Development thread (Grandfathered; OLD Vireio Structure)

The place for all discussion of the Oculus Rift compatible open source 3D drivers.
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Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDqWAmvCf0o

"We don't talk about Convergence."

Barristan6 is working on a new build that I'm hoping will answer your question!

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Re: Development thread

Post by Jademalo »

Baristan6 wrote:
Jademalo wrote:I really should stop trying to understand concepts like this until I have my rift, lol.
I've asked Neil the same questions and have come to the same conclusion.

-Riftless
Haha, good to know I'm not alone =p

The end of may cannot come quick enough :|

EDIT: Ah, fantastic! Looking forward to it =]
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

Hi Jademalo!

Check out the front page and updated guide. I'm hoping this will be helpful in your quest for the ultimate 3D convergence settings!

Regards,
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Re: Development thread

Post by cybereality »

Some things I noticed (on beta 11):

The eyes seem to be swapped on some games. I tried Mirror's Edge and HL2:Ep1 and both had swapped eyes.

The 3D hotkeys seemed really slow to work in HL2, and in Mirror's Edge they were basically too slow to see any difference at all. I know they were really fast before, but this is maybe too unresponsive.

Also, the main app did not seem to be saving the stereo/tracker mode after selecting it (when opening the app again it would default).

Otherwise looking good.
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Re: Development thread

Post by Jademalo »

Neil wrote:Hi Jademalo!

Check out the front page and updated guide. I'm hoping this will be helpful in your quest for the ultimate 3D convergence settings!

Regards,
Neil
Oh! It's just clicked. The table is trying to set the zero point, which is essentially the screen, so nothing is popping out at all, and everything is inside. As I understood from the flat monitors, changing the convergence changes that point, but since the table is something incredibly close to your face in a sense, using those settings gets it so that the edge of the table is in a sense where the physical screen is in the oculus.

Thank you! Also, that calibration tool is seriously nice.

Now that's out of the way, I am slightly curious on a deeper level - You said that convergence doesn't rotate the cameras. After having a good look at what convergence and separation do inside skyrim, I think I've discovered where I've been tripping over myself. I think I've had the two the wrong way around.
When adjusting convergence, the images seemed to simply move left or right relative to eachother, without changing the perspective at all. However, separation caused the image to rotate to keep the same game situation centralized.
This finally makes sense to me, and I explained it to myself with some pencils. I had my hands close together, and crossed the pencils at my fingertips. Moving my hands apart, the cross point moved further away. I always assumed this was what separation was doing, but it was in fact convergence!


My only question with separation now is why that gives the illusion of rotation in comparison to moving the character sideways - is that all to do with aim? I've had a look for a diagram but I've been struggling. I've been told rotation is a big no-no, and that would make sense since both cameras are wanting to point to infinity in parallel, but this is really confusing. They seem to be rotating away from the convergence point outwards...


Thanks so much for the patience with me, I seriously appreciate it because I've finally learned! Yay =]

EDIT: Wait, I think i've been misunderstanding separation! Do they rotate outwards rather than moving the physical in game cameras further apart?

EDIT2: Got it. I've had the image that my eyes are seeing mixed up this entire time. As separation is increased, my right eye is seeing more things on the left, and my left eye is seeing more things on the right. Convergence is the image position telling me the point where I need to point my eyes directly on the monitor. Even though as separation is increased the cameras are rotating, the images are physically on the screen so that the correct eye gets the correct image.
Gah, I can't believe that my whole problem was I had the two mixed up, but not what they did.

Thank god that's over! :D

EDIT3:(Just to get this clear in my head...)
With the OR, you adjust separation so that the ingame cameras are the same distance apart as your eyes. Standard 3D just increases the intensity. This turns the camera so that the convergence point is the same, but the camera distance is further apart in the virtual world.
Technically, your right eye is looking to the left at an image on the right, and your left eye is looking to the right at an image to the left. Convergence is the point where both of your eyes are physically looking at, where they meet. This is the physical screen. To have an image in front of the convergence point, your right eye has to be looking to the left at an image on the left, and your left eye is looking to the right at an image on the right. Since this is being projected on a flat surface, this is what is required of your eyes to trick your brain into thinking that the object is further forward than it actually is.
With the Rift, you want the convergence point (The screen in the virtual world) to be very close to your eyes, so that nothing has to be focused on in front of the screen, and everything is behind it. This means you don't attempt to cross your eyes. If anything, you want the convergence point to be where your head is in the virtual world, as this makes even the closest thing possible to the camera that little bit deeper, saving your eyes.

