Open-Source-OSVR with active participant RAZER

Talk about Head Mounted Displays (HMDs), augmented reality, wearable computing, controller hardware, haptic feedback, motion tracking, and related topics here!
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Dilip
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Open-Source-OSVR with active participant RAZER

Post by Dilip »

More fishes in pond...
http://osvr.com/

See in action here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxeQVBwyh8Y

Disclaimer:I am consumer...i love Multiple Choice Options.


EDIT: Changed header after learning new truths...
Last edited by Dilip on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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martinlandau
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR from RAZOR

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Too many fishes in pond can be bad? Have heard of analysis paralysis? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAWiqdVbq_U I can see us sitting around table with this scenario easily happening ;) Most places I go now, I just take default, I walk into restaurant, I say give me number 1 combo, I go into store, I say give me whatever you think is best, no time left in life to spend it on analyzing all choices, inefficient in ways, but time has become my most valuable asset. The big question to ask, is companies know this, governments know this, they have lots of research, how will they use analysis paralysis of ENTIRE humanity to push our choices in ways we no longer have time to fight? Harrison Bergeron?
The futures so bright, I gotta wear shades!
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR from RAZOR

Post by Dilip »

martinlandau wrote:Too many fishes in pond can be bad?
I was welcoming OpenVR, its nice to have many options to say. you can surely compare them with multi source and user made reviews ( are mostly honest).

Again its still a well kind of a blind fire, but educated guess lands in right place. Why only oculus and why not some one good more or less?

We need the best though...so concept VFM or Value for Money can be applied here. keep your expectation in line with what you spend. Search for best you can.Then accept what you get, unless you can challange and change.. ;)
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR from RAZOR

Post by martinlandau »

I fully support open source VR, has been one of my biggest problems with what happened here at MTBS3D and promised open source projects years ago, yet the trickster in me ALWAYS plays devils advocate, even against myself. the recursive loops start going too deep, and my memory buffers hit limits. Now you think about people like marilu henner,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilu_Henner Only about 30 people on planet earth have been identified with this "superhuman" power, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthymesia Although hyperthymestics are not necessarily autistic, and likewise savants do not necessarily memorise autobiographical information, there are certain similarities between the two conditions. Like autistic savants, some individuals with hyperthymesia may also have an unusual and obsessive interest in dates. Russian psychologist Aleksandr Luria documented the famous case of mnemonist Solomon Shereshevskii,[5] who was quite different from the first documented hyperthymestic known as AJ in that he could memorise virtually unlimited amounts of information deliberately, while AJ could not – she could only remember autobiographical information (and events she had personally seen on the news or read about). In fact, she was not very good at memorising anything at all, according to the study published in Neurocase.[1] Hyperthymestic individuals appear to have poorer than average memory for arbitrary information. Another striking parallel drawn between the two cases was that Shereshevskii exemplified an interesting case of synesthesia[6] and it has been suggested that superior autobiographical memory is intimately tied to time-space synaesthesia.[7]


she can remember everyday of her life, her recursion can go far deeper than mine, so when she finally hits her ultimate answer at the end of the loop, it may return a different result than all my "thinking" so we get various humans with various beliefs about what is REAL, and what is false, http://caseelse.net/wp-content/uploads/ ... nagain.jpg LOL! My mind did not work lie this as much until I became a programmer, but now it is even deeper into these loops than 5 years ago, some call that mental illness, maybe. It has proven effective for letting me see things that others maybe miss. I have psyches talking about putting thier work with me in DSM V (head shrinker book over here in the statess) So we all have these various "truths" and "realities" we believe, some companies are designing algorithms to EXPLOIT our minds, for profit, some are not. wether its for profit or free though, if it changes humanity, should we not debate it? Socrates said the FIRST vr was the allegory of the cave, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVDaSgyi3xE So - crates (bill and ted - LOL) told his students that the written word was DANGEROUS, to not have external memory buffers for our mind, that books, and writing allowed, that we should use our internal memory to pass knowledge in oral histories, that we would become TOO DEPENDENT on books and external knowledge, and it would weaken mankind collectively so much that if the books were ever taken away, or some TYRANT could control access to the books, we would be slaves or perish if we did not submit! The hive mind of the internet is even a greater extension of socrates memes, I have become so addicted to it and dependent upon it, take it away, and I have lost half my brain and memory links easily, facebook got me good! losing access to the forums here was like half my brain got chopped off. People wrote books in socrates days not meaning to do harm, but from socrates perspective, harm was being done, mankind was becoming depending on things outside his mind in some ways, that weakend mankind.

