Full dive device idea

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furrypot
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Full dive device idea

Post by furrypot »

Hi. at first I say sorry for my bad english don't blame it's not my native language...

A few weeks ago I was watching SAO (Sword art online, it's an anime thing... where people have vr helmets that send electromagnetic waves and make them feel with all senses they were in a fantasy game) and this morning I had a lucid dream where i was in that anime, and thought I wish those helmets were real ( if you don't know what lucid dreaming is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream )

Later at work I got an idea of some kind of vr headset and lucid dream fusion, this may sound crazy but it might work ;)
We can say dreaming (and even more lucid dreaming) is sorta virtual reality experience, you can feel the same things like in the real world as weight, pressure, taste, pain and other senses. the key to my idea is to use lucid dreaming technique called WILD (lying on your back without moving until your body get sleep paralysis and begin consciously dreaming ) while having head mounted vr device like Oculus rift and of course headphones and for more advanced, brain interface like EPOC Emotiv.

You might think, it may work but the movement of your virtual body be crappy and pretty hard to control..
But I didn't mentioned what for the WILD technique is, you see when your body is getting paralysed, brain "thinks" that you are asleep and starts streaming random visualizations ( or hallucinations ), but here is the trick, you still hear and react to light even if you are asleep, you can say "I sleep like a rock", but that is not true, your brain is receiving signals from your body and converts into that random dream, I've tested it by myself, for a few weeks i was listening some audiobooks and music while I was sleeping, and more than in a few dreams have seen the main characters from the audiobooks and heard the music. When your body gets paralysed you still can breathe, move your eyes and open them . In that point where hallucinations begin to occur the vr HMD takes action even with the lowest graphics game even with polygons or cubes as your hands ,but the image should look like phosphenes http://ld4all.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=40109 when you rub your eyes. Your brain immediately adds the details how you think it should look and makes you believe you are looking at your normal hands. What I mean if you would play a game with "phosphene graphics" and with not very bright light and colors( because it would woke you up from sleep paralysis ) you could have the graphics like in a lucid dream or like in a real life without super photo realistic pc graphic. But full dive means you can feel all senses, so yes, like in a dream you would feel them too, but it's "limited" how you believe would it feel that you see and hear through the HMD, so pretty much realistic senses. And the last this is to control your vr body, it should be enough to change the view position and that hands would in the image be like fog or something else that normally you couldn't describe but in that state your consciousness would automatically put the right detail, so there won't be no need for the brain interface to describe difficult finger positions, and if you would like to pick or grab some object the display would show the right detail for some time and should be easy to control it...

Things that can be for some people in sleep paralysis:
Forget that this is a game and fall asleep (often in a lucid dream)
occur other hallucinations if you relax too much
Near death experience
Higher heart rate (some time that happens to me while doing WILD)

This is not tested yet, I just used my Lucid dreaming knowledge for this idea, but this needs more research, and I'm doing for some time now. and I need YOUR HELP, you can try my idea and share your experience if you have Oculus rift or other vr device, you might need some phosphene filter for vr games or you can just lower your screen brightness to the lowest, the brain interface would be great but its optional.

Thank you for your time, if you have any ideas how to make it better I will appreciate this :)
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cybereality
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Re: Full dive device idea

Post by cybereality »

Yeah, I think it's a great idea.

Lucid dreaming really doesn't get as much respect as it should. It really is the closest thing we have to true VR and you can do it today basically for free.

Combining VR and lucid dreaming seems like a great move. I did experiment with NovaDreamer like devices (I had a cheaper knock-off called REMDreamer) and I did actually have it work on a few occasions and result in a lucid dream. However, it was too uncomfortable for me to sleep with every night. Supposedly there is a NovaDreamer 2, but it has been "coming soon" for something like 5 or 6 years. Though the potential is there.

It would really be the next generation in a big way. But it's also not an easy problem to solve.
Menas
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Re: Full dive device idea

Post by Menas »

This sounds really interesting. Though there's something that I find a little bit scary in this "Inception-like" experience. Especially when you talked about a near-death experience! I guess it would also be possible to have an heart-attack if you played FPS or horror games...
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furrypot
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Re: Full dive device idea

Post by furrypot »

Yeah Lucid dream is a cool thing and if you want it to have more frequently you have to use one or a few techniques. My device has some problems one of them is how to induce the sleep paralysis state at less time because doing WILD at the day you would have to lie on your back and wait about 30 min or 1 hour to enter that state. Of course there is a faster way, wake up at early morning and stay awake for couple minutes then go back to bed and do WILD, it works rapidly. But not everybody would like to wait half a hour or get up in early morning to play a game... I have one idea how to solve that but I need more research. Another problem like in a lucid dream if you get to excited you wake up, I thought HMD screen should show excitement or relaxation bar so you could keep calm and stay longer and if you get sleepy (in that state happens frequently) the screen would get brighter and remind where you are...

