What does the perfect ODT look like?

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EarthQuake
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What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by EarthQuake »

I have been watching with a curious interest the development of assorted styles of ODT (or any sort of device that provides stationary locomotion) and I can’t help but feel that the current range of solutions are significant compromises.

The vision I have in my head of an ODT is of a flat surface, that looks very similar to a Wii fit, just a flat platform that you get on and walk.

In my idealised image there are no special shoes, and no support rails wrapped around it. You stand on something and that something takes care of every aspect of locomotion.

I’m not just coming here to knock what is clearly some exceptionally well thought through engineering ideas. I studied Engineering Design, and have been involved in developing IT all my working life.

I am here to get an understanding of the problem, to see if others share my view on the current state of the art. With a view to considering new solutions to this problem.

So my question is, what do you want from an ODT platform? What frustrates you about current systems, how would you change what is there, what is the ODT of your dreams…

Thank you for your time.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by MSat »

An ODT will always be a compromise and never be able to faithfully emulate anything but the simplest of reality (like using a real treadmill to run on one in a virtual world).
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by colocolo »

yes you are right very many compromises.
i think this design although unidirectional has many potential if it was designed in omnidirectinal form.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7vYd7mdtIM
also a plus its a passive design.

The perfect ODT though would be sth like this:
bbab0df808.jpg
Feet following pads that coul adapt to all degrees of freedom simulating the perfect virtual terrain including stairs. Depending on your walking speed those robotic arms would have to move pretty fast.
Haptic insoles, pneumatic or hydraulic could simulate in addition ground consistency.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by EarthQuake »

MSat wrote:An ODT will always be a compromise and never be able to faithfully emulate anything but the simplest of reality (like using a real treadmill to run on one in a virtual world).
Yes, of course these things will always be a compromise of something, my point is more that maybe there could be considerably less compromise.

These are all very much generation one ODT devices. My question is, what might the Generation two devices do differently, and if you're feeling really brave what do you imagine generation 5 or 10 will bring
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by EarthQuake »

colocolo wrote:yes you are right very many compromises.
i think this design although unidirectional has many potential if it was designed in omnidirectinal form.
also a plus its a passive design.
I've always liked the ball bearing form of ODT. It has unfortunate limitations, but it seems an interesting solution to some problems.
colocolo wrote: The perfect ODT though would be sth like this:
Feet following pads that coul adapt to all degrees of freedom simulating the perfect virtual terrain including stairs. Depending on your walking speed those robotic arms would have to move pretty fast.
Haptic insoles, pneumatic or hydraulic could simulate in addition ground consistency.
I'm a little curious as to what that is? I've not seen that pic before.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by colocolo »

that is a picture from a project called 'Cyberwalk' done in 2004 at the techincal university in Munich.
http://www.google.de/imgres?sa=X&biw=12 ... ,s:0,i:140
you can switch the text to english.
It would be interesting if they would build it sometime.
of what limitations for ball bearings are you actaully thinking of?
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by MSat »

EarthQuake wrote:
MSat wrote:An ODT will always be a compromise and never be able to faithfully emulate anything but the simplest of reality (like using a real treadmill to run on one in a virtual world).
Yes, of course these things will always be a compromise of something, my point is more that maybe there could be considerably less compromise.

These are all very much generation one ODT devices. My question is, what might the Generation two devices do differently, and if you're feeling really brave what do you imagine generation 5 or 10 will bring
Well, I don't think they could get much simpler than the Omni, for example. Therefore, that'll likely be the cheapest system.

More advanced ODTs would be active systems. Extremely responsive and sensitive complex articulating leg/foot braces perhaps. Of course, such a thing, or any active system for that matter could be pretty scary should it go haywire.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by colocolo »

i think the Omni is a very good design for a first gen of ODTs. Though i think it could be substantially improved.
It just needs many many more and expensive prototypes.
Getting rid of the waist support for example would be major improvement no 1. Therefore you would need some kind of
sophisticated stopping mechnism in the middle of the platform to provide enough support to make the next stable step.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by EarthQuake »

MSat wrote: More advanced ODTs would be active systems. Extremely responsive and sensitive complex articulating leg/foot braces perhaps. Of course, such a thing, or any active system for that matter could be pretty scary should it go haywire.

I am curious what sort of additional articulation would you imagine leg / foot braces providing?
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by EarthQuake »

colocolo wrote:i think the Omni is a very good design for a first gen of ODTs. Though i think it could be substantially improved.
It just needs many many more and expensive prototypes.
Getting rid of the waist support for example would be major improvement no 1. Therefore you would need some kind of
sophisticated stopping mechnism in the middle of the platform to provide enough support to make the next stable step.
Are there any current systems out there that have managed to get rid of the waist support -that you're aware of...