Facebook has great plans for VR, to make us addicted (they may not even see what they are doing is bad, like authors writing books in socrates day, there was no mal intent, but looking at it from the macro scale socrates could see changes that may have been dangerous), just like palmer said on stage, these links elaborate, they are REPROGRAMMING humans worldwide to be addicted to thier business model, hopefully we can offer a seperate solution that is not so much about control, but real freedom, I dont like that people smarter than me are writing algorithms to addict me to things so they can make profit, doesn't that violate all kinds of ethical boundaries? We can do good VR and not have to be drug dealers eyes?

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Rickards said rense was one to listen to, often connecting dots in some ways (I think some of renses stuff is pure insanity, but I think he nails this facebook connection) hillary clinton is on record saying rense is one of the greatest if not the greatest anti-state propogandists ever. Still others claim he posts some truth, but distorts other truth because he is just another plant by cia types, gets confusing for us all to find our unique truths to believe. However, Palmer clearly talks about using our own narcissim against us, the way facebook links talks about I posted at mtbs3d and this video specifically mentions, they are writing algorithms to specifically target these reward centers in our minds to exploit us, a dangerous feedback system between mankind, and machine, that ultimately will enrich them with great power and money.

Jeff Rense & Neil Sanders - Facebook Mind Control

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gdouS8e8yU

When prompted "Tell me about FaceBook and VR.", Palmer replied "... People are narcissists, and they like to share the best parts of their lives with other people, and they like other people to see the incredible lives that they want other people to think they live. ..."

Direct link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtHtcBjkRIw#t=1200

Nice way to think about the common man, eh? But really, he may not be all that far from the truth, from certain predatory points of view.

(thanks to all who keep me informed like journalism heroes pamer (he studied that in college) and niel - you guys and your freedom of the press journalism roots make me proud)

In all your RAH RAH for VR, have you ever decided dilip to take the other view, what are the DANGERS of vr if gone wrong? Can you give me some of your ideas? http://seedmagazine.com/content/article ... ny_aliens/

Lets take socrates viewpoint, what if an asteroid wipes out most of us, what if an EMP pulse wipes out our great tech society? A CME from the sun? What if we do it to ourselves in war, neutron bombs, etc. All humanity alive today can be traced back to 7 mothers, I think 150K years or so ago. So maybe socrates was making a point, that to be ROBUST, for the human network to SURVIVE an attack, internal memory was the best long term solution, where if we are sunk down to 7 humans again from a planet destroying event, thier minds will retain enough knowledge to surive and rebuild again, however I would say most hipsters I meet today, if thrown in that scenario, might perish fairly quickly. This is why Dr. Kaku says we need to get OFF PLANET fast, become a type 1 civilization, because dark forces at any moment can kill us all, and the species dies. (sorry must stop here - buffers overloading again)

The universe is a big place, we have pretty good equipment looking up into space, for dysan sphere, ringworlds, type 1,2,3 civilizations, how come we cant SEE any? Some make the claim even infrared energy would be trapped by the civilizations, they would be that efficient, but it seems to me this fermi paradox is a real issue. So what do you think are bad ways that tech and VR could go wrong? Have you paused to think about it? Some don't think it is worth the time but I do. While I fully support open source vr and am happy as a clam oculus got REAL peeps punching thier guts now, I also always try to look at larger macro issues, why not?
The futures so bright, I gotta wear shades!
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR from RAZOR

Post by Neil »

Hi Guys,

I think it's misleading that OSVR promotes itself as an "open standard" in their materials. In fact, when I interviewed them at CES, they acknowledged that it's not an industry standard (time index 5:18) in the traditional sense:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSwnUsSpB6w

I'm certain that Razer appreciates the difference between open standards and open source. For me, I think it's ok to promote this as an open source platform; it could be viable - we'll see. I don't even care if its revenue generating. However, this isn't an open standard and the steps have yet to be taken to make it qualify as such.

