptical polarization is used to optimize the stereo performance using conventional twisted nematic (TN) LCD technology which rotates the light prior to entering the quarter wave retarder. The passive polarized glasses are also “elliptical” to properly decode the light output from the display.

The Perceiva DSD190 has been engineered to provide the best possible stereo performance for each eye with the following features: very wide viewing angle in all directions, excellent color fidelity, low weight, small footprint, single video input to avoid extra video cards or outputs and easy plug-and-play set up.
A version with dual DVI-I and dual VGA inputs is planned for availability in early Q1 2008. This will enable users to be able to update the computer stored stereo data at 60 Hz per frame as well as provide a means of inputting real time video stereo through a camera interface system provided by the user.

[martinlandau]

OK Yuri, get those work tools out and get ready to hack that IZ3D (if you don't care about your warranty!), here is some info where some guys decide to upgrade thier flourescent light of an LCD to LED. They were doing it for LCD projection, but we can do it for an IZ3D to get rid of all that ghosting you hate from all that noncollimated light.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/sho ... p?t=206771" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The guy below has many large pictures so you understand what is going on.
http://www.keithwakeham.com/lcd.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So what is better for getting a highly collimated light on our IZ3D to help reduce that ghosting? The mercury vapor arc lamp or some LED modifications as above?

The first link has lots of links to various companies for certain products, but they talked a lot about this company:

http://www.display-optics.com/pdf/RCF90 ... arch08.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[cybereality]

can anyone think of a reason besides warranty voiding why upgrading our iz3d's with these mercury vapor arc lamps is not a good idea?

Cause you're probably going to fry a $400 piece of equipment to maybe get a better result. I would highly discourage anyone from trying this, there's not even any guarantee that it would fix the ghosting issues (assuming you didn't kill the monitor in the process). Might as well wait for the new iz3d glasses to come out. Although if any iz3d engineers are reading this thread maybe it can give them some ideas for a future model.

[yuriythebest]

interesting stuff! I suck at DIY stuff so no thanks would be interesting to hear BlackQ's or Welders opinion about this

[martinlandau]

Cause you're probably going to fry a $400 piece of equipment to maybe get a better result.

If you walk out your front door, a rock may fall out of the sky and split your skull as well, life is risky like that! You think a better result is questionable, but the makers of that other monitor specifically say the flourescent lighting in the nuerok iz3d monitor is the problem and a highly collimated light source will greatly help with the ghosting, why do you think they are wrong? Do you have any facts that it won't help? It makes sense, scattered light and collimated light should have different effects on crosstalk no? If someone were to do this modification, and it could be done cheaply, and it seriously reduced crosstalk, would you be so negative against the idea? I do not understand all this negativity. Where is your sense of adventure?

[yuriythebest]

Cause you're probably going to fry a $400 piece of equipment to maybe get a better result.

If you walk out your front door, a rock may fall out of the sky and split your skull as well, life is risky like that! You think a better result is questionable, but the makers of that other monitor specifically say the flourescent lighting in the nuerok iz3d monitor is the problem and a highly collimated light source will greatly help with the ghosting, why do you think they are wrong? Do you have any facts that it won't help? It makes sense, scattered light and collimated light should have different effects on crosstalk no? If someone were to do this modification, and it could be done cheaply, and it seriously reduced crosstalk, would you be so negative against the idea? I do not understand all this negativity. Where is your sense of adventure?

I appreciate all your advice greatly and it will be very interesting to see the results of such an experiment. I do not yet posses the technical prestidigitation necessary to accomplish such a feat. I do not doubt that their technique reduces ghosting- if there were a foolproof way to upgrade an iz3d this way that'd rule.

[cybereality]

If someone were to do this modification, and it could be done cheaply, and it seriously reduced crosstalk, would you be so negative against the idea? I do not understand all this negativity. Where is your sense of adventure?

Thats great. So why don't you get an iz3d monitor and give this a shot yourself. Let me know how that goes.

