Development thread (Grandfathered; OLD Vireio Structure)

The place for all discussion of the Oculus Rift compatible open source 3D drivers.
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Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

ChrisJD wrote:Another set of tests if anyone has the time.

3 sets of images http://chrisjd32.imgur.com/

Pick the best in each set and indicate if it's still off or not.

Hi Chris,

Before I answer this, I want to show you something. I know we've been having a lot of discussion around convergence because Oculus VR has been promoting that you shouldn't have any convergence with VR rendering.

http://www.reallusion.com/crazytalk/hel ... Vision.htm

When I'm talking about convergence, I'm talking about offsetting the left/right images after they have been captured by the cameras (virtual or otherwise) to determine how much of the 3D is inside or outside the screen. The argument against this with head mounted displays is that there is no screen, so in theory, your eyes shouldn't cross and have these supposed out of screen effects.

So, the first question...how do the words translate into practice?

This is a screen capture from the first Tuscany demo when you walk as close as possible to a candle stick. Tuscany is part of Oculus' SDK:

Image

Remember that the left eye is on the left side, and the right eye is on the right side. Look at the candlestick positioning very carefully. It's crossed! By definition (there is no avoiding it), this is an out of screen experience.

Ok. So, Oculus added rules about no convergence, right? Check out the latest version of Tuscany:

Image

In this case, Oculus tried to avoid negative parallax by erasing the object so you never get the chance to see it. Even if it's a bug, look at the candlestick base...definitely swapped! Not only is this limitation unnatural, it's unnecessary. Your eyes naturally converge on objects, and it's an important function to keep things visually interesting.

Now I'm not a programmer, so I can't speak to the mathematics you are struggling with on the drivers. I look at the visuals and the visual relationships to see if things are right or wrong...mathematics be damned! :lol:

Using the sample from the mouth of babes, I think the first image from Tuscany is really the best one. So how can you mimic this behavior without having a Rift in your hands? Here are some litmus tests that may be helpful.

1. If you have a standard IPD, extrapolate where it physically is on the lens. Using SHOCT as an example, place a vertical red line on the image of each eye to represent where on the lens the pupil actually is.

2. A driving game isn't the best example, but choose an object in the far distance (as far as possible). If you can get that object under the red line in both eyes, your math is in good shape. Remember that at infinity or the most distant object, your eyes point straight forward and no further apart (unless you have divergence which is a no-no).

3. Get extremely close to an object like a wall edge, a candle stick, etc. Just as Oculus' demo shows, it's ok if the images cross. The result should either be mono (zero parallax) or somewhat reversed. SHOCT's convergence test is a good visual indicator you can use so having a Rift isn't necessary.

I apologize in advance for not going through every image in your list. However, based on Valez's input, I chose image 160 to use as an example. Below is the original:

Image

I know you don't have a Rift or 3D display to work with. As there isn't anything close to the eyes in this scene, I think the image should look something like this:

Image

This is just a 3D map to work by. Until the IPD lines are in place, there is no way to know if the game's separation and convergence are correct. The hands aren't reversed, by the way - the interlaced image is a little misleading that way.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by ChrisJD »

Valez, thanks for the input, very helpful. I have a bad feeling that GRID has the drivers cockpit scaled differently to the world.

Neil, I've told you I'm not wasting any more time trying to explain it to you. The only reason I'm replying at all is so that someone else doesn't come along, read what you're saying, and take it as correct without learning about it themselves.
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

ChrisJD wrote:Valez, thanks for the input, very helpful. I have a bad feeling that GRID has the drivers cockpit scaled differently to the world.

Neil, I've told you I'm not wasting any more time trying to explain it to you. The only reason I'm replying at all is so that someone else doesn't come along, read what you're saying, and take it as correct without learning about it themselves.
There is something off with you (suddenly off), and I don't need this kind of mentality in our otherwise friendly gaming community. You're worried about wasting your time?

You want to post software updates on Github, ok. You want to post here, no - not until you are respectful to people including me.

