Hands free locomotion demo

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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by JanVR »

I captured another in-game video today, hands free this time – see below. I taped an XBOX 360 controller to the gun to allow for shooting. In the coming week, I should have updated code ready that allows for swapping weapons and re-loading through hand gestures. I hope to make a fulsome demo with enemy encounters and real-time combat. The feeling of immersion when someone is shooting at you….

With regards to backward stepping: I tried it out some more this morning, and it works after some practice. Some of these advanced moves will require some short “getting-used-to”.

I like the upholstered cell idea, but it would be tough to eliminate the harness, as it provides subtle but indispensable support when walking. It’s tough to walk comfortably without it. Perhaps with some more practice…

The support ring will definitely be height adjustable. Similarly, the support belt assembly needs to and will provide for different waist sizes.

@ Bishop: nice sketch, and good concept of the lean pad. The issue with such a design is that you are tied to the inner radius of the ring. As such, whenever you want to turn around, you need to follow that exact turning radius, which feels constraint and unnatural (when you turn your body around, you are not really turning in a nice circle).

Thank you all for the feedback. I am happy to see any suggestions and ideas that anyone may have, so don’t hold back. The sharing of ideas, even if far-fetched at first, can only lead to more insight and better solutions. For a broad audience to accept VR products like the Rift and this locomotion device, they will have to be near perfect and easy to use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jQOWnsUkaI

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jQOWnsUkaI[/youtube]
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by alekki »

I'm so excited about this. It seems like the most promising project since Rift itself.

In what way are you going to eventually release it? As a complete product? DIY kit? Just instructions for people to build one themselves? Or is it so far in the future you're not even thinking about it yet? I sure hope we won't have to wait too long!
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by PalmerTech »

This looks very cool!

It might be worth trying it out with the rehabilitation harnesses I posted in the other thread, having the support point higher up could make for a more natural stride?
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Libertine »

Can anyone think of an easy-to-build system to allow the waist to go up and down easily?
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by twofoe »

PalmerTech wrote:This looks very cool!

It might be worth trying it out with the rehabilitation harnesses I posted in the other thread, having the support point higher up could make for a more natural stride?
I don't think the non-enthusiast crowd would go for something that has to hang from the ceiling, but it'd be cool if he built a self-contained, adjustable, overhead support bar. Would also be cool if the rope stretched enough to allow crouching.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by twofoe »

Libertine wrote:Can anyone think of an easy-to-build system to allow the waist to go up and down easily?
How do seatbelts work? Maybe it's possible to build something similar, which allows movement up and down until it's too sudden (you fell) and it catches you.

Or maybe have it give subtly increased resistance as you get lower, maybe by compressing air?
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by MSat »

JanVR wrote:
@ Bishop: nice sketch, and good concept of the lean pad. The issue with such a design is that you are tied to the inner radius of the ring. As such, whenever you want to turn around, you need to follow that exact turning radius, which feels constraint and unnatural (when you turn your body around, you are not really turning in a nice circle).

You could add an adjustable offset so that you can make the lean pad centered in the dish.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by JanVR »

MSat, I think you would still feel bound to a turning radius, since there will be some inertia (and constraint) of the connection between the lean pad and the ring. To turn freely 360 degrees on the spot, your waist can't be constraint to any circular pattern, because any single point on your waist does not naturally follow such a pattern.

@ PalmerTech: I like your rehabilitation harness idea. I am afraid, however, that it might make the whole assembly too large and too cumbersome for an average consumer to put together. Ideally, I am hoping to optimize my waist support assembly, as it could potentially be an elegant solution with the same fuctionality as an overhanging harness.

Regarding crouching: that is a tough equation to solve (within cost contraints). Even though the current set-up does not allow for physical crouching, the software I am developing allows for the crouching command by hunching. Not the exact same physical motion, but at least the same functionality. Happy to hear any other suggestions!
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by MrGreen »

Jan I can't find the preorder now button.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Zoide »

Great progress Jan! I think my question might have gotten lost amidst the other posts, but could you please explain a bit more how the grooves and pins work? How closely spaced are the grooves? Is it only one pin per shoe in order to allow them to rotate? If so, I suppose the pin would be in the forward half of each shoe? Is there some special arrangement in the center of the device to allow you to gain traction with one foot while stretching the other one out to take a step?

