Crysis 3 on the Rift

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Virgman
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Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Virgman »

Road to VR posted Crysis 3 running on VorpX. At first glance it looks like the images in each eye are the same. Does this mean it isn't in 3D?

http://youtu.be/48b_LxXQpQI
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Tankshell »

Each image looks slightly different to me. Look again :D
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Virgman »

I was just looking it over again closely and saw that the images were slightly off from each other, but it took a lot of pausing in the video. I guess at first watch each eye didn't look as different as I've seen in other demos or games. Anyone with a Rift wanna give this a whirl and post impressions? I don't get mine until next month (that's with my fingers crossed).

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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by LordJuanlo »

I'll play this video on my Rift as soon as I get home
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by GeraldT »

It's only 2D, but still looks good. I think many of the Injection Driver games are only 2D
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by muterobert »

It's absolutely 3D I promise you. :)
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by GeraldT »

No need to make promises - just show an example :)
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Virgman »

I saw a youtube comment saying you have to download the video and resize it to 16:10 in MPC. Youtube resizes to 16:9 which may have thrown it off.
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by GeraldT »

okay I just made an overlay of the screenshot in photoshop and it is 3D ... like at the super minimal setting

the building in the background is matching, the doubles you see the nearer objects get is the 3D difference between images

I am new, I expected that very light 3D feeling would be due to the large FOV ... still, it is not what I would call real 3D
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Vamplifire »

there is something funny about this. It looks weird or something. I cant put my finger on it
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by GeraldT »

Crysis 2 only used [EDIT ;) ]Z-buffer 3D, the same is likely true for Crysis 3
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Virgman »

Must be due to the Z-buffer rendering over Geometry based rendering. Remember reading about it in the past but forgot about it until now.

http://www.vorpx.com/more-headtracking- ... ometry-3d/

Edit: Guess I can't post that here.
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Neil »

muterobert wrote:It's absolutely 3D I promise you. :)
I'm sorry, try as I might, I just can't sit still for this. This isn't 3D - or at least it's not an effective type of 3D. This is 2D+Depth which means they are taking a single camera view and extrapolating what the second view should look like based on the Z buffer or the depth of the pixels provided by the game.

Remember that it's the differences between the left and right views (two cameras) that make the imagery look interesting. So if you are peeping around tables and candle sticks with the Rift, you absolutely need that extra information to get all the 3D nuances. There is no way that 2D+Depth can provide that. If this is indeed true dual camera rendering, then try it again with more aggressive settings. This doesn't look right as-is.

The reason some driver developers and game developers use 2D+Depth is because they get nearly the same framerates as a standard 2D game. It also dramatically cuts down on the QA testing and correcting they have to do to make their products "3D Ready" (and I use that term loosely). This is how they are able to make claims of hundreds of games supported out of the box.

I've never spoken favorably about 2D+Depth in games and 2D/3D conversion in movies. I would rather have fifty really well supported 3D games than 500 2D+Depth games.
skyrimwithroll.jpg
I know they have a true 3D rendering mode as well which is something I'm a lot more excited about. Show me some over the top screenshots of popular games like this, and then we'll have something impressive to talk about. Good luck!

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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by muterobert »

Indeed, this is using Depth Buffer - other games have options for both Depth and Geometry rendering. The pros of each will be covered in the preview along with videos to accompany the article. As ever you can then judge for yourselves. Personally, having actually played it, I'm quite impressed with the method.
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Virgman »

I wish I knew more about this stuff and I'm learning more everyday. Honestly, I think I just enjoy watching everything come together piece by piece.

Quick question though. Would it be possible to render a game like Crysis 3 using geometry or does the way it was coded make it impossible. I saw maybe a week back that you guys were making progress with DX11 in Vireio. Would that include true 3D rendering and are you finding any limitations?
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by ThomasH »

I agree to having to make a voice heard

This 2d rift 3d support needs to stop at some level.
Having injected 3d support is good, but nothing when comparing true 2 camera eye support.
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by MaterialDefender »

Neil wrote:... I would rather have fifty really well supported 3D games than 500 2D+Depth games ... l
That's cool, man. I guess you're the first in line then to buy the thing I won't mention here, since out of now ~80 supported games about 40 have what you like to call 'true' 3D :) . Pretty close to 50.

On a sidenote: Tuning the Z-buffer effect to something that looks good is usually more work than tuning the geometry 3D, once you have more generizable solution.
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Neil »

This is all words with a 2D+Depth video and an external website review. PM a media sample and I'd be happy to test it and report on my findings.

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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by MaterialDefender »

Do you honestly believe that I write articles about advantages and disadvantages of both methods without having something to test? Be patient.

It would be very easy for me to write not so nice things about 'true' 3D, when it comes to doing this in an injection driver. I won't do so, because things are not as black and white as you say. And you know what? I think you know that pretty well.
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Neil »

MaterialDefender wrote:Do you honestly believe that I write articles about advantages and disadvantages of both methods without having something to test? Be patient.