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by geekmaster »

ChrisJD wrote:Neil, I've told you I'm not wasting any more time trying to explain it to you. The only reason I'm replying at all is so that someone else doesn't come along, read what you're saying, and take it as correct without learning about it themselves.
Neil wrote:There is something off with you (suddenly off), and I don't need this kind of mentality in our otherwise friendly gaming community. You're worried about wasting your time?
Argument is usually unproductive, especially when arguing about subjective or perceptive experience. And yet, it is often unavoidable (or at least very difficult to avoid).

What is "correct" and what looks good (i.e. perceptually sufficient) are not the same. And yet, computer graphics and animation have a long and respected history of "cheats" and shortcuts. In the end, I tend to agree with Neil, in that it is the perceptual acceptance that really matters. Sometimes theory is not practical. I like a "hands-on" approach myself, tuning things until they look good.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
― Albert Einstein
Theory (i.e. "correctness") only gives you a good place to start. You often need to "wing it" from there, to actually accomplish your goal "in practice". This cannot be disputed, although it can be argued endlessly, to little effect. However, it is always best to study these things yourself, and to experience them yourself, before forming a resolute opinion. So I agree with portions of what you both have to say in this matter. FWIW...
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

Hi Geekmaster,

Thanks for the post. I'm not (or at least I wasn't) arguing. I don't care what math Chris uses to get the results. As you shared in your post, it's the visual results that matter.

All I did was share methods that Chris can use to test his results (regardless of the math) even though he doesn't yet own an HMD or 3D device. Unless the tests are invalid, I saw no cause to argue or have that kind of reaction.

As long as things work the way they should, I don't care how it's accomplished.

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by geekmaster »

Neil wrote:... I'm not (or at least I wasn't) arguing.
Okay, perhaps "spanking" is a more appropriate word then, eh? ;)
Neil wrote:... You want to post here, no - not until you are respectful to people including me.
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

geekmaster wrote:
Neil wrote:... I'm not (or at least I wasn't) arguing.
Okay, perhaps "spanking" is a more appropriate word then, eh? ;)
Yes...that is a VERY appropriate word. I would have sent him to bed without dinner too if I had my way.

So...how do we make this problem go away and move on to better things? I mean, this is really stupid. Chris, is there anything here to really be all that angry over? Do we chalk it up to a bad day / misunderstanding?

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by geekmaster »

Neil wrote:I would have sent him to bed without dinner too if I had my way.
At least you didn't "hang him out to dry".
nuts.jpg
:o
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Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

Indeed! On to...bigger nuts to crack... :lol:

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by shole »

I don't think the distraction of the black edge of the screen is an issue due to lack of information, since you can't make out detail that far out anyway.
It's mostly distracting by having the wrong colour.
If the edge of the screen we have would be stretched out like this, I think the distraction factor would drop significantly.
Image
I saw a lot of early rift footage that had this effect but now couldn't find them anywhere.


edit:
Oh, apparently i get this effect with vireio if i just comment out return 0; from OculusRift.fx
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Re: Development thread

Post by ChrisJD »

Neil wrote:There is something off with you (suddenly off), and I don't need this kind of mentality in our otherwise friendly gaming community. You're worried about wasting your time?
There is nothing "suddenly off" with me, my patience with your attitude has simply worn out.

You continue to ignore the fact that myself, baristan, philpax and the Oculus SDK are all in agreement. Rather than trying to understand what we are saying you immediately switch to trying to lecture on why you are correct and we and the sdk are wrong. You fail to address any of the points that have been brought up and appear to make no effort to understand what we are saying.

Your final response when I've told you I'm not interested in dealing with you any more? A public attempt to lecture.

Fortunately, we are not in an environment where I might have to nod and defer to doing things the way you want them done. I can, and am, removing myself from having to deal with your attitude and the way you backhandedly disparage other peoples work.
Neil wrote:Yes...that is a VERY appropriate word. I would have sent him to bed without dinner too if I had my way.
You talk about respect and this is your follow up?
Neil wrote:You want to post software updates on Github, ok. You want to post here, no - not until you are respectful to people including me.
Case in point regarding your attitude, you're acting like I need your permission to work on an open source software project, I do not.