[martinlandau]

If someone were to do this modification, and it could be done cheaply, and it seriously reduced crosstalk, would you be so negative against the idea? I do not understand all this negativity. Where is your sense of adventure?

Thats great. So why don't you get an iz3d monitor and give this a shot yourself. Let me know how that goes.

I thought you knew Cyber, I do have an iz3d monitor already. You think I spent all this time on ghosting reduction for an iz3d to turn up this info just for fun? LOL! I will do this, that was the whole point for tracking down all this info. First I need to discover where to find a high pressure mercury arc lamp like in the original link for cheap, also need to learn more of this optic system they talk about. Perhaps a high pressure mercury arc lamp and the optics are not necessary for all the highly collimated light, that is what the other link shows, a guy putting LEDS in his LCD monitor and stripping out the broken flourescent light source.

[cybereality]

I'm sorry man. I'm not trying to be a prick, I'm just skeptical this would even work. I am not a hardware guy (I'm a software programmer), so I'd have no idea where to even start with this mod. But my gut feeling tells me its more complex then just opening the monitor up and replacing a light bulb. The original link speaks of optics and mirrors which could be either expensive or very difficult to align by hand. Plus do you have any idea how this collimated light could effect the polarization of the displays? That, I don't know. But it seems like a whole lot of trouble, not to mention risk, without even knowing if it would fix anything. For all that you could just buy a Zalman and be done with it.

[martinlandau]

I'm sorry man. I'm not trying to be a prick, I'm just skeptical this would even work. I am not a hardware guy (I'm a software programmer), so I'd have no idea where to even start with this mod. But my gut feeling tells me its more complex then just opening the monitor up and replacing a light bulb. The original link speaks of optics and mirrors which could be either expensive or very difficult to align by hand. Plus do you have any idea how this collimated light could effect the polarization of the displays? That, I don't know. But it seems like a whole lot of trouble, not to mention risk, without even knowing if it would fix anything. For all that you could just buy a Zalman and be done with it.

Cyber you are right, I am abandoning all hope, your negative pessissm has tread on my dreams and stomped those suckers flat. I bow to your reason and logic. I can't even imagine why the wright brothers wanted to build a flying machine, I am sure one of your ancestors was standing around telling those idiots that if man was meant to fly, he would evolve wings Besides a hot air ballon was being sold right down the block from kitty hawk that let you go up in the air too - so why go through the trouble?

Yes buy a zalman, so I can get half the resolution, yes that makes perfect sense, what an idiot I am not to think how great half the resolution is! (snicker)

I don't understand those fools I saw at infocomm, hyundai and JVC with s3d LCD tv's - when we can all just buy a zalman!

I went to the sony booth at infocomm, I said where is all your s3d projectors, sharp, viewsonic, and many others have some s3d projectors coming out, and the sony rep must have been related to you - or maybe it was you cyber - He said that s3d stuff is a gimmick, a fad that he didn't see taking off, and as far as he knew sony had nothing in the pipeline for s3d projection in the future, but maybe some of the SXRD stuff could be converted (sigh)

Who am I to disagree with Sony? No, I think I will box up my iz3d and sell it on ebay and be happy that I am riding the wave of the future with the visionaries at Sony. That dumb james cameron, spending all that money on s3d avatar movie, Sony could have set that fool straight, hell Yuri just posted where the guy who made Transformers 2 said how stupid and wasteful s3d was. These are industry titans, I don't want to disagree with them. What a fool believes - wasn't there a song with that title?

Take us out Doobie Brothers :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj6PdoZaqCI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQludA7w-Bo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or the much rarer George Michael - what a fool believes

[cybereality]

Jesus man, don't go dying on me. I just said it was unlikely, not impossible.

Heres something to cheer you up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martinlandau]

Jesus man, don't go dying on me. I just said it was unlikely, not impossible.