It would be very easy for me to write not so nice things about 'true' 3D, when it comes to doing this in an injection driver. I won't do so, because things are not as black and white as you say. And you know what? I think you know that pretty well.
All I asked for was a media sample to test the results for myself and share it with the community. Maybe my opinions will change if the experience is different than what I've seen shared so far. Maybe on closer inspection, the product will tie in to something else I have in development. However, if there is any reason to believe the software wouldn't survive MTBS' scrutiny, I can see why the request was dodged. Our product reviews have always been deemed fair and constructive, so I see no cause to miss the opportunity.

Regardless, please be respectful and don't self promote in our forums.

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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by museumsteve »

I'm new here and have no real knowledge of the issues...but as a completely neutral and mature gamer (well over 40), I took Neil's comment and request as actually in very good taste and would have done nothing other than benefit the community and probably the software :)
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Lookforyourhands »

Yah that's not 3d you can tell just by looking at it. (Cross eyed)
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Tankshell »

Tbh I couldn't care less who said what, when, how or why. If it turns out to be a good product, I'll probably buy it. If not, well then I won't lose any sleep over it :0)
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by museumsteve »

Tankshell wrote:Tbh I couldn't care less who said what, when, how or why. If it turns out to be a good product, I'll probably buy it. If not, well then I won't lose any sleep over it :0)
I'd have thought most people will want everything/anything that's available, that way all options are covered :)
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by GeraldT »

museumsteve wrote:
Tankshell wrote:Tbh I couldn't care less who said what, when, how or why. If it turns out to be a good product, I'll probably buy it. If not, well then I won't lose any sleep over it :0)
I'd have thought most people will want everything/anything that's available, that way all options are covered :)
yeah my money printer is broken, I rather wait for a review ;)
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by lmimmfn »

GeraldT wrote:
museumsteve wrote:
Tankshell wrote:Tbh I couldn't care less who said what, when, how or why. If it turns out to be a good product, I'll probably buy it. If not, well then I won't lose any sleep over it :0)
I'd have thought most people will want everything/anything that's available, that way all options are covered :)
yeah my money printer is broken, I rather wait for a review ;)
Give me a shout when its back in action, lol
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Neil »

I got my money printer working, but the ink is worth more than the currency. It's one of those inkjet scams, I tell you!

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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by cybereality »

I barely see any 3D in that video. I'd be much more interested to see how the true 3D rendering looks.
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by MaterialDefender »

If you watch that video on a Rift, you will notice that the 3d-effect in the distance is as good as with geometry 3d. No, often even better, since the effect is controllable in more ways than its possible with two cameras. Nearby objects like weapons are better in G3D, no doubt about that. And I never told otherwise. Also the Z-buffer 3d doesn't suffer from any inherent G3D-problems like misplaced shadows etc. But whom do I tell this? You know as much as I do that both methods have their advantages and disadvantages, at least in 3d drivers. Continouusly pointing out disadvantages of one method while not even mentioning the disadvantages of the other does look a bit strange, I hope you agree.

Besides that: Wouldn't it be better to simply not talk about 'competitors' products? I handled it this way with Vireio for a reason, at least until now. I have yet to see a single game that works flawlessly in Vireio. And I don't even start about technical details. I swore to myself not to look at the code, but in the end I did, of course... Vireio works, no doubt about that. But the need to copy files (bad user experience), the most likely pretty timeconsuming way you have to guess the matrices to be manipulated for different games, scientists most likely would call this a naive approach. Or the use of two viewports, which also is a not so great idea, since you never know whether an application might expect its intended viewport size anywhere, etc., I think you know as much as I do that there have to be better solutions for various things.

Still nice work, though, because in the end it's the player's experience in the game that counts. And that's not a matter of technical details. It's not even primarily a matter of "true" 3d or not. If you ask me, it's not even primarily a matter of stereoscopy or not. But that's only my opinion, of course. To see what I mean by that, just close one eye and check for yourself whether you're still immersed in the world or not.

Thanks for your time,
Ralf
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by museumsteve »

GeraldT wrote:
museumsteve wrote:
Tankshell wrote:Tbh I couldn't care less who said what, when, how or why. If it turns out to be a good product, I'll probably buy it. If not, well then I won't lose any sleep over it :0)
I'd have thought most people will want everything/anything that's available, that way all options are covered :)
yeah my money printer is broken, I rather wait for a review ;)
Only one will have a cost and I'm pretty sure it will be a lot less than the amount I wont now be paying for import vat/duty when my rift gets here ;)
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Virgman »

This is how I view things. I've never had a 3D TV, 3D gaming rig, or basically anything 3D in my home. I've always found 3D on the television to be kind of flawed because it was always still just looking at something in the distance. This is the same flaw people had with both Sony HMDs and what every other HMD suffered before it (or so I've read).