And just to bother you again with everybody's question: what's the ETA till we can get our hands on this? Any idea of how much it may cost?

Thanks :)
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by brantlew »

JanVR wrote:Regarding crouching: that is a tough equation to solve (within cost contraints). Even though the current set-up does not allow for physical crouching, the software I am developing allows for the crouching command by hunching. Not the exact same physical motion, but at least the same functionality. Happy to hear any other suggestions!
There are always compromises that have to be made with VR. I think if crouching had to be accomplished with a button it would not be a deal-breaker.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Linkage1992 »

Libertine wrote:Can anyone think of an easy-to-build system to allow the waist to go up and down easily?
You could use a pivot/spring system. Please excuse the horrendous drawing below:
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Leahy »

Linkage1992 wrote:
Libertine wrote:Can anyone think of an easy-to-build system to allow the waist to go up and down easily?
You could use a pivot/spring system. Please excuse the horrendous drawing below:
That sort of design could allow for some degree of height adjustment as well
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Leahy »

Amongst all these excellent questions and ideas maybe I missed it but I don't recall anyone asking how do you get in and out of that thing?
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by colocolo »

i made a quick 3d model of a stride support , i call it tail support, because it would be placed there where a tail might extrude and because it would be lightweighted - only 1 pound if you made it out of aluminum. i have calculated that.
The green torus symbolizes a waist support which would perfectly fit onto your waist, the blue knob a joint and
the coloured cylinders are pipes. The pipes would circulate around a rail and fit in one another.
So u would have plenty degrees of freedom.
But i think the joint had to be tough because you need to get the torque
onto your feet.(maybe you need an universal joint)
Although it seems rather complicated the additional costs would be very low.
At last, it allows crouching.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by STRZ »

How do you maintain low friction for walking, if the ring is also able to move downwards? How do you support your body?
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by colocolo »

actually i cant speak for it if it works, because i am not in possesion of a
virtuix device. it should be mainly an inspiration for JanVR and the others.

The rail is mounted to the platform, so that would give a little support.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by STRZ »

Sure, thing is that the whole walking principle only works by keeping weight off the ground. It could be possible to implement a mechanism locking the downward movement on the rail somehow only enabling it by a button or something. Then everytime you'd need ducking, you have to press the button at the same time to unlock the rail. But it would hurt if you forget about it :shock:

It wouldn't be enough for crouching due to the weight applied, but for ducking which is important in FPS shooters.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by colocolo »

ok understood. thought one have to reinforce the weight onto the platform for walking, some kind to have a pushing off force.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by EdZ »

JanVR wrote:Regarding crouching: that is a tough equation to solve (within cost contraints). Even though the current set-up does not allow for physical crouching, the software I am developing allows for the crouching command by hunching. Not the exact same physical motion, but at least the same functionality. Happy to hear any other suggestions!
Your current support appears to be two flat beams, fixed to the waist at the sides but free to move over the support ring, correct? By allowing these beams to flex significantly (possibly making them longer to prevent them slipping through the support ring) you can allow some degree of crouching while still providing support. Using some cheap strain gauges embedded into the beams would also allow varying degrees of crouch and lean to be measured directly.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by HarleyMills »

Have you tried or considered a similar setup with a ball instead of the concave surface? It seems like that would create a more natural feeling motion. A ball might have to be too big to accommodate a persons gait though.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by geekmaster »

HarleyMills wrote:Have you tried or considered a similar setup with a ball instead of the concave surface? It seems like that would create a more natural feeling motion. A ball might have to be too big to accommodate a persons gait though.
Research suggested that to prevent wrinkles in the top of the ball when it lays flat on the walk surface requires about 50 feet diameter, as I recall. No time to search for reference links right now, sorry.

With modern materials, perhaps a smaller ball could be used with a electrorestrictive surface to flatten in out electrically...

But it seems that robots these days have no problem walking on smaller balls:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI06lujiD7E[/youtube]

That video makes me curious if one or more of these (perhaps inverted) could be used in an ODT...

Here is a larger "walking ball" used at "circus school", which could be mounted on inverted swivel castors (or the more expensive holonomic wheels used in the robot above):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHnHNquGdtU[/youtube]

That takes significant training to master. Like the research said, 50 foot diameter is better, and the air pressure can be reduced somewhat to flatten the top walking surface. If it is deflated too far, the top surface becomes badly wrinkled.

