My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

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jackbauer
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by jackbauer »

Just a word about Dolby-3D calibration...

I use the two filters in front of one single projector, side-by-side, 5mm gap in beetween:
Image

Then I use a calibrating pattern, Right-eye on the left, Left-eye on the right (I am accustomed tu use cross-vision for my tests in general).
Because of the gap beetween the filters, the center patterns are not filtered and are used for color reference (115=45% brightness, simulating filter attenuation).
Image

(The above is after calibration and shows the modified colors that will look the same when filtered. That gives you an idea of how badly you need color correction...)

Then I tweak each color for both eyes to match as closely as possible the center pattern, using, for each:
newcolor = k1*R + k2*G + k3*B

When completed, closing the program creates a profile file which in turn is used to build the LUT tables required by AVIsynth.

So 16 millions colors are interpolated from 8 basic colors (the seven lines of patterns plus black). These 8 colors are the corners of a 3Dlut cube in 3D space geometry:
primaries, secondaries, black and white.
Image

This is the basics. Now I am using 27 basic colors with the same method. Mid-range vertexes have been added to the cube.

So, if you use the card driver, you have only access to two points: black and white (tweaking the curves may help though). If you look at the calibration patterns, you can see that white (last line) defines the primaries. That may be a good start. But you also see that the primaries themselves, when calibrated, use other values.

Jack
Last edited by jackbauer on Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by Likay »

Using crossvision to calibrate is brilliant! Some testing to get the values right but only needed to do once.
I hope for driver calibration though since gaming is most important for me. Funny thing: I'm really looking into an ati-card next time (eyefinity and fixed iz3d-driver) but it would be nice to still my curiosity about narrowband filtering. And maybe, just maybe adjusting colors will be possible in the future using ati.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by supraturbo »

I'm just wondering where you got the DDD alignment test pictures. Does it come with the tri def drivers or could someone maybe send me a link to them.

Thanks :shutter
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by BlackShark »

The DDD image is part of the Tridef package but I don't use it.
I found the picture on the web and just use it in a picture viewer.

I couldn't find exactly where I found it so I uploaded a copy for you here :
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?g6202hla505p65r" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's a side by side squashed picture for 3DTVs, so in order to use it with dual projectors, just stretch it horizontally.
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2x Epson EH-TW3500 (2D 1080p)
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by supraturbo »

thanks, i appreciate it.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by Fredz »

BlackShark : did you try the DDD ghosting test with other 3D displays or CRT monitors ? If that's the case, how do you find the ghosting compared to your dual-projection setup ?

jackbauer : I don't really understand how the Infitec technology really works, but do you think they could be used like classic anaglyph glasses using color correction on standard displays ?
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by BlackShark »

I only tried it on the other display I have : the Zalman Trimon 22" monitor.

There is definitely more ghosting on the Zalman screen, by a significant amount.

Some 3DTV reviews include a screenshot of the TVs displaying the DDD alignment test picture. For example the 3DTV reviews at http://www.digitalversus.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; do have them.
Passive 3D forever !
DIY polarised dual-projector setup :
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (2D 1080p)
Xtrem Screen Daylight 2.0, for polarized 3D
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by Fredz »

BlackShark wrote:I only tried it on the other display I have : the Zalman Trimon 22" monitor.
There is definitely more ghosting on the Zalman screen, by a significant amount.
I'm not really surprised but it's nice to know. Did you publish the DDD test images for the Zalman somewhere on the Web yet ?
BlackShark wrote:Some 3DTV reviews include a screenshot of the TVs displaying the DDD alignment test picture. For example the 3DTV reviews at http://www.digitalversus.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; do have them.
Mais c'est le site Les Numériques ! ;)

I already knew about this one, in fact I've collected DDD ghosting tests for more than a dozen 3D displays for now. I'm trying to extend my collection in order to evaluate the different technologies with respect to ghosting.

For now it gives me DLP > Plasma, Dual LCD > CRT > LCD, but I've yet to implement an application to objectively measure the differences in ghosting.

