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 Three more ODTs to come 
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Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
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i have searched youtube for another time for ODTs. Voila 3 new designs added within a month! :D

the Omnipad, WalkMouse and the RunPad(http://criffin.com/).





as i understood it the first two devices are active and the third passive....


Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:54 pm
Petrif-Eyed
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Hmm... Isn't there already popular crowd-funded ODT called the Omni? Calling theirs the Omni seems a bit wrong...

Also, what is so special about their design getting a patent? There is prior art there... "Neil Epstein" was not the only person to have this idea:


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Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:28 pm
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
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yeah sure he wasnt the only one who had this idea.
http://www.patentbuddy.com/Patent/6743154
it would be really interesting to see if it in real life would actually work as he mentioned at the end of the video that its not sci-fi...
it was really surprising to see the almost exact logo that the Virtuix Omni has :?:


Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:34 pm
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colocolo wrote:
yeah sure he wasnt the only one who had this idea.
http://www.patentbuddy.com/Patent/6743154
it would be really interesting to see if it in real life would actually work as he mentioned at the end of the video that its not sci-fi...
it was really surprising to see the almost exact logo that the Virtuix Omni has :?:
I read that when they tried this method many years ago, the problem was that the flexible membrane (deflated ball) tended to pucker in the middle under your feet and/or the edges were stretched too tight causing binding. The "synthetic prototype" models look fine and dandy in the computer animated videos, but try finding a spherical membrane that can lay flat under your feet with sufficient stretch to not pucker and trip you up... Even small linear treadmills with much larger motors and a belt with far less distortion have "stiction" problems where they stall/stretch/jerk sometimes while walking on them (especially problematic with smaller treadmills). Lubrication can help somewhat. Can you imagine the maintenance headache with a deflated ball membrane? How do you get inside the ball to lubricate it (or redistribute existing lubricant)?

Patents are a joke without a working prototype to go with them... Especially when they patent prior art or public domain information...

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Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:01 pm
Two Eyed Hopeful

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Just from an enthusiast point of view, that 'omni' design looks like fun! If they could engineer the perfect elastic membrane and combine it with very low latency tracking, could it work? Or would you lose your balance every time you changed direction?


Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:16 pm
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
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geekmaster wrote:
colocolo wrote:
yeah sure he wasnt the only one who had this idea.
http://www.patentbuddy.com/Patent/6743154
it would be really interesting to see if it in real life would actually work as he mentioned at the end of the video that its not sci-fi...
it was really surprising to see the almost exact logo that the Virtuix Omni has :?:
I read that when they tried this method many years ago, the problem was that the flexible membrane (deflated ball) tended to pucker in the middle under your feet and/or the edges were stretched too tight causing binding. The "synthetic prototype" models look fine and dandy in the computer animated videos, but try finding a spherical membrane that can lay flat under your feet with sufficient stretch to not pucker and trip you up... Even small linear treadmills with much larger motors and a belt with far less distortion have "stiction" problems where they stall/stretch/jerk sometimes while walking on them (especially problematic with smaller treadmills). Lubrication can help somewhat. Can you imagine the maintenance headache with a deflated ball membrane? How do you get inside the ball to lubricate it (or redistribute existing lubricant)?

Patents are a joke without a working prototype to go with them... Especially when they patent prior art or public domain information...


you are right, it should be very tricky to find that kind of material.
it reminds of the Biosuit, a space suit that functions as a second skin by applying earth atmospheres pressure mechanically. NASA has a lot of trouble tailoring a tightly fitting suit leaving no points where it doesnt press against skin. The inventor pointed out that skin is really an amazingly elastic and deformable 'material' thats not quiet easy to imitate.
well i hope Omnipads inventor somehow finds a way if he is considering to build it.


Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:06 pm
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Interesting, but I feel like the motorized designs may be too expensive or bulky for most enthusiasts.

The passive design of the Omni does look attractive, though I have never used it so maybe it's not as good as I hope.

Complex mechanical designs may have a market in the VR arcade or theme-park setting.

I know there are guys that spend $10K+ on motorized seats for racing sims, but I doubt most people here could stomach that.

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Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:25 pm
One Eyed Hopeful
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still nothing beats rubberband + door :lol:


Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:26 am
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
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cybereality wrote:
Interesting, but I feel like the motorized designs may be too expensive or bulky for most enthusiasts.