This idea looks good in theory, but not so good in practice due to a lack of "miracle material" needed to construct it...
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Fredz »

geekmaster wrote:That video makes me curious if one or more of these (perhaps inverted) could be used in an ODT...
Very interesting links and video indeed ! Coupled with something like the CyberCarpet this could become a very nice solution for an omnidirectional walking simulator.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by geekmaster »

Fredz wrote:
geekmaster wrote:That video makes me curious if one or more of these (perhaps inverted) could be used in an ODT...
Very interesting links and video indeed ! Coupled with something like the CyberCarpet this could become a very nice solution for an omnidirectional walking simulator.
Perhaps motion sensor in the HMD could control the motors in the "inverted robot", which could control the large walking ball (in place of the orange basketball shown in the video). Your body would just be the perturbed load that the robot tries to keep balanced on the ball as you walk on it... Just food for thought...

Of course, it needs a safety net, or platform with floor level with the top of the ball, or perhaps a safety harness. With a motorized safety harness support, it could allow fast crouches, but prevent falls, by dynamically controlling harness support tension using HMD motion sensor data.

The downside is that it will not fit under a bed, like (future version of) the dish featured in this thread.

However, walking on a controlled rotating ball (of sufficient flatness on top) would be much more like natural walking than sliding your feet in a dish. Sadly, research suggests that the ball diameter needs to be about 50 feet to feel "natural".
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Fredz »

I saw something more like this :

Image

but with many inverted motor triplets - one under each ball - in place of their unidirectional treadmill.

In the same vein than the locomotion device in the Disclosure movie too :
Image
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by geekmaster »

Fredz wrote:I saw something more like this :
...
but with many inverted motor triplets - one under each ball - in place of their unidirectional treadmill.

In the same vein than the locomotion device in the Disclosure movie too :
...
Ping pong (table tennis) balls are probably not strong enough. Perhaps golf balls? I have a large bucket of golf balls (but I do not play golf). I may be worth using them for an ODT surface. Worth a try (when I get some time)...
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Fredz »

Thinking about it I'd say squash balls would fit nicely, they're made of rubber compound so the contacts with the motors would be frictionless. And since they're deformable it would be easier on the feet compared to golf ball and it would better simulate a flat ground.

The overall cost would be quite high though I'm afraid, considering the number of motors required. Maybe another solution would be possible with less motors, by placing two of them at each end of several rotating rods which would be placed under the balls.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Okta »

This threads getting a bit derailed. Might be best to take non locomotoin discussion to a more suitable thread where many ideas have been thrown around like http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13784
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by JanVR »

Thanks for al the ideas. Keep in mind that any moving or rotating parts rapidly increase the cost of a mechanical device. Also, rotating parts are the nightmare of any product designer, as they are the first to wear and defect...

@ Leahy: regarding getting in and out: the ring actually opens up via a hinged part. Still, the prototype is a bit cumbersome for entry/exit given its size, but that should be solved with a smaller and lower device. I think the platform size can be reduced to a radius of maximum 2 feet.

@ Zoide: each shoe only has 1 pin (can't have more, since that would prevent strafing as the platform grooves are converging).

Regarding ETA: it will take some time to prepare a commercial launch (thinking Kickstarter). The new prototype needs to be completed (I believe a smaller and better looking demo platform would be beneficial), 3D design renderings need to be made, and then there is the Kickstarter video production time, marketing etc. Some high profile endorsements, as Palmer had in the Rift video, might be helpful too.

Zoide, regarding your question about cost: not sure yet about manufacturing costs and perhaps most importantly, logistical costs (the device is quite large, even when shipping disassembled). I hope it can be brought to consumers for a price similar to the Rift price, but that might not be possible. Let me ask you: how much would you be willing to pay? :)
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by KBK »

think of the skin of a torus, like that of a 360 surround screen. Simulator types. (can't remember if those where privileged photos or not!)(don't see them on the net...) (this was 30 foot wide 360 toroidal simulators, 10x, that were wired together)

Slightly more of a half torus. basically the top and bottom inner lip curled in just a hair.

Now, make it about 4 feet across. maybe 1 foot high.

welded together, made of steel.