By the way, what settings did you use to shoot the screen with your camera, I've tried some manual settings but I wasn't able to obtain good pictures yet (ISO 800, 1/125 and F2.6 last I tried).
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by BlackShark »

I didn't use an actual camera, it was done with my camcorder (which has a very crappy photo mode).
I set it on a tripod, set the exposure time to the longest allowed by the camcorder : 1/3 second, and then I set the exposure at the first notch that showed over-exposure (zebra tool appearing on the over-exposed areas). I then took the shot using the delay timer feature in order to make sure my pressure on the trigger would not make the picture blurry.

Then on the computer I modified the gamma curve a bit in order to make the grey scale look more even on the monitor and the ghosting appear more like my eyes were seeing it. (the blacks were so crushed on the original picture that you couldn't distinguish the ghosting areas from the black).
Passive 3D forever !
DIY polarised dual-projector setup :
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (2D 1080p)
Xtrem Screen Daylight 2.0, for polarized 3D
3D Vision gaming with signal converter : VNS Geobox 501
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by Fredz »

Thanks for the informations, I didn't think about using the delay timer, I'll try that.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

Hi

Today i "upgraded my ati 4350 to nvidia 210 card, and have a big problem!
I connect 2 infocus 720p projector to it: one to hdmi and other to dvi.
In this case the horizontal span mode is not selectable anymore :(
I need this mode becuase Stereoscopic player like it much more, than
dualview, which is selectable, but i get big sync problem and many black lines
on the picture when playing in dualscreen mode.
When i change one projector to a monitor (with dvi->vga converter), span
mode is selectable and works like a charm for 3D.

So my 2 question:
- why disappear this mode when i am in dvi+hdmi connection?
- in dualview why i get black lines? seems like the card isnt fast enough
or the ddr2 ram is too slow, but i dont think so, because the ati 4350 was
with exactly the same memory, and worked well.

Oh, i'm in xp sp3, latest nvidia driver and directx.

Help!
thx!!
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by Likay »

Only nvidia knows...
The horisontal span is removed from nvidiadrivers in vista/win7, perhaps because they've introduced the new feature surround... Surround wouldn't had been a new feature otherwise. :roll: Just joking but they've already done it with 3d.
I don't really know the answer but it's a driver issue for sure. Below win7 the drivers for dual outputs and nvidiacards have been well synced in last revisions of their drivers (at least using a 8800gtx) but i'm not sure if it's only a coincidence. It doesn't seem to follow winxp according to your experience though. :( Remember that the 210-card surely isn't the fastest around though.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by cybereality »

I don't know if that low-end card can really cut it. I bet you would have no problem if you had a better video card with dual DVI outputs. The GTS 450 is probably the cheapest card I would consider if I were you.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

Some weeks ago, i have a chance to test exactly the gts450, and with it
i also have playback problem! It was just not smooth.

So "I don't know if that low-end card can really cut it. "
Yes, it can. Ati 4350 was the same cheap, 64bit, ddr2 model, and it worked!
It's just not good for modern games i know, but i only want to play 2 hdv videos
without any problem to dvi and hdmi output. This can handle those cheap cards with
fast dualcore cpu.

"The horisontal span is removed from nvidiadrivers in vista/win7"
Yes, i read that, but i'm in xp sp3.
And how i read THIS IS THE PROBLEM!

Directx renderer has a bug in xp, that was fixed in vista/win7
So maybe i can use dualview without a problem in win7!
Too bad i buyed xp, and win7 is not cheap :(

But i cannot understand why span mode isnt available in xp with 2 digital connection,
only when the one is analog (vga)?