I suppose it would need to be intelligently active in order to begin considering removing that layer of support from the system.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by Likay »

Some kind of balancesupport is needed if you're "moving on the spot" since the movement itself can not be used to maintain balance (as mentioned above an active system can be used to help with this to some degree but it's complicated and expensive). It's not impossible but i figure that the difference/difficulties in keeping balance would significantly decrease the immersion.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by colocolo »

EarthQuake wrote:
colocolo wrote:i think the Omni is a very good design for a first gen of ODTs. Though i think it could be substantially improved.
It just needs many many more and expensive prototypes.
Getting rid of the waist support for example would be major improvement no 1. Therefore you would need some kind of
sophisticated stopping mechnism in the middle of the platform to provide enough support to make the next stable step.
Are there any current systems out there that have managed to get rid of the waist support -that you're aware of...

I suppose it would need to be intelligently active in order to begin considering removing that layer of support from the system.
No,......but yes. there is this Walkmouse, but its an active device and yet not available. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBV_1PHmDIo
Intelligently controlled electro-magnetic force could stabelize your foot in the middle of a Omni-like device or retractable studs
on the soles that extract(passivly via g-force) when they slide over a grid like center with many holes. IMO there are ways to overcome this problems. it isnt just that easy to think of in your head to see if it works. You really need to build prototypes.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by MSat »

EarthQuake wrote:
MSat wrote: More advanced ODTs would be active systems. Extremely responsive and sensitive complex articulating leg/foot braces perhaps. Of course, such a thing, or any active system for that matter could be pretty scary should it go haywire.

I am curious what sort of additional articulation would you imagine leg / foot braces providing?
The kind of articulation that would be required in order to minimize the feel of "wearing" such bracing. That's what makes it complicated. I suppose that the mechanical system could just connect to a boot, and instead of using a leg brace for safety, it could utilize something like a backpack harness.

This also brings up the fact that an advanced ODT would require integration with a game, as it would need terrain description data in order to control the articulation (think stairs, incline/declines, etc).
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by blazespinnaker »

The perfect ODT wouldn't be a treadmill at all.

It would be something similar to a 360 degree rotating stairmaster and it would have hyper sensitive 'shoes' and 'gloves' that securely clip over your feet and hands. They would provide perfect back pressure at the right angle to simulate any kind of terrain at any angle.

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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by EarthQuake »

MSat wrote: This also brings up the fact that an advanced ODT would require integration with a game, as it would need terrain description data in order to control the articulation (think stairs, incline/declines, etc).

I suppose at some point in the development of these things there will need to be an integrated API created to enable the full functionality of advanced ODTs to be utilised in games etc.

The problem with that of course, is that whoever decides to build a complex ODT, will need to figure out how to integrate it into existing systems.

I suppose making an extended API available would invigorate the community to develop towards it...

chicken and egg and all that!
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by EarthQuake »

blazespinnaker wrote:The perfect ODT wouldn't be a treadmill at all.

It would be something similar to a 360 degree rotating stairmaster and it would have hyper sensitive 'shoes' and 'gloves' that securely clip over your feet and hands. They would provide perfect back pressure at the right angle to simulate any kind of terrain at any angle.
Do you think it would be important for 'naked' controls, i.e. having a system that doesn't require special shoes / gloves etc? I always had the vision of something that can just be stood on and used, but maybe that is unrealistic...
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by colocolo »

a foot following device wouldn't necessarily require special shoes. Those foot pads just need to follow your feet optically via machine vision(2 or three leap motion would be ideal for that task). And ideal safety mechanism would be a climbing harness that is fixed to the ceiling.
Such a system would be rather complex but nevertheless much less complex than those monster 3x3meter ODTs with hundreds of actuators,chains,belts......
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

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colocolo wrote:a foot following device wouldn't necessarily require special shoes. Those foot pads just need to follow your feet optically via machine vision(2 or three leap motion would be ideal for that task). And ideal safety mechanism would be a climbing harness that is fixed to the ceiling.
Such a system would be rather complex but nevertheless much less complex than those monster 3x3meter ODTs with hundreds of actuators,chains,belts......

My first thought whenever I see safety barriers / hanging harnesses is would the Wii Fit have been a success if it had needed such things. I can't help but feel a resounding no. I don't know if it is possible, but I can't imagine deep market penetration occurring until this becomes something that can be hidden away out of sight (without dismantling) when the gf etc comes home.