I may have made a model with blu tac and pencils, but I finally understand stereoscopics. =]
There's only one thing that I'm curious about now, but that will require my Rift. I want to know how convergence affects the IPD calculation of the separation. Since the images are being moved together to bring the convergence point closer, does that mess up the physical eye location in the game? (Since moving the cameras closer together without any rotation is how (I think) convergence works)
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Re: Development thread

Post by adoral84 »

Thanks for
Neil wrote: Check out the front page and updated guide. I'm hoping this will be helpful in your quest for the ultimate 3D convergence settings!
Execellent guide, I was able to get a much more natural feel after going through the vireio calibrations, I must've been way off. You probably just saved me from going permanently cross-eyed :)

I did have issues with beta 11 in HL2 where occasionally the video output would freeze (the game didn't, everything was still running). In some areas it never happens but in the trainstation at the beginning it was happening like 50% of the time. I'll check out earlier versions and see if I can at least find a point where it might've started.
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Re: Development thread

Post by lnrrgb »

adoral84 wrote:I did have issues with beta 11 in HL2 where occasionally the video output would freeze (the game didn't, everything was still running). In some areas it never happens but in the trainstation at the beginning it was happening like 50% of the time. I'll check out earlier versions and see if I can at least find a point where it might've started.

I experienced this too. I thought it was related to adjusting separation/convergence settings. I seemed to be able to avoid it by restarting everything, and not making adjustments upon restarting. I might not have played far enough into the game to see if it would eventually start freezing, even if I had not made adjustments.
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Re: Development thread

Post by drgroove101 »

There is a thread in the forum here about Anti-Chamber working with Vireio. The screens look good, any chance on getting a profile for this in beta13?
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Re: Development thread

Post by Mel »

Downloaded beta 12, and I still don't have F-key functionality in Dear Esther (haven't tried anything else).

Any suggestions?
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Re: Development thread

Post by yomer »

drgroove101 wrote:There is a thread in the forum here about Anti-Chamber working with Vireio. The screens look good, any chance on getting a profile for this in beta13?
I made the thread. You don't need a special profile. Just open profiles.xml and copy the profile line for UT3.exe into a new one and just substitute UT3.exe with the name of Antichamber's executable and you'll be ready to go. Also, you will have to change the parameters and configuration manually, because Antichamber doesn't let you use any of the Function Keys in-game.
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Re: Development thread

Post by drgroove101 »

yomer wrote:
drgroove101 wrote:There is a thread in the forum here about Anti-Chamber working with Vireio. The screens look good, any chance on getting a profile for this in beta13?
I made the thread. You don't need a special profile. Just open profiles.xml and copy the profile line for UT3.exe into a new one and just substitute UT3.exe with the name of Antichamber's executable and you'll be ready to go. Also, you will have to change the parameters and configuration manually, because Antichamber doesn't let you use any of the Function Keys in-game.
Right on!

Would be nice to get this added into the beta so future users don't have to look for specific posts to add support. Also would be good to add to the readme, if it works good, might as well add it in!
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Re: Development thread

Post by Guig2000 »

Hello,
I made a complete guide for convergence and separation guide 2.5 years ago, in French for a 3D site for a friend and hen I translated it into some kind of English and published it into iZ3D forums.
I never published it here because mtbs ever have his official guide.

It is not perfect at all, maybe useless sentences, lack of animation but maybe some people here could feel it useful.
My guide in english
Mon guide en Français


EDIT:
This guide was made for general stereoscopic driver, which are generally used with a monitor or a TV. The chapter about "window violation" has to be completely ignored in the case of the use with the oculus rift: as it fulfill entirely the field of view of the user, this issue cannot appear at all.
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Re: Development thread

Post by cybereality »

Separation and convergence in Vireio may not mean exactly the same thing as in IZ3D (or Nvida/DDD for that matter).
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Re: Development thread

Post by Guig2000 »

In my guide, the separation relate to the distance between the R and L camera, convergence relate to the zero parallax point so that it just shift L and R view.
Even if I was using iZ3d driver when I wrote it, I tried to make it as universal as possible. But it does not speak at all about the specific considerations of the HMD and so of course it does not speak about the rift and VIREIO as they was not still existing.