I try with older drivers :(
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by Fredz »

I'm not sure, but since there are only two CRTCs in a graphics card I guess the two digital ports could be connected to the first CRTC and the analog port to the second CRTC.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

What is a CRTC?
And why work dvi and hdmi at the same time on ati, without any problem?
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by cybereality »

I have certainly used all manners of dual-display options with an Nvidia card (horizontal span, dual-view, etc.). This worked perfectly fine using 2 CRT monitors and a dual-DVI video card (with 2 DVi>VGA adapters and VGA cables). I was also able to run two LCD panels, in horizontal span mode in XP. This was using the same 2 DVI ports, one DVI cable and one VGA cable (with DVI>VGA adapter). No reason this shouldn't work with 2 DVI cables, or 2 VGA cables. Again, if you buy a real video card you probably wouldn't have this problem. When I said "a low-end card can't cut it" I wasn't referring to gaming performance. I was talking about that they don't usually have the hardware support that mid/high end cards do. In this case, the GeForce 210 can only support dual-monitor if one of the cables comes from the VGA port ( http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=429253&mpage=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). I have no idea why a GTS 450 had choppy playback, it certainly has the specs to support what you are doing. Not that I thought that was a particularly good card, but it seems like it was the cheapest card with dual DVI output (which is what you need). I cannot attest to the performance.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by Fredz »

relaxman wrote:What is a CRTC?
A CRTC is a Cathode Ray Tube Controller, it is a part of a graphics card that connects a video ram segment to a display output. It was first used with CRT monitors/TVs but it's still used for other types of displays (LCD, PDP, DLP, etc.).

It's a legacy of the MC6845 chip introduced by Motorola in 1977/1978, it has been used for several generation of computers (Apple II, Amstrad CPC, BBC, MDA/CGA graphic cards for PC) and its logic is still used in the graphic cards we use today.
relaxman wrote:And why work dvi and hdmi at the same time on ati, without any problem?
I guess not all the graphic cards models allow a CRTC to be connected to any display port, but it may only be a limitation of the driver. On Linux you can specify which CRTC you want to connect to a display port with the xrandr command but I don't know if it's possible under MS Windows.

But even on Linux you can't always connect a CRTC to the port you want as explained here :
http://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/HowToRandR12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Some outputs may also be restricted to some CRTC. xrandr --verbose gives information on which CRTC are available/used for each output. For instance, below, LVDS (ie. internal panel) uses CRTC #0 and may not use any other one. VGA-0 uses none currently and may use #0 or #1."
cybereality wrote:This was using the same 2 DVI ports, one DVI cable and one VGA cable (with DVI>VGA adapter). No reason this shouldn't work with 2 DVI cables, or 2 VGA cables.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in this case I suppose you still had the first CRTC connected to the analog port (VGA) and the second CRTC connected to a digital port (DVI). As I said I don't know if all the graphic cards/drivers allow two digital ports (DVI and HDMI) to be connected to two different CRTCs.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

"if you buy a real video card you probably wouldn't have this problem."
No!
This mode also disappear as i read, even on high end cards: gtx285 for example here
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=91479

Not just he have this issue...
"I just ran into the problem yesterday...the problem is that you are not able to use horizontal span with an HDMI cable. I swapped out to dvi and vga and those both worked, so the problem resides in the dvi->hdmi."

So this is NOT because its a cheap card.

"the GeForce 210 can only support dual-monitor if one of the cables comes from the VGA port "
As i sayed i can run it in dualview mode, so technically horizontal span can't be harder. It's just a driver bug or ugly limit.

"it was the cheapest card with dual DVI output (which is what you need).
Yes, and ati 4350 was also the cheapest from ati, and this one works!

Nvidia+xp+dvi+hdmi at the same time = really bad idea for 3D!

And for why the performance decrease so much in dualview mode and i cannot use it for 3D,
i found this:

"Basically Windows XP doesn't render DirectX very well across two screens.
its fixed in Vista though, so you can Dual-view and still get a good Frame-rate.
The problem is with how DirectX renders over multiple displays.
The bug is fixed in Vista."

So it seems i need win7, but i buyed xp for 3D and dont want to replace to a
more expensive win7.

thanks
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by cybereality »

Ok, maybe its an HDMI issue then. I don't know. But my advice of needing a dual-DVI card is still valid. Also, I am not sure going to Win 7 is going to solve all your problems. I think they redid a lot of how the display driver works in Windows, so there are not all the same multi-monitor options you get on XP. Performance might be better though. Also, if the ATI 4350 works so good, why did you get another card?
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

Because we also have a 120Hz projector, and this card doesnt support dual link dvi.
Gef. 210 support it, and i thinked it also can do dual output without any problem.
But it's not the case.. Now i have 2 choices:
- try win7 with this card
- or go to ati 5450 which is duallink capable, and hope that doesn't have this span mode limitation.