In the center crossmembers, place a platform, at the top level. spring loaded, if you wish, or some resiliency is deemed workable.

now you have the torus, with crossmembers and platform.

Skin it with mildly elastic material. Tough material.

An alternate visualization is a bagel shape, with a inner post and platform, then covered with a balloon, oiled on the inside, dry, clean, and frictive/grippy on the outside.

Clamp a larger device around it, all around. On the inner surface of this outer cover, is driven motorized wheels. all axis represented.

The inside of the torus and mildly elastic skin, is oiled, so it can move, over this inner steel cage which is smoothed for such use. the torus can be skinned with formed Teflon sheeting, and the platform surface, as well. Anything to keep the friction load down and the sensitivity up.

Hillcrest sensors on legs and kinect type or whatnot for recording motion. You decide. Provides the drive info for the motor system. This is a good place for that 1000hz unit. Human physical stability and motion simulation would be aided greatly by it's presence.

The motorized platform-torus system can also be on pistons, whatever is deemed best -tilt is provided for.

Add side support and default safety modes,and you have the open platform free motion package that you want.


Price is high but it is open and functional. in all ways that you want it to be. a human provides the balance and their motion provides the feedback required to induce motion in the skinned torus, with the person standing on the platform.

the motored drive wheels and the auxiliary wheels provide the support that keeps the skinned torus captured/driven. The axillary capture wheels are self rotating.

Some bugs to work out in the drive mechanism, but it is doable. A slightly larger version allows for dropping and rolling, crouching and so on. Theoretically, the larger the platform area, the better the skin works. There are some quite tough elastic materials out there, these days. It will have to be ultrasonically welded/glued, in-situ. At least you can work on both sides of the seam until the final closure. The seam will obviously be the weakest point. To stabilize a human, the tension will have to be high and stretch limited, is the guess.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by JanVR »

KBK, I think you just re-invented the following patent:

http://www.google.com/patents/US7399258 ... 58&f=false

Unfortunately, this does not work. I have experimented with this in the past; it is impossible to rotate a membrane 360 degrees over a donut-like shape, since you will end up with opposite forces on both sides of the donut that offset each other.

The patent office is loaded with dozens of patents for locomotion devices and omni-directional treadmills. The reason most of these do not exist in reality is because they do not work or are not commercially viable (mainly the latter).
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by colocolo »

Personally i think the price shouldnt be higher than 199 $. :woot
At first sight I dont see any costly parts.
But actual i dont know from what material its made off and what industrial expenditure and effort you have to put into it.
Maybe you can tell a bit more about the device and its innards.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Zoide »

colocolo has a good point. There are several competing factors when trying to find a fair price for Jan's device.

First of all: will this device be sold as close to cost as possible (e.g. Oculus Rift dev kit) in order to create a market and profit later? Or is this device *it* for his company, regardless of nurturing a market's growth?

As far as the intrinsic cost of the device, it *looks* like it will be low. The consumer version is likely to be smaller, and as far we know there will be no motors or electronic components. The prototype's quality looks fine, but I doubt that it's using sci-fi metamaterials ;)

Which leads us to *why* we are so excited about this. Arguably the real value is not in the grooved plastic dish or the shoes with pins. If you just take it at face value it's not rocket science. But somehow after decades of people trying to get omnidirectional devices right, no-one had come up with a way that is as simple yet effective. The WizDish comes to mind, but I consider them to be different enough as to not be direct competitors. So there is an intrinsic value in the invention itself. I'm sure it's taken Jan lots of thinking and prototyping to reach this stage.

How much should it cost, then? I really don't know :P Perhaps if Jan could tell us the cost of the parts we could give our estimates. I like the way the Oculus Rift has been developed and priced, with a lot of openness both in terms of the components used, their cost, and how they are manufactured.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by EdZ »

It's got to be solid enough for you to stomp around on it for several thousand hours (you wouldn't want it to fail after a few months' use). It's got to be accurately moulded enough for the registration pin to engage & disengage smoothly. It's large, so might not be moulded in one piece. It needs to be stiff enough not to flex, either the base nor the support. Plus, you need the tracking system.
Big, strong and heavy things are expensive to make and expensive to ship, not even including the electronics portion. Think of it as being comparable to a piece of exercise equipment.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Zoide »

