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 Will 3D Porn increase rape and sex crimes? 
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Petrif-Eyed
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Neil wrote:
That's a generalization, Yuriy.

I think this is treading into that "no politics" category for MTBS.

Regards,
Neil

hi Neil! what generalization specifically are you referring to?
well, this entire thread sort of treads there since removing porn is a highly political thing to do. Yup this thread isn't heading anywhere good I concur better lock it down.

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Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:11 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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yuriythebest wrote:
well, this entire thread sort of treads there since removing porn is a highly political thing to do. Yup this thread isn't heading anywhere good I concur better lock it down.


No, censorship wont be necessary, this thread is quite on topic. Also, no one suggested censorship, so that cheap manipulative tactic will have to be worked on if you want to infer a consensus where there is none.


You want to debate? Then I will paraphrase the discussion:

-The initial arguement was "Does/will/can 3d porn increase rape and sex crimes".

-The consensus of this site as a pro-3d advocacy site was that it does not.

-I countered that it does on the grounds that this topic is subject to the same pro-censorship arguements used to censor the possesion of child porn, and while the production thereof places them in different classes, for the purpose of this arguement they are both media that involves abuse with the possibility of encouraging said behavior in the viewer, and therefore within the context of a censorship debate, they are one and the same.

-You countered that while you dont advocate the production and viewing of child porn, you dont feel that viewing it, or any other media, causes the viewer to desire to emulate it.

-I countered that you should explain why you are against possessing child porn but dont see any fault in viewing it. I then reitereated my initial arguement, emphasizing that you can't be both for and against censorship just because you like one media and not another, because the arguements you use against one media you dont like can be used against one that you do.

-You reiterated your previous arguement, that there is no cause and effect between viewing of media and acting said media out.

-Having failed to answer my question, i rephrased, that if you dont see any problem with viewing said media, then what is your objection to the possession of child porn?

-You answered that viewing media that is illegal makes someone a danger because they are knowingly breaking the law

-And here is my counter, if someone who is against 3d porn (or any media you may like) finds a way to use the arguements made against child porn against 3d porn, and thereby makes it illegal, and you, not finding fault in the act of viewing 3d porn, acquire it anyways, are you therefore a danger? Or would you willingly give up your right to something that you are for simply because someone has convinced your peers that some part of you is a risk to them?

My arguement stands, if you are for the possession of any media that someone else might find fault in, then you are for the possession of child porn.


Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:39 pm
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They should just arrest everyone that has ever played Counter-Strike, because clearly they will become a terrorist.

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Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:14 pm
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Petrif-Eyed
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Okay this wasn't directed specifically towards me but I'll answer

Quote:
-The initial arguement was "Does/will/can 3d porn increase rape and sex crimes".



http://www.impactlab.com/2008/01/06/int ... e-of-rape/

http://www.slate.com/id/2152487/

http://www.slate.com/id/2152487/

a google search for "pornography decreases rape" yields many more results. However of course if you were to google "pornography causes rape" you'll also find results, but think of it this way- only a hungry person would steal bread, same applies for sex.


Quote:
-The consensus of this site as a pro-3d advocacy site was that it does not.

the offender in question has to be retty f-ed up to begin with. As posted above, "playing counterstrike doesn't mean you'll go out and bomb stuff"

Quote:
-I countered that it does on the grounds that this topic is subject to the same pro-censorship arguements used to censor the possesion of child porn, and while the production thereof places them in different classes, for the purpose of this arguement they are both media that involves abuse with the possibility of encouraging said behavior in the viewer, and therefore within the context of a censorship debate, they are one and the same.

18+ porn is not abuse, child porn is. Some may give the "oh, even 18+ pornstars are brainwashed and are being taken advantage of". How? they are being taken advantage by having an awesome job and also being given huge chunks of cash? in that case by all means "take advantage" of me :)

Quote:
-You countered that while you dont advocate the production and viewing of child porn, you dont feel that viewing it, or any other media, causes the viewer to desire to emulate it.