"so there are not all the same multi-monitor options you get on XP"
I don't need so many option, just one, that works smoothly with our dual projectors..
It doesnt matter if its span, dualview, extend desktop, eyefinity or whatever.

cheers
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

I found the official explanation for the slow rendering in dualview mode:
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1106/xpshit.jpg

So this is solved.
The last open quesion is why nvidia disabled span modes when using dvi+hdmi,
when in dualview mode i can use this two output at the same time?

If i cannot solve it tomorrow, i go back to Ati 5450 (without cuda, but with working extend display mode, which was great for 3D in XP)

HNY 2011!
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

So people, i buyed an Ati 5450 1GB ddr3 Card for the problemfree 3D playback
of my 2 HDV videos to 2 Infocus X9 projector polarized setup.

I read here these:
"Eyefinity does not require two cards, just one is enough
but you need an ATi HD5xxx series card"
OK, it's an Ati 5450.

"Having a CPU usage close to the limit is not recommended,
overclocking little the CPU will definitely help "

I even upgrade my 2.5GHz (800fsb) CPU to a 3.2GHz (1066fsb) one.
And guess what happened on xp sp3?

THE PLAYBACK IS WORSE THAN BEFORE!!! :o

- I often see some tearing problems at the lower part of the video in extend mode.
I don't know why, because videos are 50i, projectors and ati drivers both set at 50Hz,
and never had this problem with 4350 card.

- i cannot see Eyefinity in the display mode list, only clone, extend and stretch.
Eyefinity need a special driver? i downloaded only the latest driver+ccc pack.

- the CPU upgrade seems it was useless, video playback still need about 75-80% cpu usage,
with gabest mpeg2 decoders but i thinked it will remain always below 70%,
because of 3.2 vs 2.5 ghz. I don't see any improvement.

Now what can i do? Go back to 4350 and live without 120Hz support?
Or forget XP, because win7 solve all my problem with ati and even with nvidia card?

thx!
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by cybereality »

That card is supposed to support Eyefinity. You're doing something wrong.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

OK, today i try this driverpack:
Package Includes:
Display Driver
OpenCL Driver
ATI Integrated Driver
Catalyst Control Center
(English Language Only)
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

I googled and found this on amd website:
"At least 3 simultaneous, active display outputs, including one DisplayPort™ connector are required to support AMD Eyefinity technology"

So, are you sure it will work with 2 display?
A card with displayport is required? :o

I continue to read: There is no support for Windows® XP. :o :o
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by BlackShark »

The AMD website does not talk about such a Windows XP incompatibility with Eyefinity. (edit : I just found where it says no Windows XP support)
The site says this card does have Eyefinity support though.
The DisplayPort output is only required to plug the 3rd display. On my System the dual projectors are plugged on the DVI outputs, the DP output is plugged on the Zalman monitor via a VGA adapter.

Eyefinity is not labelled as "Eyefinity" in the driver, that's just a brand name for 3-displays gaming.
The feature you are looking for is called Display group, you access it in the Catalyst control centre, on the desktop configuration page where you get the squares representing the desktop with the display icons at the bottom.
Display grouping is enabled by right-clicking on the square representing the desktop (not the display icons like when you extend or clone the display).

