Viewsonic V3D241wm-LED for ATI/iZ3D available in the UK

[DmitryKo]

One more of the new bunch of 24" full-HD sterepscopic displays has been officially announced in August 2010, just a few weeks short of missing the projected Q2 2010 availability date as shown on CES2010.

The display uses CMO (Chi Mei Optoelectronics) display panel and shutter glasses, so this is not Nvidia 3D Vision display; the drivers come from iZ3D (1.10 at the moment).

It has a dual-link DVI-D and a USB Type-B (Device to Host) "3D shutter glasses" connector, but no standard VESA 3-pin conector. The 3D glasses kit is included with the display. As far as I could understand from the wiring diagrams, there is no computer-display USB connection, so the sync should be coming through DVI-D (which is good for latency) and there is no built-in wireless emitter.
The picture at iZ3D.com shows wired glasses BTW; hopefully a wireless option will be available as well.

http://www.viewsoniceurope.com/uk/produ ... 1wmled.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.iz3d.com/viewsonic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Old threads:
iZ3D Shutter Glasses Support...Possibly!
Viewsonic going LED. Will develop 3D LED

[tritosine5G]

So, is this edge lit, therefore constant backlight(?), or the brightness intensity bump deal Toshiba wants to employ ?

I read recently that colorfilters eat away 70% of brightness of LCD's.

http://displayblog.wordpress.com/2006/0 ... l-ocb-lcd/

[cybereality]

Cool. Yet another dent in Nvidia's stereoscopic stranglehold.

[DmitryKo]

the brightness intensity bump deal Toshiba wants to employ

Toshiba cites a 3.3 ms pixel response time, this is not enough for sequential color at 120 Hz.

I read recently that colorfilters eat away 70% of brightness of LCD's

Who cares, LED backlit monitors like this one produce brightness of 300 nit (cd/m2) while power consumption is reduced to 35 W. I don't need any more brightness or any less power consumption, because 1) my eye are starting to ache at full brightness so I have to reduce it below 50% on every monitor I use, and 2) my CPU/GPU/RAM consumes an order of magnitude more than that (300-350 W at full load), so the overall decrease will only be marginal.

[tritosine5G]

Im talkin about those new TV's

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 344#p50344" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What we're particularly excited about is what CEVO does in prepping 3D for display, adjusting the brightness and colors to compensate for the dimming effect of the 3D glasses. The necessary headroom is provided by 3,000+ LEDs that backlight the 55LZ1 LCD display.

can't do this with edge-lit, therefore calling an edge lit monitor "LED" is missing the point when it comes to 3d.

With shutterglasses running like this to mask LCD defects , you sure need that brightness. When I tried 2233rz, it was horribly dark for my taste, gave up after 30 min. Remember , these are not LR , LR, LR, but LB,RB,LB,RB.... not 50% brightness is lost, a LOT more:


1.5 ms equals good old CRT hold time .............

Toshiba LED bump stuff: (...) but when the shutter glasses are on we found the picture as close to "regular" 2D brightness as we've ever seen with 3D.

-and I found silverscreen material for ~ 40GBP / 100" today

[DmitryKo]

can't do this with edge-lit

3000 LEDs are impressive, however a 55" LCD TV has about six times the visible area of a 23.6" monitor. I'd imagine this Viewsonic display should max out brightness in stereo 3D mode, just like 3D Vision monitors do; and iZ3D drivers can compensate for decreased brightness in stereo mode.
Then again, 300-400 cd/m2 LCD monitors are too bright for me and I tend to decrease brightness in 2D mode below 50%.

calling an edge lit monitor "LED" is missing the point when it comes to 3d

No, since it does have a LED backlight unit.

[tritosine5G]

Much more is lost than 50% . And with hold time that short , its more prone to flicker, while 3d DLP has longer hold time than 2d plasma for example.

I dont see how is this better than the current crop of CCFL stuff.

[DmitryKo]

Much more is lost than 50%... DLP has longer hold time

What is your suggestion, using a 60" 3D DLP TV as a computer monitor?