The passive design of the Omni does look attractive, though I have never used it so maybe it's not as good as I hope.

Complex mechanical designs may have a market in the VR arcade or theme-park setting.

I know there are guys that spend $10K+ on motorized seats for racing sims, but I doubt most people here could stomach that.



the inventors of the Walkmouse claim that it will be affordable. :?: the omnipad though looks like it woud be very expensive to produce.
it looks like the Walkmouse uses some flexible screw rings that are driven by a few motorized rolls underneath them to push the user backwards.
This video has a closeup of it. looks like some kind of spring rings. But how could they actually rotate???
if those are spring like rings then this design could be indeed very cheap. those yellow rolls dont look expensive either.... well if you need a few hundred of them. :roll:



However i am curious about the RunPad. The FAqs on their website seem quiet interesting. http://criffin.com/runpad/faq/
A passive ODT that claims to be a unique new design and has the name 'RUNPAD' on which i could crouch
and jump. I have thought so much about possible ODT designs.... :woot it sounds like they have sth very special.


Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:16 pm
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I loved this quote: "this is no hollywood movie but is real"

Ahhh, talk about "these are not the droids you're looking for". Showing us a completely cad generated clip and then saying it's real. Brilliant.

I think the problem with some of these designers is they're still in the Virtual Reality they're trying to bring to life.

The omnipad is an immediate fail without a support structure. That motorized movement would trip up anyone inside VR gear. Plus I can only imagine the latency, not just in the cameras, but in the device itself.


I think the end game for an ODT will be something like a 360 rotating stairmaster with gyroscopes that measures your shift in balance and foot angles, so it keeps you standing all the time. They've done amazing things with balance. Check out this video:



By holding your feet and applying back pressure at the right time (and the right angle) to simulate terrain features but at the same time having a failsafe mechanism to keep you upright, I think it'll end up being the best of everything.

No support structure required, you can walk/run as fast as you want, angle your body, etc. The only thing you'll miss out on is wind you get from running, but that's a different problem that no omni treadmill can solve and requires external fans.

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Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:47 pm
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
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running and jumping on feet following quadrocopters ;) ,man that could be a funny game just by itself.
Indeed balancing would be very crucial if you dont want to be tied to a safety mechanism.
It would be awesome to run at high speed and make huge jumps on a treadmill one day.
i could imagine that this design(TU M√ľnchen) could acommodate running and jumping(stairs) in all DOF.
Though the motors would have to move very very fast to folloow your feet every step. (not that there dont exist fast robots already https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9geaPrEW3E
Attachment:
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I wonder which method you would perceive more naturally, an active ODT on which you have this pulling back every step or a passive design on which you dont have that forces pushing you into the wrong direction but also not that feeling of moving forwards.
Someone tried it already with a unidirectional treadmill and a Rift?


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Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:29 am
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I experimented last year with the concept of the OmniPad and built a few miniature prototypes, but had to conclude that this concept is physically impossible. When you pull the membrane on the top of the platform, you are creating an opposite force on the bottom of the platform. However, that opposite force on the bottom is not isolated, but starts pulling the membrane in directions that include the opposite direction of the top force, resulting in a deadlock. I should probably make a drawing to make this clearer. Fun videos though!

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Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:03 am
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
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i guess this is a concept that needs definitely a lot of research to find the right material.
did you make some pictures of it Jan?
perhaps one needs to cut it in smaller parts(but still connected with some cords) to relieve it from tensions caused by its deformation. Solid state seems to be the show stopper here. there needs to be a middle way.
and the pressure onto the device itself possibly. One should try to levitate the belt magnetically... :lol:


Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:35 am
One Eyed Hopeful

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The Infinadeck holds the solution! A flat platform which reacts to user's movement enabling a true 360 degree movement.


Tue May 27, 2014 7:21 pm
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The infadeck is a complete non starter for many many reasons:

About 10% of VR users have room for something like this and probably only 10% of those can afford/want one. That market is so tiny you can't make any profit to pay for R&D unless you increase the price which decreases the market size. Likely the sweet spot for this 10K plus.

You have to have a harness for safety.