I personally didn't make this point so won't weigh in here.


Quote:
-I countered that you should explain why you are against possessing child porn but dont see any fault in viewing it. I then reitereated my initial arguement, emphasizing that you can't be both for and against censorship just because you like one media and not another, because the arguements you use against one media you dont like can be used against one that you do.

Atm I'm personally against both since both still need abuse (even if you just ate a cheesburger you still played a part in slaughtering a cow). However, if my time spent watching Law&Order:SVU has taught me anything is that in the future when CGI is perfected then potential child molesters should be encouraged to watch that instead.

Quote:
-You reiterated your previous arguement, that there is no cause and effect between viewing of media and acting said media out.

I saw some WW2 footage earlier, however I am still not in the mood for mass-slaughter.

Quote:
-You answered that viewing media that is illegal makes someone a danger because they are knowingly breaking the law

Yeah this doesn't make sense. "the law" is not a universal guide to morality, rather it's stuff some silly politicians voted in - sure there are some good laws, then again there are some silly, nonsensical, or even harmful laws. I guess everyone on the internet is a "danger" because you'll be hard pressed to find someone who didn't downloaded something pirated at one point or another.

Quote:
-And here is my counter, if someone who is against 3d porn (or any media you may like) finds a way to use the arguements made against child porn against 3d porn, and thereby makes it illegal, and you, not finding fault in the act of viewing 3d porn, acquire it anyways, are you therefore a danger? Or would you willingly give up your right to something that you are for simply because someone has convinced your peers that some part of you is a risk to them?

Very good point and ties in with my reply above. Nope I'd never give it up lol just use extra security.

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Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:15 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Those who seek to posses illegal porn (child porn) more then likely already have bad intentions in mind. The child porn didn't put those ideas in there heads. The same argument can be used for legal porn. Those who already have the ideas in there head are the ones who will take it to the next level of something illegal like rape. The porn weather it's 3D or 2D will not turn people into rapists.


Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:47 pm
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foop wrote:
-You countered that while you dont advocate the production and viewing of child porn, you dont feel that viewing it, or any other media, causes the viewer to desire to emulate it.


Sorry but either you don't understand my argument or most likely you just alter what I am saying to suit your counter argument. The point I was trying to make is that you have no idea if viewing certain material will cause a person to act a certain way. I offered you the chance to prove your opinion with statistics. Either way MTBS shouldn't be a soapbox for these people. This is not a 3d related argument as I have seen no comparison between 3d material and 2d material but just a sounding off of opinions with no evidence supporting them. Please close this thread.

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Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:26 pm
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One Eyed Hopeful

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My mistake, it seems i mistook your (vreeks) post to be a part of brain grenades posts, my point still remains. This is a debate of rehetoric, not proof. Your counterarguement of uncertainty is used when one doesnt have an valid defense and seeks to derail a conversation so neither wins. You still havent addressed the question, so for now it will be assumed that you have no idea why you feel that its wrong and yet doesnt carry any harm, and as such surrender. And attempting a call for censorship, as i called yuri out for, is the cheapest tactic to stifling debate, used when an opponent knows he has lost.

Quote:
Those who seek to posses illegal porn (child porn) more then likely already have bad intentions in mind. The child porn didn't put those ideas in there heads. The same argument can be used for legal porn. Those who already have the ideas in there head are the ones who will take it to the next level of something illegal like rape. The porn weather it's 3D or 2D will not turn people into rapists.


Good counterarguement. So the point that intention premeditates action, as is the case with any action, is valid in its own right, but steers away from the arguements used against objectionable media, that it encourages and fosters undesirable behavior, however pre-existing, within the viewer, and should be banned as a discouragement. How would you counter this notion without supporting the possession of child porn, or support it without countering the possession of 3d porn?