At least that's how it works for me on windows 7.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by cybereality »

Ah, yes. Eyefinity is not supported on XP. Seems that AMD is not exactly up-front about this, they could be more forthcoming. So dude, XP is like a decade old, gotta get with the times.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

cybereality wrote:XP is like a decade old, gotta get with the times.
Yes, thanks.
I don't want to spend $150 again for an operating system, when i have the legal XP (in EU we cannot buy upgrade versions). Instead i go back to 4350 :(
But now it seems 5450 also worked for 10 minutes without tearing. I changed some settings in CCC at video section (disable edge enhancement, denoise, dynamic contrast, etc.) Maybe this occured the problem? Because for 2 stream in extended desktop mode, the card is too slow?
I don't know, will test it for longer time, to be sure.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by cybereality »

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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by Likay »

Lol^^
However i still miss some features in displaydrivers of xp that's still missing in win7.... I wouldn't say win7 is overall an enhancement.. :(
But it's true. If an old op-system looses support we're forced to eat next one whether or not it tastes good...
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by cybereality »

Well newer isn't always better. I mean, in a lot of ways CRT was (and still is) better quality than LCD. But you can't live in the past forever. Its also not especially hard or expensive to add an extra hard-drive to your computer and dual-boot.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

The hard drive is of course the cheap one.
Win7 is the expensive. We use this machine only once or twice per month, and only for 1 hour
3D playback, and as i sayed i buyed XP. This is the reason why i don't like to buy a full w7.

"hard-drive to your computer and dual-boot"
Why should i make a dual boot, if i only want one problem free system?
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by cybereality »

Well if you only use it for an hour each month then I can understand. I just looked at the prices and the full Win7 Ultimate is $269. Yeah, that is a bit pricey actually. Though you can get Home Premium for $99, which is a bit more reasonable.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by Likay »

cybereality wrote:Well newer isn't always better. I mean, in a lot of ways CRT was (and still is) better quality than LCD. But you can't live in the past forever. Its also not especially hard or expensive to add an extra hard-drive to your computer and dual-boot.
This is exactly what i did. However it's a mystery why some great functions were left out in a newer op-system.
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by BlackShark »

But isn't Charlton Heston dead ?

Anyways, I agree XP had features that Windows 7 still lacks, I miss the one in particular that allows restarting your network card with a single right-click item.
Passive 3D forever !
DIY polarised dual-projector setup :
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (2D 1080p)
Xtrem Screen Daylight 2.0, for polarized 3D
3D Vision gaming with signal converter : VNS Geobox 501
relaxman
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:07 am
Location: Hungary
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Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

People, i cannot believe what happened with me.
As i wrote, we have a dual projector polarized setup connected
to an Ati 4350 DDR2 card dvi+hdmi. This setup worked well
with xp sp3 and Stereoscopic player, but unfortunatly this
lowprofile Ati doesn't support 120Hz, what i want to use
for 120Hz projector. So i thinked i upgrade the card to an 5450
model, hope that everything will work as before or even better, and
have the 120Hz. But it's not the case!
With the same setup, the same settings, cables, etc. i often have
tearing effect on the bottom of the video frame! Some lines appear
in one video. I tried everything, but cannot set a so stable system,
that was before! Is it possible that ati 5450 is slower in some
aspect than the 4350?
It's gpu frequency is higher and the ram is also better DDR3.
So i cannot believe, this can happened with me!
I want to wake up!! :o

(i try win7 with grouped display option, but cannot set 2560x720, and
with extended desktop setting, i only get black when switch to fullscreen.
don't know why, but again, i dont want to go to w7, if xp was also good
with 4350)

Should i get my old card back? To bad i sell it!
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Likay
Petrif-Eyed
Posts: 2913
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:34 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by Likay »

I'm not following. You use two projectors right? And you also talk about 120Hz + polarization which cunfuses me. Are you trying to run the monitors spanned with 120Hz shutter?
Mb: Asus P5W DH Deluxe
Cpu: C2D E6600
Gb: Nvidia 7900GT + 8800GTX
3D:100" passive projector polarized setup + 22" IZ3D
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relaxman
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:07 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by relaxman »

"I'm not following."
Sorry :)

I wanted to use this machine also on our dual projector setup and also with my single acer 5360.
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Likay
Petrif-Eyed
Posts: 2913
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:34 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by Likay »

Dunno what to do in shuttermode but turning vsync on sometime helps in games for tearing.
Mb: Asus P5W DH Deluxe
Cpu: C2D E6600
Gb: Nvidia 7900GT + 8800GTX
3D:100" passive projector polarized setup + 22" IZ3D
Image
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