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Re: Development thread

Post by n8chur »

I'm having major issues with what feels like a huge deadzone using OculusTrack...

If i move my head really fast it will pick up my movement, but slight movements are not detected at all.

I use a Razer Dethadder mouse and I tried quitting the razer software, turning off "enable mouse precision" and set the sensitivity to different values with no luck.

Sometimes it only detects motion on one axis... It feels like it could be related to rounding (int instead of float?).

Any suggestions?

Thanks!
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

What game are you experiencing this with? Hardware?

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Re: Development thread

Post by cybereality »

The tracker values are floats, and there are not really any filters or anything like that. Not sure what the problem is.
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Re: Development thread

Post by Jademalo »

Guig2000 wrote:In my guide, the separation relate to the distance between the R and L camera, convergence relate to the zero parallax point so that it just shift L and R view.
Even if I was using iZ3d driver when I wrote it, I tried to make it as universal as possible. But it does not speak at all about the specific considerations of the HMD and so of course it does not speak about the rift and VIREIO as they was not still existing.

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Hey Guig, I read your guide when I was trying to figure it all out personally, and some of the diagrams really helped get my head around a few of the concepts. It's a great guide, thank you for it!
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Re: Development thread

Post by virror »

Maybe we could keep this thread a development thread and move all the talks about guides, separation and divergence to a separate thread or something?
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Re: Development thread

Post by Marulu »

Antichamber and Black Mesa work with Vireio, why don´t you guys add them to the txt file and to the website, so more people know about it.

(BTW: Could you please add the Antichamber profile to the next beta release, so I don´t always have to do it myself on every release?^^)
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Re: Development thread

Post by virror »

I think the new games added will be added to the page as soon as there is a new official release, otherwise ppl will complain when the game wont work even though its listed : )
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Re: Development thread

Post by yomer »

Baristan6 and cybereality, could you please explain which classes/methods get modified in the source to add compatibility?

Kind of a flowchart with this format:
[Modify XX.cpp(Method y...)::Brief description of what you're doing here::]->[Modify XY.cpp(Method z...)::Description::]->...->[Final Output]

I would really like to understand how it works and who knows, maybe myself or someone else could find this information useful to contribute further development.

::PLEASE::
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Re: Development thread

Post by Baristan6 »

Marulu wrote:(BTW: Could you please add the Antichamber profile to the next beta release, so I don´t always have to do it myself on every release?^^)
Isn't Antichamber already in 1.0.5rc1?
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Re: Development thread

Post by cybereality »

@yomer: There is some info in this thread: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=16457
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Re: Development thread

Post by ChrisJD »

This seems like a more appropriate thread to have this discussion in. In one of the other threads cybereality said
cybereality wrote:Also, the way the software works, the eyes will be slightly out of sync. Doing it the proper way is possible, but a lot harder.
I've been reading up on DirectX (have some OpenGL experience from Uni but never done anything with DirectX) and trying to determine how one would go about rendering both eyes with the current information every frame rather than updating eyes on alternate frames.

My first naive thought is that I would need to intercept all the DirectX calls that can go between BeginScene and EndScene. Then between each Begin/EndScene, record which methods are called and the data (or pointers) they are called with. Then at the EndScene do another Begin/End with the viewport and ViewMatrix adjusted for the other eye and call all the methods that were recorded between the original Begin/End.


Am I thinking in the right direction or is there a better approach (off the top of any ones head)?
Last edited by ChrisJD on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Development thread

Post by baggyg »

Hi Guys,

This is probably a newbie comment so apologies in advance.

I had previously had perception up and running using trackIR with the shared memory manager to link to freePIE on a Sony HMZ-t1. I tested Dear Esther and everything working perfectly with a good sense of 3D.

However I have just upgraded to the latest beta version (Perception 1.0.5 rc1) to try the new SHOCT feature out. The game still starts fine and shows two screens (ready for viewing in SBS mode) however the 3D effect is completely missing. I tried changing convergence etc but nothing seems to be working. To check I went back and tested in the older Perception and it was still working fine there.