I suppose the special footwear etc are needed to ensure that the friction is maintained at a reliable level. Overcoming that is a tricky part.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by colocolo »

Well you could use it without safety mechanism....sure.....the device could become good enough so that you dont need it...
all a question of personal will....
concerning girlfriend..... IMO the girlfriend needs to get out of the way... :lol: .... but honestly i think many traditional behaviours,
role clichees will change with VR.... somehow VR will change the small-mindedness of people.....hopefully :?:
i think in the end women will love this device and you will need a second.
those foot following pads just need to have high friction...problem solved.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by EarthQuake »

colocolo wrote:Well you could use it without safety mechanism....sure.....the device could become good enough so that you dont need it...
all a question of personal will....
concerning girlfriend..... IMO the girlfriend needs to get out of the way... :lol: .... but honestly i think many traditional behaviours,
role clichees will change with VR.... somehow VR will change the small-mindedness of people.....hopefully :?:
i think in the end women will love this device and you will need a second.
those foot following pads just need to have high friction...problem solved.
It makes me wonder if anyone is working on a solution that addresses the safety mechanism problem, it would be very nice to get rid of it.

one thing that has bugged me about the current crop, is that they only support one person at a time. (but I know that's just wishful thinking - and we're a very long way from solving that one)

The friction depends if the foot is stationary on it and the pad moves, or if the foot is moving on something. somewhere there is going to be a surface that needs to be very low friction (or driven) to emulate moving
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

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i have thought about ODTs for many many hours.....days....weeks....perhaps someone will come up with a super solution.....
but honestly.... there is no way around a BCI/NCI (brain-nerve-computer-interface)....thats wishful thinking too....
For the next or two decades we have to come around with ODTs. But thats still not all. What is bubbling in our sub-consciousness and what we are yearning for is the dream of fully penetrating VR, with all our senses. At least touch and complete muscle control(at least 30 or so) over a virtual human.

in case of the ODT that is on the pictures blazespinnaker has provided the surface needs to have high friction.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by EarthQuake »

The difference that I see between that sort of system and a 'good' ODT (with other peripherals that are equally well innovated) is that there is no technical issues with developing the ODT, whereas any sort of brain interface is every much in the realm of science fiction for the foreseeable future.

I can see a solution akin to the 'brainport' devices that are used to provide visual input to the blind via the tongue. I am sure this style of technology will expand greatly over the next few years but direct brain connections, I find it highly unlikely that it is coming in the next ten years (it would need to be in trials for that long before touching the mainstream, to check for sideeffects etc)

A 'good' ODT just needs inventing whereas a brain interface needs some revolutionary understanding of how the brain works.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

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EarthQuake wrote:The difference that I see between that sort of system and a 'good' ODT (with other peripherals that are equally well innovated) is that there is no technical issues with developing the ODT, whereas any sort of brain interface is every much in the realm of science fiction for the foreseeable future.

I can see a solution akin to the 'brainport' devices that are used to provide visual input to the blind via the tongue. I am sure this style of technology will expand greatly over the next few years but direct brain connections, I find it highly unlikely that it is coming in the next ten years (it would need to be in trials for that long before touching the mainstream, to check for sideeffects etc)

A 'good' ODT just needs inventing whereas a brain interface needs some revolutionary understanding of how the brain works.
Yes you are right, a good ODT certainly will be accepted much faster. :lol: But right now humanity doesnt even know about VR and its future potential. It sounds Science-fiction and is still fiction but actually it would be more science.
I have an idea how a neural interfaced virtual reality may look like in 10 years. if in a scientific state or consumer state doesn't matter now.
You will be naked and lay in a sensory deprivation tank. A sensory deprivation tank is a bathtub filled with saltwater heated to 34,8°C. Because this is your body temperature your brain will start to loose feeling of your skin and because the water has the same density as your body you won't feel your muscles anymore, thus be weightless.(so thats how you would get rid of real world perception noise) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_tank
Since you are seeing a perfect visual simulation via a head-set of a world and also hear ray traced sound via earphones only sensory input and motoric output is missing.
To simulate touch a large array of ultrasonic transducers that surround your body would simulate sensory input. (a technology that has already been proved)
Getting motoric signals out of your body would be a little more trickier. First sceletal striated muscles need to be turned off otherwise
they would start to move in the tank. Therefore medicine has invented muscle relaxants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_relaxant) which are commonly used while operations.
In this case you would need peripheral muscle relaxants that block the transmission at the end of the neuromuscular junctions.
So your brain would still send out the signals down the peripheral nerves but your muscles wont move.
The hope is that some cables are connected to your peripheral nerves or on your skin that will measure motoric signals electroneurographically and transmit them to a computer/virtual avatar.
At some point humanity will comprehend the value of neural interfaced VR......and understand that it means nothing else than paradise....
At least from a materialistic point of view. At that point many research will go in that direction.
Its already happening.
27546201.jpg
http://www.google.de/imgres?sa=X&biw=12 ... ,s:0,i:107
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by EarthQuake »

I think we simply don't understand the possibilities of these systems anything like enough to speculate how they might be used. However I do suspect that if any sort of neural interface where created it would be considerably more subtle than attaching wires to nerves.