For people who lucid dream near death experience is pretty common but it does not make any harm, except fear if you don't know what it is. Could you get a heart attack? No and yes... If person would play a horror game it probably should wake up like from a nightmare but if person has a serious heart disease that maybe would lead to a heart attack, then I guess that person should eventually die from a regular nightmare while sleeping or taking a nap at day without playing with that device...
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furrypot
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Re: Full dive device idea

Post by furrypot »

Now I'm preparing for a few experiments, making my diy vr HMD more comfortable, and rendering a test video with some filters and brightness adjustments, then I will induce sleep paralysis and see what gonna be :)
Menas
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Re: Full dive device idea

Post by Menas »

May I ask you what you are trying to achieve? I mean, does your motivation consist in using lucid dreams to play games in a more realistic way, or else does it consist in using VR HMDs in order to facilitate your lucid dreaming?
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furrypot
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Re: Full dive device idea

Post by furrypot »

In my view using keyboard and mouse are not very practical, thats like eating a candy but without taste, thats why people are making virtual reality devices. Few weeks ago I was looking for new vr devices and found one called NerveGear but sadly it was just from an anime called "Sword art online" so watched it all (the 1-17 episodes were quite enjoyable) and recently i had a lucid dream with the same point as the anime, I put on the Nervegear helmet and apear in a fantasy world (I knew I was dreaming), on the same day I was thinking about that and found similarities between that fictional device and lucid dreaming, in both, person body get paralysis , the same person virtually appears in a non existing world and has all senses, so why not to try combine these both ? With knowledge and experiance I have about lucid dreaming I could say this might work. And want to see how far I can go with it, the point is to achieve almost full dive with our current technology in this century and have some fun :)
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furrypot
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Re: Full dive device idea

Post by furrypot »

I'm back from testing and can say it WORKS ! ;D OK there is a lot to be changed and improved beside even for me it's pretty damn challenge to not fall into lucid dream and not to wake up my body. I spent over a hour into getting the best quality and experience ...
As the image started to emerge I was getting too excited it fades out and then I start over, it was hard believe... My HMD is not comfortable enough (easy to fix), the brightness is very important if you get too much light it will take longer and harder to induce SP ( next Sleep Paralysis). The simplest example is ink blotch experiment, it's just random shapes but you can envision much more.

Image
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furrypot
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Re: Full dive device idea

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Hi guys ! I'm still working on my idea, but this time I am not alone, at now we're three, I'm doing the most research and design, while other two teammates do software design and programing...

We are hoping, if everything goes right we will start Kickstarter.
One problem is or not, I'm making that device from scrap and don't have fully working prototype, to make it can be very expensive. Can I still start Kickstarter ? At first to make fully operating prototype and then something more...

Ok, in this image you can see the main components of the device.
It's not final prototype, just showing the idea. Under this image will be component list.
Image

Approximately about 961 usd, and with plastic parts maybe 1000 usd

2x Ps3 Eye
30 usd
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Official-Sony-P ... 1e8e5e64d4

Ipad 3/4 screen
55 usd
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-LCD-Screen- ... 4181848edd

Ipad 3/4 screen controller
80 usd
http://www.adafruit.com/products/1716

Fresnel lenses
10 usd

Headphones
14 usd
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adjustable-Head ... 51c133e6bf

Open BCI 16 ch
750 usd
https://openbci.myshopify.com/collectio ... el-r-d-kit

Muscle stimulator
6 usd
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hi-Quality-Musc ... 0615526526

Arduino
9 usd
http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNO-R3-ATmega32 ... 2ed31c2e53

Vibrating motor
5 usd
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Vibration- ... 46223db649

USB Splitter
2 usd
http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Speed-4-Po ... 1e8be7d736

I'm thinking to use Ipad 3/4 LCD screen...