Am I doing something stupid here?

Any help most appreciated.
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

What was the last version of Perception that worked for you? This is just SBS mode, right?

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Re: Development thread

Post by Baristan6 »

baggyg wrote:Hi Guys,
However I have just upgraded to the latest beta version (Perception 1.0.5 rc1) to try the new SHOCT feature out. The game still starts fine and shows two screens (ready for viewing in SBS mode) however the 3D effect is completely missing. I tried changing convergence etc but nothing seems to be working. To check I went back and tested in the older Perception and it was still working fine there.
Which game? Just tested in Skyrim and HL2 and the 3D effect works fine for me in SBS.
ChrisJD wrote: My first naive thought is that I would need to intercept all the DirectX calls that can go between BeginScene and EndScene. Then between each Begin/EndScene, record which methods are called and the data (or pointers) they are called with. Then at the EndScene do another Begin/End with the viewport and ViewMatrix adjusted for the other eye and call all the methods that were recorded between the original Begin/End.


Am I thinking in the right direction or is there a better approach (off the top of any ones head)?
That is the best approach that I'm aware of. Not an easy feat.
yomer wrote:Baristan6 and cybereality, could you please explain which classes/methods get modified in the source to add compatibility?
If you are looking for a tutorial on how to add support for games, one is being developed. If you want to understand the code... Comparing the D3DProxyDevice classes helped me. Just ignore D3DProxyDeviceAdv.
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Re: Development thread

Post by baggyg »

Baristan6 wrote:
baggyg wrote:Hi Guys,
However I have just upgraded to the latest beta version (Perception 1.0.5 rc1) to try the new SHOCT feature out. The game still starts fine and shows two screens (ready for viewing in SBS mode) however the 3D effect is completely missing. I tried changing convergence etc but nothing seems to be working. To check I went back and tested in the older Perception and it was still working fine there.
Which game? Just tested in Skyrim and HL2 and the 3D effect works fine for me in SBS.
Trying on Dear Esther.
Neil wrote:What was the last version of Perception that worked for you? This is just SBS mode, right?

Regards,
Neil
Yes Side-by-Side. Definitely working on official release 1.0.4. Latest BETA Perception 1.0.5 rc1 3D effect is gone. I had a look at the profiles and although they were different even copying the line from working version to non working did not help. Also BETA 12 does not have 3d effect either.
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Re: Development thread

Post by yomer »

Baristan6 wrote:
yomer wrote:Baristan6 and cybereality, could you please explain which classes/methods get modified in the source to add compatibility?
If you are looking for a tutorial on how to add support for games, one is being developed. If you want to understand the code... Comparing the D3DProxyDevice classes helped me. Just ignore D3DProxyDeviceAdv.
Thanks for the info.
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

baggyg wrote:
Baristan6 wrote:
baggyg wrote:Yes Side-by-Side. Definitely working on official release 1.0.4. Latest BETA Perception 1.0.5 rc1 3D effect is gone. I had a look at the profiles and although they were different even copying the line from working version to non working did not help. Also BETA 12 does not have 3d effect either.

I don't have this game, but there are a few possibilities to consider:

1. Are the images reversed? Hit F6 to reverse them.
2. The default convergence in the profile is way off and this is killing the 3D effect. Does the SHOCT system work for you?

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by NikH »

n8chur wrote:I'm having major issues with what feels like a huge deadzone using OculusTrack...

If i move my head really fast it will pick up my movement, but slight movements are not detected at all.
I noticed that myself when I tried the drivers a couple of days ago (having just received my Rift, yay!), so I've had a look at the code and I think I have a fix for it. It is losing the fractional component of the mouse movement each frame, leading to cumulative tracking errors and a drifting pitch and yaw. I've changed the tracker to accumulate the fractional difference in the deltas, and it seems to fix the 'deadzone' feel.

Being a bit of a Github noob, I'm not really sure how I should submit the change. Can anyone clue me in on what to do to submit it?