Quote:
18+ porn is not abuse, child porn is. Some may give the "oh, even 18+ pornstars are brainwashed and are being taken advantage of". How? they are being taken advantage by having an awesome job and also being given huge chunks of cash? in that case by all means "take advantage" of me :)


Legal porn is does not involve abuse? Have you watched whats currently being produced lately? If a girl isnt being humiliated, used, and thrown away, then it doesnt sell. Would you want such a scene to happen to a loved one, even with their consent? Or are you inferring that just because one consents to an action, that action cannot be considered abuse? And how would you feel if someone was encouraged by some legal porn depicting simulated rape and decides to pick your loved one as their target? I'd imagine it wouldnt take long for you to switch sides. If you feel the extreme tendencies of legal porn doesnt constitute abuse, and yet albeit "normal sex" with a child does, then there's really nothing to discuss.

That aside, we would be straying off topic if we made this debate to be about whats right or wrong, when its about how you intend to defend whats right, and attack whats wrong, when both are subject to the same rules. I have yet to hear a valid counterarguement that would allow one to do so.


Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:04 pm
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Petrif-Eyed
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foop wrote:

Legal porn is does not involve abuse? Have you watched whats currently being produced lately? If a girl isnt being humiliated, used, and thrown away, then it doesnt sell. Would you want such a scene to happen to a loved one, even with their consent? Or are you inferring that just because one consents to an action, that action cannot be considered abuse? And how would you feel if someone was encouraged by some legal porn depicting simulated rape and decides to pick your loved one as their target? I'd imagine it wouldnt take long for you to switch sides. If you feel the extreme tendencies of legal porn doesnt constitute abuse, and yet albeit "normal sex" with a child does, then there's really nothing to discuss.

That aside, we would be straying off topic if we made this debate to be about whats right or wrong, when its about how you intend to defend whats right, and attack whats wrong, when both are subject to the same rules. I have yet to hear a valid counterarguement that would allow one to do so.


counterargument huh? ok :) plenty of those, indeed in youtube form. in fact, how about some people that can express it even better than I can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2jrsHELc-E

this video, and the original video to which it is a response beautifully convey my point (though some parts of it are specifically about feminism so that's a tad are related generally it's about whether porn is good/bad for women and society). Also, you mistook my calls to close this thread as a sign of weakness - big mistake :)

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Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:20 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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Or you could write your thoughts in plaintext. Im sure if the gentlemen you linked to had done so he might have made a stronger case.

Quote:
If you feel the extreme tendencies of legal porn doesnt constitute abuse, and yet albeit "normal sex" with a child does, then there's really nothing to discuss.


This is my point regarding our positions. Its not that I don't want to debate with you based upon your opinion, its that there is no feasible way to argue the merits of censorship if both parties dont have an equal ground to argue upon. It would be no different than if i felt sex with children wasn't abusive and you did; how could you argue that censorship of child porn was validated with a person who saw no fault in it?

However if you wish to disregard this issue, then my point remains, even if you dont feel that legal porn is often abusive, how do you intend to defend it against someone who finds fault with it? Proof? You would author studies and collect mountains of evidence to be poured over while the other sides readies their own comparable dung heap of "proof"? All in the hopes that you may convince some judge that you are right, all the while missing the bigger picture that if you had objected to censorship in the first place then you would not have to be on guard the rest of your life to defend your right to view said materials every time someone decides to make a career out of taking them away.

If enforcing your view of right and wrong upon the world means that much to you, then you deserve no less. Otherwise to those who are still willing to take a stand in this debate, I ask you, how do you intend on defending whats right and attacking whats wrong, without degrading into the vain attempt of proving an opinion, when both are subject to the same rules?


Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:55 am
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One Eyed Hopeful

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I was going to make my first post about my 3D home theater setup but I opted to chime in on this thread. Has anyone posting in this discussion (including the OP) actually read a single study published in a reputable medical journal regarding the link between pornography and violence?

