Unity or UDK

Pingles
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by Pingles »

Krenzo wrote:
Mystify wrote:But there is a key difference in where the latency lies. For VR, the important latency is between your head motions and your view adjusting- which is completely independent of the latency with the mmo server, or the impact of your actions on the other players. It may not be suitable for some specific cases, like twitch-based combat, but in general an MMO should be able to work fine.
Yes, but isn't one of the key components of VR a heightened sense of interaction? Is your idea of VR just to look at a cartoony, low res depiction of Azeroth and say "oh wow, I feel like I'm really there"? Do you really want to swing your virtual sword that you feel is really there only to have to wait 500-1000 ms to see that a monster has flinched in response to your attack? Just because latency exists in a different area doesn't mean it doesn't affect your level of immersion.
That's just it...I WANT to be in a cartoony world. I've had enough of reality. I want them to put me somewhere I can't possibly go. But, of course, we are all looking for something different. To each their own.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by Krenzo »

Mystify wrote:MMOs don't do these things because they don't need to, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.
With enough money, you can do just about anything. The server infrastructure would have to change if you supported low latency interaction for sword fights, and now you can't host as many people on the same amount of servers. You can't scale as much, and now you can't maintain as many customers. You aren't able to afford your servers due to fewer players, and you have to shut down. Now what was the point of doing a VR MMO again?
Pingles wrote:That's just it...I WANT to be in a cartoony world. I've had enough of reality. I want them to put me somewhere I can't possibly go. But, of course, we are all looking for something different. To each their own.
Sorry, I wasn't knocking a cartoon world as a viable setting. I was illustrating how MMOs target a lowest common denominator, bare bones experience, mostly to appeal to as large of a customer base as possible because of their operating costs.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by Mystify »

Krenzo wrote:With enough money, you can do just about anything. The server infrastructure would have to change if you supported low latency interaction for sword fights, and now you can't host as many people on the same amount of servers. You can't scale as much, and now you can't maintain as many customers. You aren't able to afford your servers due to fewer players, and you have to shut down. Now what was the point of doing a VR MMO again?
If anything, my proposed change would increase the number of players. You are establishing client-> client connects for the low latency handling, not forcing the server to handle the interaction at a lower latency than normal. The server is only involved enough to counteract cheating and to inform the other players what is going on.
This is a time for clever technical solutions to problems that were not relevant before, not declarations that it can't be done because we haven't tried yet.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by Krenzo »

Mystify wrote: If anything, my proposed change would increase the number of players. You are establishing client-> client connects for the low latency handling, not forcing the server to handle the interaction at a lower latency than normal. The server is only involved enough to counteract cheating and to inform the other players what is going on.
This is a time for clever technical solutions to problems that were not relevant before, not declarations that it can't be done because we haven't tried yet.
I don't follow. How do you have a client to client connection with the server still able to maintain authority to prevent cheating?

The only problem is the one you're making by advocating anyone without deep pockets develop a VR based MMO. I did not say it can't be done. I said "MMOs are not the correct genre to target with VR."

To get back on topic, I previously said:
Krenzo wrote:Does anyone have much experience with UDK? I'm playing around with UDK, and I am not a fan of Unreal Script. Its syntax is a little weird, but the biggest problem is there's no debugger. It's only available to full Unreal Engine licensees.
Apparently the UDK docs are very out of date, and I've been informed there are options available for debugging with UDK.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by geekmaster »

Krenzo wrote:
Mystify wrote:If anything, my proposed change would increase the number of players. You are establishing client-> client connects for the low latency handling, not forcing the server to handle the interaction at a lower latency than normal. The server is only involved enough to counteract cheating and to inform the other players what is going on.
I don't follow. How do you have a client to client connection with the server still able to maintain authority to prevent cheating?
In other words: Allow low-latency direct connections between clients, but send a copy to the server at a lower priority, so that the server can monitor content at will and notify the parties involved in direct contact if it detects cheating. The cheat-detect server process does not need to be low-latency.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by Krenzo »

geekmaster wrote:In other words: Allow low-latency direct connections between clients, but send a copy to the server at a lower priority, so that the server can monitor content at will and notify the parties involved in direct contact if it detects cheating. The cheat-detect server process does not need to be low-latency.
That sounds great in theory, but you're going to have disagreements over the network data/commands. Imagine both players are near death, and both players swing their sword at the exact same time. Each player sends their attack command to the other. Each player then receives their opponent's attack command later due to lag. Each thinks they struck the killing blow before their opponent. Who wins? If you decide that some player is the host and has authority, how do you know they didn't pull their network cable out for a second to prevent their client from receiving their opponents attack command like what people on XBox Live like to do when they're the host? Someone has now died and lost in-game currency which is somewhat related to real currency. That's opening a can of worms.