Nik.
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Re: Development thread

Post by mm0zct »

\o/ this sounds exactly like my problem with skyrim, thanks for finding the problem, and solution, before I had the time to look into it.
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Re: Development thread

Post by ChrisJD »

Baristan6 wrote:That is the best approach that I'm aware of. Not an easy feat.
Challenge accepted, because the flicker effect around fast action when the 2 frames are out of synch drives me crazy.
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

ChrisJD wrote:
Baristan6 wrote:That is the best approach that I'm aware of. Not an easy feat.
Challenge accepted, because the flicker effect around fast action when the 2 frames are out of synch drives me crazy.

Are you offering to program the fix?

If you can do it successfully, I'm happy to get you game keys for Far Cry 3, Bioshock Infinite, Crysis 3, and more...

Regards,
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Re: Development thread

Post by ChrisJD »

Neil wrote:Are you offering to program the fix?
I'm going to give it a go. Don't get your hopes up too much though. DirectX is totally unfamiliar territory for me. The theory I'm working on is pretty simple, but as Baristan6 indicated it's not that simple to actually do.
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Re: Development thread

Post by baggyg »

Neil wrote:
I don't have this game, but there are a few possibilities to consider:

1. Are the images reversed? Hit F6 to reverse them.
2. The default convergence in the profile is way off and this is killing the 3D effect. Does the SHOCT system work for you?

Regards,
Neil
Hi Neil,

Tried again today with the latest.
I tried reversing the images and didn't seem to have any effect at all (The F6 key is used in game for quick save so dont know if this is actually doing anything). I took the DearEsther profile from a version that is working so would imagine the convergence is fine.

Regarding the SHOCT system the lines appear on screen and I can move them. They are very slow (dont know is this is intentional). However I can move them out quite far but the actual scenery does not change at all, in other words the separation remains at 0 (2D image).

I would be happy to buy this for someone to test if they are willing to help me overcome this... I can use the older version of Perception to play but in the interest of making the driver better I am happy to help out.
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

baggyg wrote:
Neil wrote:
I don't have this game, but there are a few possibilities to consider:

1. Are the images reversed? Hit F6 to reverse them.
2. The default convergence in the profile is way off and this is killing the 3D effect. Does the SHOCT system work for you?

Regards,
Neil
Hi Neil,

Tried again today with the latest.
I tried reversing the images and didn't seem to have any effect at all (The F6 key is used in game for quick save so dont know if this is actually doing anything). I took the DearEsther profile from a version that is working so would imagine the convergence is fine.

Regarding the SHOCT system the lines appear on screen and I can move them. They are very slow (dont know is this is intentional). However I can move them out quite far but the actual scenery does not change at all, in other words the separation remains at 0 (2D image).

I would be happy to buy this for someone to test if they are willing to help me overcome this... I can use the older version of Perception to play but in the interest of making the driver better I am happy to help out.

Ok, the SHOCT lines are NOT supposed to move the scenery. You move them according to what you perceive as your actual eye placement. Then you increase/decrease the separation (F2/F3) so that the most distant object is separated to the level indicated by the red SHOCT lines. Then you have to do the convergence adjustments as detailed in the guide, and do a little balancing act to compensate for the changes in separation to make sure that far distant objects are still in line with red SHOCT lines (by increasing/decreasing separation after the convergence is set). We are looking at making this even simpler with better driver math, but this should work for you.

When you press F2/F3, does the game's scenery/separation change?

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by baggyg »

Neil wrote: Ok, the SHOCT lines are NOT supposed to move the scenery. You move them according to what you perceive as your actual eye placement. Then you increase/decrease the separation (F2/F3) so that the most distant object is separated to the level indicated by the red SHOCT lines. Then you have to do the convergence adjustments as detailed in the guide, and do a little balancing act to compensate for the changes in separation to make sure that far distant objects are still in line with red SHOCT lines (by increasing/decreasing separation after the convergence is set). We are looking at making this even simpler with better driver math, but this should work for you.

When you press F2/F3, does the game's scenery/separation change?

Regards,
Neil
Ahh sorry I slightly misunderstood the system. The F2 / F3 keys do nothing to the scene at all - still stuck in 2D (with 1.0.5 / BETA 12). I tested with 1.0.4 and the buttons work fine increasing and decreasing separation.
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Re: Development thread

Post by baggyg »

As another test I tried SBS mode (on 1.0.5rc) with Skyrim and it worked absolutely fine so there definitely looks as though something in the code broke DearEsther between 1.0.4 and 1.0.5.
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