I think it's revealing that their promotional video compares their license to that of Google's Android. Try to launch an Android smartphone without the Google store...see how far you get or what you have to give up. It's not right or wrong, it just is.

Anyways, if there is an interest in open standards in the immersive tech world (and there are all kinds of standards to discuss and develop), here is a press release that also went out during CES:

http://www.marketwired.com/press-releas ... 980170.htm

If you could imagine a table filled with the staunchest competitors sitting together for dinner after CES...now we're talking.

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR from RAZER

Post by Dilip »

Neil wrote:Hi Guys,

I think it's misleading that OSVR promotes itself as an "open standard" in their materials. In fact, when I interviewed them at CES, they acknowledged that it's not an industry standard (time index 5:18) in the traditional sense:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSwnUsSpB6w

I'm certain that Razer appreciates the difference between open standards and open source. For me, I think it's ok to promote this as an open source platform; it could be viable - we'll see. I don't even care if its revenue generating. However, this isn't an open standard and the steps have yet to be taken to make it qualify as such.
VR being in infancy how OVR or Razer or Sony or anyone can set standards for it? Do all these really know standards? There can only be safe known and recommended practices. So i think OSVR are Open in terms of their framework provide opportunity for modular integration with many peripherals in this way they are open. codes are available to download modify and repost also a way of being open. Why you think its open source and not open standard? What is deal in this jargons? Where you draw boundary between open source and open standards? Will you please elaborate? Why you want it to be industry standard? its needs long and proven user and production period before any such thing can exist.

Neil wrote:
Anyways, if there is an interest in open standards in the immersive tech world (and there are all kinds of standards to discuss and develop), here is a press release that also went out during CES:

http://www.marketwired.com/press-releas ... 980170.htm

If you could imagine a table filled with the staunchest competitors sitting together for dinner after CES...now we're talking.

Regards,
Neil
Of course there will be no one who wants monopoly of Oculus, specially now OVR being toy in hands of monetizer monolith FB......Do you want 'VR=Oculus Rift'
its only possible when you are employed at OVR or being directly funded from them.
As consumer we want as many and as diversified products as possible.
Its about diversity and open market so no one can rob your hard earned money or fu*k your brains with compulsory advertizements,while remained funded sufficient for growth and existence.
(Ads in VR is last thing i would ever want to see)

See the nice article about dual element optics here....
http://www.roadtovr.com/sensics-ceo-yuv ... r-headset/

What more proof you want they are open source. Can you show any post where oculus revealed Optics of Crescent Bay...A prototype not even consumer product. Isn't it a nice improvement

See the amazing question Yuval Ask- "How will you correct blurriness in drivers?" i think its impossible to do so.. Dk2 optics are nastily blurry out of sweet spot and around corners is self tested truth. You can check images posted in link too.

I even dislike horrible chromatic aberration present in DK2 lets not talk the blurriness, its there there there.
OSVR dual element tech is really neat and free from all fuzz.... Razer HDK has neat and generation ahead through optics output, its visible proof.
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR with active participant RAZER

Post by Neil »

VR being in infancy how OVR or Razer or Sony or anyone can set standards for it? Do all these really know standards? There can only be safe known and recommended practices. So i think OSVR are Open in terms of their framework provide opportunity for modular integration with many peripherals in this way they are open. codes are available to download modify and repost also a way of being open. Why you think its open source and not open standard? What is deal in this jargons? Where you draw boundary between open source and open standards? Will you please elaborate? Why you want it to be industry standard? its needs long and proven user and production period before any such thing can exist.

First, there are all kinds of standards. It's a misnomer to believe that standards only refer to interoperability or instant industry-wide support. That's just one type of standard out of many. Also, if standards are handled properly, they change with the times based on industry input and technological advances. They shouldn't hold back innovation; not at all.

There are two things being put forward by OSVR: their open source HMD and their HMD software platform. The HMD is just that; people will tinker and do what they will and see where it goes. The software platform is what I'm referring to and is probably what people have been spending the most attention to.