I dont see how is this better than the current crop of CCFL stuff.

Reduced power consumption, that's all (besides these meaningless "dynamic contrast" figures measured with backlight fully off).

[tritosine5G]

-even 1280*720 DLP is crisp enough , you should try it

I'd rather build rear projection myself cause that checkerboard pattern thing seems unacceptable.

Talking about unacceptable, 1.5ms hold time with decimated brightness , well , rings the scam bell in my ears (in fact the 2233rz is still ringing in my ears).

[kamigawa]

Just one quick question: do you think this monitor will eventually work with nVidia's 3d Vision? I had already heard about iZ3D and ATI, but I always thought they meant those two solutions would also be available.
I've waited for months to get this monitor (I was lucky enough to notice the VG236H's lack of speakers and green tint problem before buying it), and it would be a shame if it didn't work with nVidia's glasses and drivers.

[skrubol]

Why can't these brightness tricks be done with edge-lit LED panels? They're still LED's, they can still be adjusted it brightness without changing color rendition, and if they're using RGB LED's (rather than white phosphor LED's,) they can still adjust color balance. Only thing I would think they can't do is the dynamic contrast stuff where part of the display is lit brighter than another part.

Any word on support for other 120Hz displays?

[DmitryKo]

-even 1280*720 DLP is crisp enough , you should try it ... I'd rather build rear projection myself

I need a computer monitor on my desk, and I will definitely try this monitor once it's out; hopefully it won't be as awful as the current crop of LCD TVs.

Even if I wanted to completely change the layout of my room and go with big-screen projection, Mitshubishi America is the only DLP TV manufacturer left and they do not sell outside the US, and front projection setup will be too complicated in my small flat.

Just one quick question: do you think this monitor will eventually work with nVidia's 3d Vision?

No, this is not a 3D Vision monitor. Anyone who wants to claim 3D Vision compatibility has to enter a "certification" programm and pay a licensing fee to Nvidia, and only specific displays and projectors are supported.
ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Why can't these brightness tricks be done with edge-lit LED panels?

Exactly.

Any word on support for other 120Hz displays?

iZ3D also supports a 24" MSI Wind Top all-in-one.
http://www.iz3d.com/shutter3d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tritosine5G]

Looks like some german ppl became tired of *** err ghosting so you can buy 110V Mits with adapter there, even the Laservue.
http://www.vidimensio.eu/web/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I beleive this compensation thing is local dimming exclusive, with edge lit I think it'd result in excessive bleedthru, seriously degrading IQ (contrast 100:1? ) ?

[kamigawa]

Just one quick question: do you think this monitor will eventually work with nVidia's 3d Vision?

No, this is not a 3D Vision monitor. Anyone who wants to claim 3D Vision compatibility has to enter a "certification" programm and pay a licensing fee to Nvidia, and only specific displays and projectors are supported.
ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Thanks for your quick reply.
That's quite saddening, though. Well, time to begin another search for a 3d Vision monitor that isn't plagues by problems and whatnot.

[DmitryKo]

with edge lit I think it'd result in excessive bleedthru

AFAIK, bleedthrough at edges is a defect mostly associated with heat up of the LCD matrix caused by CCFL backlight, as the lamps are actually placed at the edge in many models.

Computer monitor tests show that backlight diffusers work quite effertively and LED edge backlight has the same or better uniformity as CCFL backlight.

[Dom]

Actually alls thats needed is a 3d driver ghosting meter built into the api that will distinguish the areas that are ghoting and adjust the contrast and brightness or ingame settings to account for a clear image. Might sound complicated but is easier than you guys might think. Most games out now don't have realistic enough lighting effect anywhere and when your in 3d your trying to reproduce a real life enviroment we need a clear image no matter if the game is 3d ready cause they still ghost. Also since lcd's are so popular and eveyone thinks they are slow and whatnot, giving a better gray to gray response time would be a waste of time and money when ALLS thats needed is a software enhancment!