The reason Palmer invented the Rift was because he wanted to get away from having anything in front of your eyes but what you are intended to see. A totally immersive experience unlike any other. This is what changes everything, not necessarily whether it is an entirely 3D experience or not. I think any method that attempts to make use of this brand new technology and bring content to the gamer, despite how it is delivered or whether it is the best should have some sort of inherent value, despite its perceived or actual flaws.

Everything from here on out is a stepping stone, and I know that people who are committed to developing for the Oculus at this point in time are doing it for personal reasons on top of whatever other reasons there may be. We only want to see what works and where we can take this awesome new technology. I love to appreciate everything that everyone is doing for this. I check every day for news, updates, game announcements, and even demos people made in unity consisting of a grass field, one shade sky, and a red ball you can pick up and kinda throw around with a hydra.

At this moment, having the best possible experience isn't totally relevant to me. Do I want it? Yes, eventually. But for the time being, I just want stuff. I want to see what people can do with the Rift. I haven't been this excited for something since I was 12 on Christmas Eve and I knew I was getting a Nintendo 64 the next day because I tore apart my basement looking for it beforehand :D Just one man in a sea of opinions.
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Neil »

MaterialDefender wrote:If you watch that video on a Rift, you will notice that the 3d-effect in the distance is as good as with geometry 3d. No, often even better, since the effect is controllable in more ways than its possible with two cameras. Nearby objects like weapons are better in G3D, no doubt about that. And I never told otherwise. Also the Z-buffer 3d doesn't suffer from any inherent G3D-problems like misplaced shadows etc. But whom do I tell this? You know as much as I do that both methods have their advantages and disadvantages, at least in 3d drivers. Continouusly pointing out disadvantages of one method while not even mentioning the disadvantages of the other does look a bit strange, I hope you agree.

Besides that: Wouldn't it be better to simply not talk about 'competitors' products? I handled it this way with Vireio for a reason, at least until now. I have yet to see a single game that works flawlessly in Vireio. And I don't even start about technical details. I swore to myself not to look at the code, but in the end I did, of course... Vireio works, no doubt about that. But the need to copy files (bad user experience), the most likely pretty timeconsuming way you have to guess the matrices to be manipulated for different games, scientists most likely would call this a naive approach. Or the use of two viewports, which also is a not so great idea, since you never know whether an application might expect its intended viewport size anywhere, etc., I think you know as much as I do that there have to be better solutions for various things.

Still nice work, though, because in the end it's the player's experience in the game that counts. And that's not a matter of technical details. It's not even primarily a matter of "true" 3d or not. If you ask me, it's not even primarily a matter of stereoscopy or not. But that's only my opinion, of course. To see what I mean by that, just close one eye and check for yourself whether you're still immersed in the world or not.

Thanks for your time,
Ralf

Ralf,

You need to figure something out. I think it's very nervy to parade in here talking about your commercial driver and not provide MTBS a review sample to test for itself. You had your shot to self promote months ago when you first made the announcement, and this is largely what got you the exposure and attention you have today. I haven't posted anything in VorpX's forums.

Just this morning, an MTBS credited article has acknowledged VorpX's work:

http://games.on.net/2013/05/vireio-perc ... -mitchell/

You either have an honest to goodness product worth trying and buying, or you don't. If your intentions are to continue posting here about your work and not giving MTBS the means to test and review, then I'm going to have to ask you to leave. It's just not right.

Thanks for your understanding.

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by MaterialDefender »

Neil,

my main point was and is that it is *never* a good idea when people involved in one project start to diminish other projects that are similar in scope, regardless of where this happens. There is always something to nitpick about, everywhere. I don't like to do that, and I don't like that to be done to me.

Criticism should be left to people that are not involved in similar projects, and I think we can easily agree that you are not an independant party here. If MTBS and you in person weren't involved so deeply in Vireio, to my understanding as a teamleader, I might even have considered to provide you with a beta copy. Even after all that happened. I'm sure you'll understand that this involvement changes things a little bit.

So, to iterate myself: I think it's best to stop talking about each other. Be it here or anywhere. Nothing more to say.
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Re: Crysis 3 on the Rift

Post by Neil »

So you are questioning my credibility and my ability to fairly judge a product? After all the people I have worked with over the years; sponsor or not. You think I'm going to bash you on purpose and find things wrong that aren't wrong? I had no idea our community's free and open source drivers - with publicly accessible source code - is such a threat to you.

It's troubling that when your product is faced with real scrutiny by anyone who actually knows what they are talking about, you resort to personal attacks. I guess transparency isn't something VorpX can handle.

Your welcome for all the exposure, by the way. This thread is locked and canned until further notice. Thanks for your understanding.

Regards,
Neil
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