Heres something to cheer you up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

22 million and counting! He even has some polarized sunglasses on, way ahead of his time. Said his career died because he refused to fly anymore, didn't want to be like the big bopper and la bamba valenz. The year he stopped flying was the year I stopped flying too, and my career suffered just like his We are still alive though, no fly by wire AI controlled airplane gonna kill us. I guess not enough people played system shock or portal, never turn your trust completely over to a computer - NEVER - dumb airbus engineers!!

[sharky]

a good reason not to do this? easy.. the new glasses fix it already and they are soon beeing shipped to all iz3d owners.. and its free..

[BlackShark]

Hey guys, did you look at the picture of that monitor ?


Collimated light did you say ?
I don't think the lamp makes much of a difference.
Ghosting is due to the accuracy of the LC adjustments and the quality of the filters. (new algorithms, screen calibration and better glasses). The backlight doesn't make any difference in terms of ghosting.

[martinlandau]

Sharky, you have been misinformed, the ghosting is helped by the new glasses according to yuri and others, but not eliminated. This similar thread over at iz3d forums on thier website goes into more detail about what needs to happen to reduce crosstalk completely.

Hey guys, did you look at the picture of that monitor ?


Collimated light did you say ?
I don't think the lamp makes much of a difference.
Ghosting is due to the accuracy of the LC adjustments and the quality of the filters. (new algorithms, screen calibration and better glasses). The backlight doesn't make any difference in terms of ghosting.

Blackshark, yes the monitor is thicker, it has to be to contain the optics needed to make the lightsource better - more collimated - IZ3D admits as much here:

http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=1394" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The lamp scattering the light does indeed make a difference.

[sharky]

i know that the problem isnt elimitated totally ith the glasses.. i have them myself.. at the other hand not even my 5000$ passive projection setup has zero ghosting.. but since i tested them i assure you that the new glasses put iz3d in a position where you just cant say anyhing for that money. what i mean is that right now, iz3d is worth the money.. i think the cost is just right.. after the upgrade its worth every isngle cent.. (in my op... obviously..)

[WheatstoneHolmes]

but since i tested them i assure you that the new glasses put iz3d in a position where you just cant say anyhing for that money.

I have no ghosting (well maybe a tiny, tiny, tiny bit if you tilt your head a little) on my DIY planar setup, but I don't have 22 inch LCDs either so you are probably right, I don't think I could buy two 22 inch LCD, build a stand for them and pay the $50 for the IZ3D drivers before I had gone above the cost of an IZ3D monitor.

[martinlandau]

i know that the problem isnt elimitated totally ith the glasses.. i have them myself.. at the other hand not even my 5000$ passive projection setup has zero ghosting.. but since i tested them i assure you that the new glasses put iz3d in a position where you just cant say anyhing for that money. what i mean is that right now, iz3d is worth the money.. i think the cost is just right.. after the upgrade its worth every isngle cent.. (in my op... obviously..)

Sharky, I want IZ3D to succeed, I own one myself and have recommended them to many others. However, I saw many practically ghosting free passive polarized solutions at infocomm, and if IZ3D does not improve on thier product, I am fearful for them that some competitors will steal all their marketshare. I would sacrifice resolution to get lower crosstalk. I would pay muich higher prices than the current iz3d price to eliminate crosstalk. Also I would not mind a larger monitor frame if it improved crosstalk, my desk has enough space to go from a 1 inch thick monitor to several inches think to accomodate the optics necessary.

They can't wait until hyudai or JVC or whoever has many S3D LCD tv's/monitors out to then decide to upgrade thier engineering, I think it will be too late then. If you want Iz3D to succeed as I do, try to make them understand, the clock is ticking and time is running out. The iz3d people did talk about a new color filter perhaps in thier next model, so maybe we all will be pleasantly surprised with a new iz3d product in the near future.

Wheatstone, the space required for your planar setup is larger than the space required for the monitor in the original link no? Which do you think would be less cumbersome?

[WheatstoneHolmes]

Agreed.

My setup requires 20 inches(50.8 cm) width - 18 inches (45.72 cm) depth - almost 20 inches height