Ignoring that issue, I also don't understand his assertion that allowing a direct connection with higher latency server authoritative checking will allow more players because the server is still going to use the same amount of bandwidth and cycles to verify the players' commands. It's just happening slightly later.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by German »

Hey guys, could you start a new thread about MMOs and whether Rifts are viable or not? This isn't the thread for that argument.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by drifter »

Yes interesting subject but not the right place.

About Unity and networking : a server comparison chart
(read the topic the chart is not quite up to date)
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by geekmaster »

Krenzo wrote:... If you decide that some player is the host and has authority, how do you know they didn't pull their network cable out for a second to prevent their client from receiving their opponents attack command like what people on XBox Live like to do when they're the host? Someone has now died and lost in-game currency which is somewhat related to real currency. That's opening a can of worms.

Ignoring that issue, I also don't understand his assertion that allowing a direct connection with higher latency server authoritative checking will allow more players because the server is still going to use the same amount of bandwidth and cycles to verify the players' commands. It's just happening slightly later.
I would use signed timestamps event transaction notices using keys provided by the authoritative "cheat detect" server process. Somebody could possible hack the code on their client, but hopefully code signing can help prevent that. Pulling the network connection should not alter signed timestamps that have been queued for later retransmission. The "cheat detect" server would be the final arbiter after analyzing the combined timestamped transaction logs from both players to decide who actually won.

I have not been a (hard-core) gamer, nor do I have much experience with preventing cheating in gaming. However, I was trying to clarify how I understood the quote that you questioned, and I have half a century of computer programming experience in a lot of areas including networking and security. So what I suggested above may hint at a viable solution, or at least give you an idea of what to research.

HTH (Hope That Helps)...
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by Krisper »

EdZ wrote:The free Unity version has some limitations compared to the Pro version (e.g. you can't integrate Razer Hydra support).
Does anyone know if there is any way around this limitation with the free version? I have already put many hours into a Unity game, but I definitely need to get the Razer Hydra working with it. And I can't afford $1500. I have heard of using c# wrappers to access dll's. Would this be possible with the hydra?
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by German »

Krisper wrote: Does anyone know if there is any way around this limitation with the free version? I have already put many hours into a Unity game, but I definitely need to get the Razer Hydra working with it. And I can't afford $1500. I have heard of using c# wrappers to access dll's. Would this be possible with the hydra?
I'm using external DLLs just fine with the free version of Unity 4. I've already got PS3 Move support in my little app through psmoveapi. If they offer a DLL, you can wrap it no problem.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by AntonieB »

Strange there isn't any Razer Hydra driver / package / dll or anything for the Unity 4 free version then...

Should be posible? I'm trying my way with vrpn / uiva but can't get it to work and for uiva there is no razer hydra plugin also...

a way to use the hydra with Unity 4 would be awsome!!
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by drifter »

AntonieB wrote:Strange there isn't any Razer Hydra driver / package / dll or anything for the Unity 4 free version then...
Sixense released only a .com dll... If a skilled coder could create a .NET wrapper... That would be one less big limitation with Unity free.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by AntonieB »

They are talking about a .NET wrapper they already have but not ready made public in december 2012....

http://sixense.com/forum/vbulletin/show ... 4209-So-uh

:( hope they release soon then.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by German »

drifter wrote:
AntonieB wrote:Strange there isn't any Razer Hydra driver / package / dll or anything for the Unity 4 free version then...
Sixense released only a .com dll... If a skilled coder could create a .NET wrapper... That would be one less big limitation with Unity free.
I'll wrap em if someone wants to send me a Hydra. :)
AntonieB wrote:They are talking about a .NET wrapper they already have but not ready made public in december 2012....

http://sixense.com/forum/vbulletin/show ... 4209-So-uh

:( hope they release soon then.
That won't help unless they release the source. You can't access DLLs directly from Unity free.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by AntonieB »

damn... :( I find paying 1100+ euro's for just some hydra / rift proof of concepts / testing a bit to much :(

Have to look into another engine then
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by drifter »

If it's just for a few little demos with confidential distribution, is there so much risk ?
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by AntonieB »

Don't know what you exactly mean by that :) (sorry english is not my main language)?
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by drifter »

German wrote:I'll wrap em if someone wants to send me a Hydra. :)
But German, you know that you will need one soon, anyway ? :)

@AntonieB : I PM you ;)
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by GeraldT »

I think both should be free with UDK and depending on what game you want to make that is the other cool choice ;)
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by Pingles »

I am hoping that the SDK release will include news about support on both Unity and UDK.