There is so much lag between users and updating the hardware, it's crazy. If you look at it, most of the walking is also done at the North/East/West/South directions rather than in between.

The Omni with it's new capacitive base looks to be the one to beat. Jan is taking his time and trying to manufacture the perfect device. I for one am pretty excited.

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Wed May 28, 2014 7:01 am
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Blade, I agree with you mostly, but two things - I think the infinitdeck will be smaller at a consumer launch - like two treadmills worth, maybe a little more. And yes, a harness probably wouldn't hurt. But a crucial thing to remember is that they don't have tracking implemented yet. Any of the videos, like the one of Palmer trying it, the treadmill was being controlled manually by an operator, hence the lag. I think with perfect tracking and a quick response time, it's the most perfect ODT I've seen so far.


Wed May 28, 2014 3:37 pm
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
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well space is a matter of viewpoint. If you really want to have it then you make the place. lol
the lag was due to manual operation. funny...u could use it like bull riding.....with a few gallons of beer in.
Also if they would solve the lag, reactional forces would still be the show stopper, literally.
The ODT simply just cant predict how you will deccelarate or accelerate in the next moment.
THerefore adjustment of speed would always be unintuitive.
Omni is just doing fine for the moment and if JanVR also can bring down the price a little bit i would be very happy. :D

also if you want the active odt to be very responsive the moving parts should be made out of carbon fiber
or at least alminium. this can double the response time in comparison to steel.
obviously carbon fiber would be a bad solution for scaling as it stands for today. BUT we speak in 20 years. ha


Thu May 29, 2014 2:54 pm
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The Infinadeck at the show had the acceleration purposely turned down to reduce the possibility of an accident. When at full speed with the acceleration turned up, t's capable of reversing directions in about 2 seconds. A lighter weight version now in the works will reduce that number to less than one or faster than a human can. As far as controlling it goes, we're fortunate in that Doc Ok wants to help us tackle that one.


Fri May 30, 2014 9:44 am
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
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@vertiburd: that is cool to hear. :)

any estimates on how light it could be?
and what do you mean by affordable? under 2000?

Maybe you guys could use the MYo to predict leg muscle activity, thus adapting belt speed in advance.
Would be really interesting to know if you could get this ODT to a point where you wouldnt notice anylonger that you are walking on it and it would feel totally natural as you even begin to run.


Fri May 30, 2014 11:26 am
One Eyed Hopeful

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Yea, what you said is the goal. How heavy it is and what it costs is mainly determined by how big it needs to be which is determined by how well the user can be kept in the center. Something twice as big would be four times as expensive. Having said all that, I am hoping but not guaranteeing the cost will be under $4k (hopefully 3) in mass production and weigh 3 to 400 lbs. (It will be able to be be disassembled for transportation.)


Fri May 30, 2014 11:51 am
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I walked on the InfiniDeck at SVVR. There were no safety harnesses or padding. The only safety mechanism was a human operator controlling the "ride". It was awesome, but I still want to try it with an HMD on my face. Another guy tried that and nearly fell off!

I have a 3D video showing me walking on it. I may upload that and embed it here some day...

;)

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Last edited by geekmaster on Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:18 am
One Eyed Hopeful

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I have another thought on the Infinadeck. How many own a typical treadmill? How many use it as a clothes hanger?
One concept with the Infinadeck is that it has the potential for two uses. One would be fitness (which would replace your current treadmill) and the other gaming. For the fitness part, you would be immersed in a virtual reality where you could walk or jog anywhere you would please (real or otherwise). Or, it could be also adapted to exergaming, e.g. the Wii Fit. There is a ton of research out there supporting using games for exercise.


Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:32 pm
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emsman wrote:
I have another thought on the Infinadeck. How many own a typical treadmill? How many use it as a clothes hanger?
One concept with the Infinadeck is that it has the potential for two uses. One would be fitness (which would replace your current treadmill) and the other gaming. For the fitness part, you would be immersed in a virtual reality where you could walk or jog anywhere you would please (real or otherwise). Or, it could be also adapted to exergaming, e.g. the Wii Fit. There is a ton of research out there supporting using games for exercise.
But how do you hang your clothes on the Infinideck when you aren't using it?
:lol:

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Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:45 pm
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