[skrubol]

Actually alls thats needed is a 3d driver ghosting meter built into the api that will distinguish the areas that are ghoting and adjust the contrast and brightness or ingame settings to account for a clear image. Might sound complicated but is easier than you guys might think. Most games out now don't have realistic enough lighting effect anywhere and when your in 3d your trying to reproduce a real life enviroment we need a clear image no matter if the game is 3d ready cause they still ghost. Also since lcd's are so popular and eveyone thinks they are slow and whatnot, giving a better gray to gray response time would be a waste of time and money when ALLS thats needed is a software enhancment!

So basically limiting the contrast of the output is the fix for ghosting on LCD's? I dunno, seems like quite a compromise to me. I'm not too familiar with the fixes people use on LCD's though. Definitely seems like fixing the problem with faster response panels is better than working around it by limiting scene dynamics though.
It may be a decent interim patch until we can get better panels.

[tritosine5G]

Hahahaha, not only contrast, they disable "overdrive" in the service menu . This is also considered as a "fix". Crazy.

The second type of motion blur results from the slow response of the LCD.Ideally, when switched, a pixel should reach its target value instantly. In reality, however, the pixel takes a certain amount of time to switch (up to several cycles for older LCDs).This response is illustrated in Fig. 3.

Improving the slow-response motion blur is commonly achieved through overdrive, demonstrated in Fig. 4.� The idea is to apply a larger driving value so that the target value is reached by the end of the frame.

http://scien.stanford.edu/pages/labsite ... legers.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Definitely seems like fixing the problem with faster response panels is better than working around it by limiting scene dynamics though.

Toshiba definately won't give you OCB LCD's for a while, and we wont really get SED, DLP, OLED either.

This tech can't get any cheaper. ....And colorfilters can be blamed for the "washed out poop" look, as well as eating useful light away.

[weazer2k]

Just one quick question: do you think this monitor will eventually work with nVidia's 3d Vision?

No, this is not a 3D Vision monitor. Anyone who wants to claim 3D Vision compatibility has to enter a "certification" programm and pay a licensing fee to Nvidia, and only specific displays and projectors are supported.
ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

What? It won't be compatible with nVidia's 3D vision? I thought all it takes for 3D Vision was a true 120Hz LCD monitor?? Isn't this a 120Hz display?

So it should work with the 3D Vision starter kit right? All we would need is the emitter to sync the frames with the glasses. The drivers would just output a 120Hz video stream which is independent from whatever display you use, as long as it can understand and output a true 120Hz signal...

It probably won't get a nVidia certified logo, and will ship with IZ3D glasses. I don't care about not being able to use the stock IZ3D glasses which would come with the monitor. I'll just get a 3D Vision starter kit... unless someone can convince me that IZ3D is superior to 3D Vision... I hope I'm not wrong with the compatibility issue. I really like that monitor.

[Dom]

The Nvidia 3d Vision drivers will only connect to a known monitor like CRT monitor, 3d ready monitors, their 3d ready projectors, 3d discover ect.. If they don't support this monitor you may be able to try the .inf switcheroo , by placing a known monitors .inf file driver to the display like this viewsonic display. They been doing this with projectors with success but noone has mentioned it about lcd monitors.

[skrubol]

I thought all it takes for 3D Vision was a true 120Hz LCD monitor?? Isn't this a 120Hz display?

So it should work with the 3D Vision starter kit right? All we would need is the emitter to sync the frames with the glasses. The drivers would just output a 120Hz video stream which is independent from whatever display you use, as long as it can understand and output a true 120Hz signal...

It probably won't get a nVidia certified logo, and will ship with IZ3D glasses. I don't care about not being able to use the stock IZ3D glasses which would come with the monitor. I'll just get a 3D Vision starter kit... unless someone can convince me that IZ3D is superior to 3D Vision... I hope I'm not wrong with the compatibility issue. I really like that monitor.

You also need nVidia's blessing. Without that the best you can hope to do is use 'generic CRT' or whatever as your output device, and the timing on CRT's is quite a bit different than LCD's, so ghosting will most likely be terrible.