The second part is pure irony given your follow up post quoted above and how you have treated my work and opinions and how you have talked about other entities in private (which I shall not name).


As long as this post remains so people can see my point of view as well rather than the tail end of a private matter this will be the end of it and I'll steer clear of this forum.
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

There is clearly a hostility there that doesn't match the situation, and this is the first I've heard of this (i.e. a hostility from others). No one else has come forward with this kind of statement in Skype, PM, or otherwise - and I don't think you will find evidence that anyone has. If there is an underlying concern, this wasn't the way to express it or behave around it. One member of the team was nice enough to guess what your sentiments are, but no one has come forward with anything on their behalf. When I first responded, I was just trying to be nice.

I don't care what you do on Github if it makes for half-decent drivers and contributes to an otherwise free service, but these forums are mine, they are paid for out of my pocket, and I just don't think you belong here anymore - not with that attitude. Good luck to you, and go to your room.

I should add by the way that including yourself and the other team members you speak of (or are supposedly speaking for)...I'm the only one who owns a Rift or a 3D display.

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by mgood »

I will chime in here to write that I have enjoyed perusing the MTBS3D forums to glean information on the current status of the Oculus Rift and people working on related projects, and that I also look forward to seeing Virieo becoming even better at 'virtual reality-izing' games that were never intended for stereoscopic rendering - although from what I'm reading it seems quite good already (I'll get my Rift soon, so soon).

I know not of the politics of the situation and I suspect that ultimately such things will be forgotten, whereas the fun times had while using Virieo and the multitudes of information and experiences exchanged via the forums will not.

Excelsior!
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Re: Development thread

Post by Neil »

mgood wrote:I will chime in here to write that I have enjoyed perusing the MTBS3D forums to glean information on the current status of the Oculus Rift and people working on related projects, and that I also look forward to seeing Virieo becoming even better at 'virtual reality-izing' games that were never intended for stereoscopic rendering - although from what I'm reading it seems quite good already (I'll get my Rift soon, so soon).

I know not of the politics of the situation and I suspect that ultimately such things will be forgotten, whereas the fun times had while using Virieo and the multitudes of information and experiences exchanged via the forums will not.

Excelsior!

Chris knows I'm free to discuss via Skype or whatever when he is up to it, and I'm happy to find a way to move on. Up until yesterday, I really enjoyed Skyping with him, which is why this is all very surprising and upsetting. Once we have a proper conversation and this unnecessary hostility is resolved, I'll be happy to welcome him back to the forums.

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by HoboJoe »

This might not be the best thread for this, but I don't feel like making a whole thread for one question.

I've got the Rift working with Portal 2, and it looks AMAZING, but I wanted to try playing with the 360 controller so that I wouldn't be tied to a desk, but unfortunately it seems that the head tracking and the 360 controller are mutually exclusive, so it's only one or the other. None of the tracking drivers in Perception change this currently - so I'm wondering if anyone has found a solution for this, or if it's something we'll just have to live with until there is native support?

Thanks!
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Re: Development thread

Post by CyberVillain »

Nice progress guys!

1.0.355 of FreePIE now has a IO plugin. You guys might wanna implement it?

We have a C dll that you can import, check the path to FreePIE in registry

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\FreePIE

The path to freepie is in a key called "path"

Concat that with freepie_io.dll and you have the path to the dll, load it with win32. Header file can be found here
https://github.com/AndersMalmgren/FreeP ... eepie_io.h

example code
https://github.com/AndersMalmgren/FreeP ... est/main.c
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Re: Development thread (Grandfathered; OLD Vireio Structure)

Post by Neil »

Just a heads-up that this thread has been grandfathered. The new Vireio Perception structure is so far apart from what we had previously, the game compatibility expectations are different.

Moving forward, the current development thread can be found here:

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=18150

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Development thread

Post by JustJoshin »

Neil wrote:What matters most is we don't want you to end up like this guy:

http://www.anyclip.com/movies/the-jerk/ ... ews-piece/

Regards,
Neil
Sorry to dig up an old thread but this made my day :D
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