EdZ wrote:It's got to be solid enough for you to stomp around on it for several thousand hours (you wouldn't want it to fail after a few months' use). It's got to be accurately moulded enough for the registration pin to engage & disengage smoothly. It's large, so might not be moulded in one piece. It needs to be stiff enough not to flex, either the base nor the support. Plus, you need the tracking system.
Big, strong and heavy things are expensive to make and expensive to ship, not even including the electronics portion. Think of it as being comparable to a piece of exercise equipment.
That's an interesting point of view, comparing it to an exercise machine. I don't think the tracking should be included though, as that would greatly add to the complexity and cost. I'd rather integrate it with my own tracker (off the shelf Kinect, Leap sensor, etc.).
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by ElMatarife »

JanVR wrote: Let me ask you: how much would you be willing to pay? :)
Whether or not it's a gaming toy or a sim device, it's ALSO a fitness machine. Don't charge too much more than a good treadmill and you won't have any problems selling them. I'd say $500-750 is perfect if that's a realistic price point. $1,000 is probably the breaking point where it becomes too expensive for mass adoption.

It also depends on the device lifespan. I'd imagine everyone who is buying the Rift dev kit is going to replace it after the consumer version comes out. That's fine, since $300 isn't really that bad in the scheme of things. It's not too much more than you'd pay for a nice monitor. With something this large, requiring some assembly and a steeper price, I assume people would want it to last 5 years of wear and tear, and would hate to get screwed if a better version came along a year later. You can probably ease their concerns by promising trade in upgrades or upgrade kits or by selling replacement parts.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Zoide »

ElMatarife wrote:
JanVR wrote:I'd say $500-750 is perfect if that's a realistic price point.
I think that's way too much :shock:

I know that the professional ODTs can be tens of thousands of dollars, but this would be a consumer peripheral with no moving parts or electronics, so it should be priced as such. I'm not expecting it to cost the ~$80 I estimate the WizDish will cost, but 10X of that and 3-4X the price of a Rift is certainly too much.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by KBK »

JanVR wrote:KBK, I think you just re-invented the following patent:

http://www.google.com/patents/US7399258 ... 58&f=false

Unfortunately, this does not work. I have experimented with this in the past; it is impossible to rotate a membrane 360 degrees over a donut-like shape, since you will end up with opposite forces on both sides of the donut that offset each other.

The patent office is loaded with dozens of patents for locomotion devices and omni-directional treadmills. The reason most of these do not exist in reality is because they do not work or are not commercially viable (mainly the latter).
this is why the drive locations where unspecified as to their positions, which would be top and bottom, and why the membrane was to be flexible. that the opposing forces need be dealt with regard to angular offsets. That many small drives may be required. That I figured that the drive forces would have to be where the binding issues are, which is where the user is located. The top outer edges. Required horsepower ranges, as a sum total, are probably in the 15-20hp range, divided among an approximate 10-12 drive/pull motors, arranged symmetrically. This provides a push and pull (fore and aft, no matter the orientation of user), at low angular offset to origin forces.

I thought it up and wrote it down in as little minutes as it took to type it out.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by KBK »

the problem being, of course, that one is trying to take the human body and draw it as an inside-out 3d hyperbolic opposite, that remains fully functional, as a willing and complementary dance partner.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by JanVR »

KBK, thanks for clarifying – seems like the above could indeed work with all motors working in harmony.

To Zoide's point, the idea is certainly to create a market first and get the device into as many hands as possible, so that novel VR applications can be developed (as with the Rift, there are not that many great applications readily available, besides appropriate games). The lower the price at which the device can be distributed, the better. Profits are not the focus.

That being said, to Edz point, the production costs associated with this device result from its large size. The tooling costs (costs to build molds) for the various parts will likely be high (much higher than for a small device such as the Rift), and so will be the shipping costs. Then there are the costs of the shoes and the waist support assembly. Definitely in favor of providing full clarity and transparency around costs, so I’ll share any data points I can gather. The device will likely not include any tracking sensors or electronics. Again, trying to keep costs down as much as possible. Hope to get the price closer to the price of a Rift as opposed to the price of an electronic treadmill.

I like the comparison with fitness equipment. I think this device could have interesting VR exercise applications.
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