The original point of this thread was trying to understand what could improve current ODT technologies, what the shortfalls are (both real and perceived) The purpose being if we can understand how current systems don't measure up, we can begin to create solutions that do.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by colocolo »

sorry about that.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by Simnertia »

For me the biggest omission in the current crop of ODT is a sense of directional momentum. It is a response that our vestibular system expects when we do anything like change direction or accelerate/stop. I can only imagine this current omission would contribute to the nausea some experience. The only system I saw that generated any momentum was the virtusphere, not very lounge room friendly, but if you got the mass of the sphere right for the user, the momentum would feel about right.
Systems like the Omni would let you go from a sprint to a dead stop on a dime, maybe a great feature for gaming but limits realistic immersion.
I too have been stewing on ODT designs for a few years and have finally bitten the bullet, bought a 3d printer in September and have been prototyping since. I've come up with an unpowered system that strips a lot of the bulk away from the virtusphere with a similar effect. Should be about the size of an omni but obviously more complex mechanically. Wish me luck !!!
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by colocolo »

Simnertia wrote:For me the biggest omission in the current crop of ODT is a sense of directional momentum. It is a response that our vestibular system expects when we do anything like change direction or accelerate/stop. I can only imagine this current omission would contribute to the nausea some experience. The only system I saw that generated any momentum was the virtusphere, not very lounge room friendly, but if you got the mass of the sphere right for the user, the momentum would feel about right.
Systems like the Omni would let you go from a sprint to a dead stop on a dime, maybe a great feature for gaming but limits realistic immersion.
I too have been stewing on ODT designs for a few years and have finally bitten the bullet, bought a 3d printer in September and have been prototyping since. I've come up with an unpowered system that strips a lot of the bulk away from the virtusphere with a similar effect. Should be about the size of an omni but obviously more complex mechanically. Wish me luck !!!
Interesting, stripping a lot the bulk away from the virtusphere basically means a bowl with balls or rolls in it in a omnidirectional design, not?
I came to the conclusion that such a design provides the same walk mechanism as the bulky virtusphere because your shoes always roll back
due to gravity and curvature much like in a Virtusphere though you don't slide like(feel vibration because of friction) on a Omni.
Pictures please! :D
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by MSat »

Simnertia wrote:For me the biggest omission in the current crop of ODT is a sense of directional momentum. It is a response that our vestibular system expects when we do anything like change direction or accelerate/stop. I can only imagine this current omission would contribute to the nausea some experience. The only system I saw that generated any momentum was the virtusphere, not very lounge room friendly, but if you got the mass of the sphere right for the user, the momentum would feel about right.
Systems like the Omni would let you go from a sprint to a dead stop on a dime, maybe a great feature for gaming but limits realistic immersion.
I too have been stewing on ODT designs for a few years and have finally bitten the bullet, bought a 3d printer in September and have been prototyping since. I've come up with an unpowered system that strips a lot of the bulk away from the virtusphere with a similar effect. Should be about the size of an omni but obviously more complex mechanically. Wish me luck !!!
Your body/vestibular system doesn't sense momentum (can you tell you're going 500MPH on a plane?) but rather the accelerations in various directions you feel when you're walking/running. I think the vertical accelerations in the form of up and down bobbing you feel while on an ODT is sufficient to prevent motion sickness. You can try this in the Rift by bobbing up and down in-game (even while you're sitting) to see what I mean.
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Re: What does the perfect ODT look like?

Post by Simnertia »

MSat wrote:
Simnertia wrote:For me the biggest omission in the current crop of ODT is a sense of directional momentum. It is a response that our vestibular system expects when we do anything like change direction or accelerate/stop. I can only imagine this current omission would contribute to the nausea some experience. The only system I saw that generated any momentum was the virtusphere, not very lounge room friendly, but if you got the mass of the sphere right for the user, the momentum would feel about right.
Systems like the Omni would let you go from a sprint to a dead stop on a dime, maybe a great feature for gaming but limits realistic immersion.
I too have been stewing on ODT designs for a few years and have finally bitten the bullet, bought a 3d printer in September and have been prototyping since. I've come up with an unpowered system that strips a lot of the bulk away from the virtusphere with a similar effect. Should be about the size of an omni but obviously more complex mechanically. Wish me luck !!!
Your body/vestibular system doesn't sense momentum (can you tell you're going 500MPH on a plane?) but rather the accelerations in various directions you feel when you're walking/running. I think the vertical accelerations in the form of up and down bobbing you feel while on an ODT is sufficient to prevent motion sickness. You can try this in the Rift by bobbing up and down in-game (even while you're sitting) to see what I mean.
Yep agreed, the term I meant was a change in momentum (ie. an accelaration). I can only comment from experience in ocean racing. Go below deck where visual cues don't match the actual accelerations and motion sickness kicks in. Close your eyes or fix eyes on horizon and all fixed. Moving inside the boat is better than being stationary but only just.
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