I believe there is some value in having some certification to be able to do 3dvision, as small timing differences can make a big difference (I get zero ghosting with my DLP projector, once I got 3d vision set up right,) but not having a 'generic 120Hz LCD' option (as well as generic DLP) is stupid to me.

[weazer2k]

Oh, I see... I didn't know nVidia purposely locks out unknown monitors ;-(

If you could go with a generic profile, I guess it would be nice if you could hook up genlock with the monitor and the emitter in order to perfectly sync the frames.

[skrubol]

I'm not sure genlock would help, as that still doesn't guarantee the processing in the monitor won't delay the video. The delays shouldn't vary over time for the same monitor, so manual delays would be fine.

[tritosine5G]

Local dimming can be performed with any type of LED-LCD (edge or direct) because of the diffuser or light guide. In the case of edge-lit LED-LCD if only one edge LED is activated and all others are turned off there is a predictable spread of light into the diffuser (light guide). The advantage is there is a lot less vertical crosstalk with edge local dimming. The disadvantage of course is the zones must be large (no fine control)

humm!!! Now the question stays, how far they push it? Still I wouldnt expect extra brightness.

[DmitryKo]

Hahahaha, not only contrast, they disable "overdrive" in the service menu . This is also considered as a "fix". Crazy.

Who are "they"?

Stereoscopic monitors do disable overdrive, brightness and contrast menu items when in 120 Hz mode, because these parameters are automatically set to the maximum and should not be changed.

Still I wouldnt expect extra brightness.

Again, backlight diffusers are quite effective, I don't think maximum brightness is limited by the geometrical placement of light sources, but rather by the number of lights and their luminous intensity.

[ionone]

Just one quick question: do you think this monitor will eventually work with nVidia's 3d Vision?

No, this is not a 3D Vision monitor. Anyone who wants to claim 3D Vision compatibility has to enter a "certification" programm and pay a licensing fee to Nvidia, and only specific displays and projectors are supported.
ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Im sorry to contradict you but IMHO the screen will be compatible with Nvidia 3DVision. Why ?
1) You can see on this page that EVERY existing 120hz monitor is in the list. Why this new one wouldn't be ?
2) The previous 120Hz Viewsonic monitors are in the list. I dunno why they would stop making it "compatible" with 3DVision
3) 3DVision compatible monitor is just a 120Hz monitor. There is no info that goes through the DVI or HDMI cable to check if there is the 3DVision qualification. The signal is sent to 120Hz monitor so EVERY 120Hz monitor will work !

thanks for reading.

[kamigawa]

Well, on the other hand, we have the fact that this monitor is now officially certified for AMD ATI's HD3D.
Who knows what would happen if you tried to use 3D Vision on it.

I suppose we'll have to wait for some proper reviews, even though we won't probably read a word about it till the first weeks of November.

[BlackShark]

Just one quick question: do you think this monitor will eventually work with nVidia's 3d Vision?

No, this is not a 3D Vision monitor. Anyone who wants to claim 3D Vision compatibility has to enter a "certification" programm and pay a licensing fee to Nvidia, and only specific displays and projectors are supported.
ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Im sorry to contradict you but IMHO the screen will be compatible with Nvidia 3DVision. Why ?
1) You can see on this page that EVERY existing 120hz monitor is in the list. Why this new one wouldn't be ?
2) The previous 120Hz Viewsonic monitors are in the list. I dunno why they would stop making it "compatible" with 3DVision
3) 3DVision compatible monitor is just a 120Hz monitor. There is no info that goes through the DVI or HDMI cable to check if there is the 3DVision qualification. The signal is sent to 120Hz monitor so EVERY 120Hz monitor will work !

thanks for reading.