If so, did you CAREFULLY examine the study? For example, did you contact the research institution the author(s) conducted the study through and ask for compliance documentation requisite of human study and experimentation (APA, CIOMS, National Commission, etc)? Have you scrutinized the materials and methods used for any potential error? Did you review the entire process of selection for experimental and control groups? Did you attempt to take all the data and statistical information provided in the study and check for consistency? Were significant figures used uniformly throughout all metrics and calculations? Did you conduct a comparative analysis of this study versus a cross section of other, similar studies? Did you check every reference cited by the author(s) for integrity, accuracy, and precision?

I could honestly fill an entire page (single spaced, 10 point font, 1 inch margins) with questions for all of you who just blindly accept a scientific study (unethical behavior in scientific studies is abound, MIT or the individual who falsified the link between MMR vaccination and autism). So please do not make sweeping statements like “viewing porn decreases rape” when you likely did not even carefully examine a study purporting such a link.

And for the record, sex in humans does not follow economic theory – supply and demand are NOT linked. Just because an individual has access to all the violet and perverse pornography in 3D they want does not mean their deviant impulses will be assuaged to the point they will not seek out something more. That is like saying because I have access to all the porn in the world, I will no longer act upon my desire to have sex with my lover. Come on people, think logically! If I am into raptophilia, no amount of simulated rape in this world (no matter how real) is going to stop me from committing the act. Just think about it… What is better, having sex with oneself or with others? I will take sex with women over watching a porn ANY DAY! -- And I do, my fiancé loves me for that.

Since you all seem to be big fans of goog, type in normalization of deviance – which is a scientifically supported phenomenon that essentially proves the idiomatic axiom: give them an inch and they’ll take a mile. If you like to watch a certain sex act, you would probably like to do that very thing if given the chance – otherwise, why do you derive pleasure from seeing the act in the first place? So if you enjoy watch rape, bestiality, or pedophilia you will most likely enjoy engaging in those activities yourself - why spectate when you can participate, right?

While I am quite certain that viewing “tasteful” pornography would at worst lead to increases in infidelity and promiscuity (not saying that it does), I am not so hopeful when it comes to the other “hardcore” content that exists in this world. Anyone ever see a woman with epiglottitis caused by repeated blunt trauma from violent fellatio? I have come across it TWICE in 2010 – it happens, and it is quite serious (life-threatening). Do you know how many millions of dollars are spent each year repairing anal tissue not only because of the objects inserted but also the violence with which some individuals insert said objects?
My bottom line here might be different from the OP. I do not think 3D porn will increase the risk for violence at all. I think the risk for violence (as assisted with pornography) is already here and it varies according to the content that is available, its proliferation, and the intent of the viewer.

Sorry for the tangent, but let me reiterate what has already been said. If you watch and enjoy pornography involving anything in the next paragraph, you are deviant from the norm (that is why science calls them paraphilia). I dare anyone who is into vorarephilia to sit down and tell their doctor, the response might be committal to a mental health facility for fear of your own safety. If you get sexually aroused by something, you are likely to commit that sexual act.

You like to watch softcore porn. You like to watch hardcore porn. You get aroused when a woman gags during fellatio. You get aroused when large objects are inserted into various orifices. You get aroused when a man chokes a woman during sex. You get aroused by autoerotic asphyxiation (if you never heard of it, you likely would never try it, and if you never tried it then you never risked dying from it). You get aroused with bondage. You get aroused by urolagnia (paraphilas), coprophilia, emetophilia, erotophonophilia, masochism, mysophilia, necrophilia, vorarephilia. You get aroused with bestiality. You get aroused with rape (biastophilia). You get aroused with child pornography.

Saying or reading these things aloud in a public place might be a good indicator as to whether or not those sexual acts are normal (science already says they are not as they are paraphilia). And to the poster who said billions watch porn: 1) provide me a source for that statistic 2) if billions watch porn, why is it still taboo? 3) if billions watch pornography, why is it considered a paraphilia?


Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:11 am
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Petrif-Eyed
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Nice post thetruth! however some remarks

Quote:
You like to watch softcore porn. You like to watch hardcore porn. You get aroused when a woman gags during fellatio. You get aroused when large objects are inserted into various orifices. You get aroused when a man chokes a woman during sex. You get aroused by autoerotic asphyxiation (if you never heard of it, you likely would never try it, and if you never tried it then you never risked dying from it). You get aroused with bondage. You get aroused by urolagnia (paraphilas), coprophilia, emetophilia, erotophonophilia, masochism, mysophilia, necrophilia, vorarephilia. You get aroused with bestiality. You get aroused with rape (biastophilia). You get aroused with child pornography.


I did not know many of the terms so I had to look em up. I think it's a very devious trick you did here - in a single sentence you linked people who watch "regular" porn with all sorts of things, ending with criminal acts.

Quote:
so, did you CAREFULLY examine the study? For example, did you contact the research institution the author(s) conducted the study through and ask for compliance documentation requisite of human study and experimentation (APA, CIOMS, National Commission, etc)? Have you scrutinized the materials and methods used for any potential error? Did you review the entire process of selection for experimental and control groups? Did you attempt to take all the data and statistical information provided in the study and check for consistency? Were significant figures used uniformly throughout all metrics and calculations? Did you conduct a comparative analysis of this study versus a cross section of other, similar studies? Did you check every reference cited by the author(s) for integrity, accuracy, and precision?


No sir I did not, neither did I scrutinize the evidence for evolution and carbon-date each individual fossil with my own equipment


Quote:
And for the record, sex in humans does not follow economic theory – supply and demand are NOT linked. Just because an individual has access to all the violet and perverse pornography in 3D they want does not mean their deviant impulses will be assuaged to the point they will not seek out something more. That is like saying because I have access to all the porn in the world, I will no longer act upon my desire to have sex with my lover. Come on people, think logically! If I am into raptophilia, no amount of simulated rape in this world (no matter how real) is going to stop me from committing the act. Just think about it… What is better, having sex with oneself or with others? I will take sex with women over watching a porn ANY DAY! -- And I do, my fiancé loves me for that.


I'd prefer a fiance who would accept me for who I am regardless of my beliefs.


Quote:
Sorry for the tangent, but let me reiterate what has already been said. If you watch and enjoy pornography involving anything in the next paragraph, you are deviant from the norm (that is why science calls them paraphilia). I dare anyone who is into vorarephilia to sit down and tell their doctor, the response might be committal to a mental health facility for fear of your own safety. If you get sexually aroused by something, you are likely to commit that sexual act.

**after a few mins on google**
Nice, very classy - you again use a psychological technique here- you take something that's unacceptable to society in general "Vorarephilia is the interest/sexual fetish in which a person fantasizes about eating another person and/or creature, being eaten him/herself, and/or watching another be eaten" and you Link it with pornography in general and people who watch porn. What's implied here is as misleading as saying "all homosexuals are child molesters". You should be ashamed if you did this on purpose, and if you were indoctrinated into this way of thinking, which I think you were in one way or another then I wish that perhaps, maybe some day, you will realize, more and more and more, that perhaps there is a different way of looking at things, a better way, where you can see yourself for who you truly are.


Quote:
Saying or reading these things aloud in a public place might be a good indicator as to whether or not those sexual acts are normal (science already says they are not as they are paraphilia). And to the poster who said billions watch porn: 1) provide me a source for that statistic 2) if billions watch porn, why is it still taboo? 3) if billions watch pornography, why is it considered a paraphilia

If I go out in public and say "Wooorld!! I go to the loo and take a large dump every morning!" I'd get the same reaction. Does this mean no one goes to the toilet also?

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Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:49 am
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Ok. This thread really has no place in being here. MTBS is supposed to be a G rated forum where possible, and this has little to do with S-3D gaming or to benefit the stereoscopic 3D industry. I should not have let it continue this long.

We have "no politics" rules in the forum for good reason, and if you all wish to continue this conversation, you are welcome to via PM.

Regards,
Neil

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