The vibrating motor is not for alarm or massage. To enter Augmented lucidity (I like to call it so) you have to enter sleep paralysis and see hypnagogic hallucinations(It becomes augmented with HMD) or wake up but not fully.. But sometimes it's hard to enter SP, and wanted to make it easier. I did some research and found out, if you do virbrostimulation to your dorsal neck or sternocleidomastoid muscle you get spatial disorientation, thats familiar with SP entering sensation. Brain should speedup the sleep paralysis process.
Iteresting, what I found http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments ... e_up_to_a/

With Ipad screen it looks bigger...
It's just a model, didn't calculated any FOV or other specifications, made this image just to imagine what it would look like.
Image
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colocolo
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Re: Full dive device idea

Post by colocolo »

great thinking.

As for lucid dreaming you need some sort of relaxed bundled thinking i would suggest if possible
to use/try a sensory deprivation tank. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_tank
It cancels out ALL sensory information you get from your nerve endings.
People describe it like a mind floating in space, absolutely weightless, like being quadrupled paralyzed.
There is a company that sells them now for 1700$, but one can build it oneself with a few huzndred dollars only. http://www.zenfloatco.com/shop
I imagine this thing in combination with VR very scary.... :lol:
Might be a help for lucid dreaming. Maybe trying hypnosis.....i tried it with a youtube video for sexual feelings...
guess what........... it worked!!! Not that big sexual arousal as i expected but somewhat the snipping affected
my body.....and english is not my first language....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJx3sx5h9NI
But be careful with the usage....You can feel afterwards very odd and displaced....Take a day for yourself.....
I guess its the same thing what some crazy shark divers did to those tiger sharks in a documentary....hypnotized them with touching.... :?
Back to the isloation tank. I could imagine that this kind of tank would be far more practical if you put a
waterproof very flexible polymer between your skin and the saltwater. A saltwater bed in principle. But temperatuired to your bodies T. And no need to make the electronics waterproof or so.

They were used in the movie AVATAR or Matrix.

One could build it for example with a waterbed mattress.
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furrypot
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Re: Full dive device idea

Post by furrypot »

yeah I was thinking about isolation tank, but it's not very practical, for two reasons needs pretty much space and expensive, so again looking for alternatives. Oh and think about the electronics if it gets water...

So for now I made another concept, used to be worn and a smaller, although more based on guessing if it may really work, without testing I can't know. This could sound stupid, but there is no screen, yep nothing is covering eyes and partly head. How does it work? there is phenomenon called synthetic vision, based on artificial synesthesia, so it simulates vision through other senses, in this case through skin as pressure, temperature and etc. is it possible? yes. Why do I need that, why not to use a regular screen? That is more complex, but if I think correctly the second vision should just pop in users mind just like a thought and until think what you see you will see, and it's much cheaper...

Every day I'm doing researches and reading articles about neuroscience even psychology. Sometimes I ask myself is it worth doing that? and leave this stuff for a few days or a week. Well I'm curious with that all VR toys, or maybe have to much free time, ha...

The concept I imagine should be from two parts one every time sticking on the skin and the other just for that time while "diving" in the full body immersion, the sticky part is more creative, thin electronics covered with protective layer that looks like a tattoo...

I don't say that it is easy, indeed it's super complex to create that device and needs thousands of researches and help from people who really has knowledge in that stuff

I forgot to mention that all senses should be simulated by artificial synesthesia.

Some sketches... Maybe later I will explain how this concept should be working...
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colocolo
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Re: Full dive device idea

Post by colocolo »

It may at some poiint in time be interesting to see if triggering your dream time with
virtual retina contact lens displays might work. http://vrdisplay.blogspot.de/
As those would be the only device that you could wear while having your eyes closed but you would
still receive an image.
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furrypot
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Re: Full dive device idea

Post by furrypot »

A week ago I was talking with a few people who have knowledge in that stuff I'm doing.

I found out few things that prevents to make my idea fully working... But that does not mean it's impossible !

At first, I wanted to use some kind a Virtual reality and lucid dreaming fusion, and it works, at some degree... even if you can see more realistic image, brain works differently when half asleep (but you're conscious) than fully awaken, you can't know what actually you will see, a rough example would be, you are seeing a cat, but the HMD is showing a tree...

Secondly, controlling your avatar in a game, possibly a EEG device that picks brain waves and converts into electrical impulses and then processes to commands, will not work, like I mentioned at sleep brain works differently, and by the same, most movements are processed in the spinal cord...

So yeah... at some point it's possible, but to have just the feeling of being in a immersive VR world..

But in my opinion it's not the end, I will do some more experiments on that Virtual reality and lucid dreaming "fusion" just for curiosity.
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