That is because every 120Hz LCD screen manufacturer paid their due to Nvidia to get Stereoscopic 3D support. Viewsonic projectors were not compatible straight away, they had to pay and wait a few months to get support. There are a lot of 120Hz DLP projectors which should be compatible with 3D vision and yet are not because nvidia does not care about adding them in the "authorized list" for free.
Even worse : last year, Optoma's HD66 projector which supports 120Hz input and was announced as 3D vision compatible, even Nvidia said they would be compatible but somehow they did not add support for them in their drivers, 6 months later Optoma and Nvidia made a deal and it was officially supported... but you had to buy the new model not the old one. (it the same projector there is absolutely no difference in the tech specs).

Nvidia does whatever it pleases with 3D vision, display manufacturers have to pay to get certified and support.
I just hope that with ATi supporting openly hdmi1.4 displays Nvidia will change it's pricing policy, but until then you probably won't see that display getting support from Nvidia unless they pay.

[tritosine5G]

don't forget there s also bulb guarantee for half , or 1 year, and ppl used it with spoofed EDID just fine.Hell im using acer536 with spoofed edid ever since.

[DmitryKo]

Im sorry to contradict you but IMHO the screen will be compatible with Nvidia 3DVision.

The fact is, 3D Vision drivers detect monitors and projectors by EDID and will only activate stereoscopic mode for very specific models. While all stereo monitors released so far were certified, there were multiple instances where 120 Hz DLP projectors did not properly work with Nvidia 3D Vision, even though these projectors had a menu item for switching between "DLP Link" and "3D Vision" modes, just because Nvidia did not add them to the exception list.

Viewsonic just followed Zalman and made a driver bundle deal with iZ3D for this particular monitor, abandoning 3D Vision drivers. To me, this is a clear indication that manufacturers are tired of Nvidia's licensing policies. I don't think that either Zalman or Viewsonic will return to 3D Vision certification as it exists now, simply because open approach is getting more popular with vendors. Recent evetns - like AMD's "Open Stereo 3D" initiative and recent iZ3D's decision to free 120 Hz monitor support from model-specific restrictions and change their licensing model to one-time payment for unlocking all outputs in the driver - should force Nvidia to either reconsider their licensing policies, or completely block 3rd party stereo "drivers" like iZ3D or DDD from running on their hardware (though the latter is unlikely).

[ionone]

ok i was wrong.

that's a shame, i was waiting for this monitor badly. i guess i'll have to look into the new LED BenQ then

[JohnPeterson]

I enjoy the technical discussion. Very insightful.

May I ask if anyone has seen any trace of this monitor since the Oct 14th press release http://www.techpowerup.com/132952/ViewS ... nitor.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;? Did it get stuck on the runway so to speak? Where is it? I haven't seen any sign that anyone has gotten a copy of this monitor yet.

[DmitryKo]

It has been confirmed that this model will come with wired shutter glasses; V3D242wm-LED will be the model with built-in wireless emitter which will require separate glasses pack.

http://mobile-review.com/articles/2010/viewsonic.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (in Russian)

[JohnPeterson]

It has been confirmed that this model will come with wired shutter glasses; V3D242wm-LED will be the model with built-in wireless emitter which will require separate glasses pack.

http://mobile-review.com/articles/2010/viewsonic.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (in Russian)

Thanks a lot for the info. It's the first time I've heard of the V3D242vm-LED. It will be painful to wait for it until next year though.

So to recap, if you want to use amd hd3d through dvi (not hdmi 1.4a) the V3D241vm-LED and the V3D242vm-LED are the only monitors announced so far that support that?

[DmitryKo]

So to recap, if you want to use amd hd3d through dvi (not hdmi 1.4a) the V3D241vm-LED and the V3D242vm-LED are the only monitors announced so far that support that?

Well, technically V3D242wm/243wm/267wm have not been officially announced yet, it was just a press preview of ViewSonic 2011 line-up; Viewsonic V3D241wm-LED is certianily the first HD3D monitor. However I'm pretty sure others like Asus, Acer, Samsung, LG etc. will follow soon, like they did with 3D Vision monitors; AMD HD6800 presentation hints Q1 2011 as general availability date.

[JohnPeterson]

The V3D241vm-LED is finally shipping. I'm eagerly awaiting the first test results and reviews.