And I am guessing an email to Razer may get you news about Hydra support.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by German »

drifter wrote:
German wrote:I'll wrap em if someone wants to send me a Hydra. :)
But German, you know that you will need one soon, anyway ? :)
Nah, I don't like them that much because they're tethered.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by GeraldT »

Pingles wrote:I am hoping that the SDK release will include news about support on both Unity and UDK.

And I am guessing an email to Razer may get you news about Hydra support.
I hope the SDK release will come with a ready-to-go solution for Unity.
Don'e expect too much from Razer, they are not really supporting the Hydra as one would wish or expect. I do know now why there are so few indies using the device.
want to demo the Rift or check it out? click here
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by Krisper »

German wrote:
Krisper wrote: Does anyone know if there is any way around this limitation with the free version? I have already put many hours into a Unity game, but I definitely need to get the Razer Hydra working with it. And I can't afford $1500. I have heard of using c# wrappers to access dll's. Would this be possible with the hydra?
I'm using external DLLs just fine with the free version of Unity 4. I've already got PS3 Move support in my little app through psmoveapi. If they offer a DLL, you can wrap it no problem.
Thanks for the info. I have no idea how to make a wrapper, but I have nothing else to do at the moment and have some coding experience so I am going to see if I can come up with something. If anyone can give me some hints on where to start it could save me a lot of reading.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by German »

Krisper wrote: Thanks for the info. I have no idea how to make a wrapper, but I have nothing else to do at the moment and have some coding experience so I am going to see if I can come up with something. If anyone can give me some hints on where to start it could save me a lot of reading.
Download the SDK on the Steam.

Open up include/sixense.h, this will be your template for the wrapper.

Your methods will look something like:

[DllImport("sixense")]
private static extern int sixenseInit();

[DllImport("sixense")]
private static extern int sixenseExit();

[DllImport("sixense")]
private static extern int sixenseGetMaxBases();

[DllImport("sixense")]
private static extern int sixenseSetActiveBase( int i);

[DllImport("sixense")]
private static extern int sixenseIsBaseConnected( int i );
...

This is mostly cut and paste. The more difficult part is going to be the large _sixenseControllerData struct. You'll need to look up the P/Invoke syntax for mapping it all. Lots of MarshallAs() and stuff. Stackoverflow has some examples of this kind of stuff.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by Krisper »

German wrote:
Krisper wrote: Thanks for the info. I have no idea how to make a wrapper, but I have nothing else to do at the moment and have some coding experience so I am going to see if I can come up with something. If anyone can give me some hints on where to start it could save me a lot of reading.
Download the SDK on the Steam.

Open up include/sixense.h, this will be your template for the wrapper.

Your methods will look something like:

[DllImport("sixense")]
private static extern int sixenseInit();

[DllImport("sixense")]
private static extern int sixenseExit();

[DllImport("sixense")]
private static extern int sixenseGetMaxBases();

[DllImport("sixense")]
private static extern int sixenseSetActiveBase( int i);

[DllImport("sixense")]
private static extern int sixenseIsBaseConnected( int i );
...

This is mostly cut and paste. The more difficult part is going to be the large _sixenseControllerData struct. You'll need to look up the P/Invoke syntax for mapping it all. Lots of MarshallAs() and stuff. Stackoverflow has some examples of this kind of stuff.
Thanks German, that is very kind of you.
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by mscoder610 »

The FreePIE source has a C# wrapper for the sixense SDK too, so that might be a helpful starting point.

https://github.com/AndersMalmgren/FreeP ... aPlugin.cs
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Re: Unity or UDK

Post by Krisper »

mscoder610 wrote:The FreePIE source has a C# wrapper for the sixense SDK too, so that might be a helpful starting point.

https://github.com/AndersMalmgren/FreeP ... aPlugin.cs
Very cool, that should help a lot. Thanks.
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