Most of your questions are answered here:

http://uploadvr.com/osvr-may-be-open-so ... f-the-ita/

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/NeilSchneide ... zation.php

In short, open source is a licensing term; it has nothing to do with whether or not something is an open standard. It's not jargon, it just is.

Let me ask you this - and it's just one of countless possible pitfalls:

You're assuming that the hardware and software makers want to just throw their stuff out there for everyone to use. I assure you that anyone and everyone who has invested top dollar in creating IP will not want to just open source it. This is their bread and butter, and even if they make hardware devices that they want to sell, the software is an investment that could make or break their business. The only way around this is to have closed source portions of the code (which Razer's OSVR is prepared for) and to have some kind of royalty model. Who gets these royalties? Who owns the platform? Who ultimately controls what gets in and what stays out? These are all things that can easily be complicated unless the platform is designed to be an open standard and holds up to scrutiny.

While we can all have the best intentions, it's the way an organization is structured that helps determine if it's an open standard and protects us from ourselves. Is it non-profit or a branded collaboration (without a formal structure)? Does everyone have equal voting rights? Does Razer have any influence direct or indirect that can impact the standards result relative to any other participants?

Look at how OSVR came out of the gate. For 18 months they developed this in secret and made a choice on behalf of everyone; that there would be this middleware SDK with plug-ins. That was a choice made without other industry players to determine whether or not it was a viable model. It could be the right one, it may not be. This is something the industry should have gotten together on before, not after the fact. There is a process to things.

I think any type of collaboration is a good thing; OSVR included. I'm hoping people will learn from efforts like this so we can indeed move towards better products and outcomes. I also have every expectation that there will be multiple efforts and forks like this. That's the nature of open source. In fact, we've invited Razer and Sensics to join the alliance so they can contribute what they learn towards open standards. We'll see what they say.

As it stands, this isn't structured to be an open standard.

Of course there will be no one who wants monopoly of Oculus, specially now OVR being toy in hands of monetizer monolith FB......Do you want 'VR=Oculus Rift'
its only possible when you are employed at OVR or being directly funded from them.
As consumer we want as many and as diversified products as possible.
Its about diversity and open market so no one can rob your hard earned money or fu*k your brains with compulsory advertizements,while remained funded sufficient for growth and existence.

I seriously don't know why everyone is so threatened by FB and Oculus. They are a closed platform now. They will have their own controller, their own HMD, their own SDK, and probably through Facebook, their own distribution platform. It's not a war or a fight over territory; they have a platform for themselves. I say let them have it and be successful as they know how.

Our interests aren't locked down to a specific platform, and we are working to encourage viable industry diversity with supportive content, interoperability, strong product development, and revenue.

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR with active participant RAZER

Post by Dilip »

Neil wrote:You're assuming that the hardware and software makers want to just throw their stuff out there for everyone to use.


I would surely believe that if i were 4 young kid believing world is full of saints and fairies. I love to but,no i am not assuming that.

I liked their initiative even partly disclosed and partly held card to chest they are trying some thing different. Sure they want success like Google out of it where royalties and some sort of control mechanism earn them out of it,while most of part remains unobstructed and lure more people to their Eco system.

It still has many potential threat to what you do if your product get exploited and some one else earn out of your hard work against if you go fully closed like OVR. isn't it worth praise. If its more open there will be more chances of faster growth like we witnessed with Android. Could android be so popular if Google hadn't chosen to make what it is today. Google also earn like anything and we have nice product in hands 'limited edition Every one wins', isn't it?
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR with active participant RAZER

Post by Neil »

Dilip wrote:
Neil wrote:You're assuming that the hardware and software makers want to just throw their stuff out there for everyone to use.

I would surely believe that if i were 4 young kid believing world is full of saints and fairies. I love to but,no i am not assuming that.

I liked their initiative even partly disclosed and partly held card to chest they are trying some thing different. Sure they want success like Google out of it where royalties and some sort of control mechanism earn them out of it,while most of part remains unobstructed and lure more people to their Eco system.

It still has many potential threat to what you do if your product get exploited and some one else earn out of your hard work against if you go fully closed like OVR. isn't it worth praise. If its more open there will be more chances of faster growth like we witnessed with Android. Could android be so popular if Google hadn't chosen to make what it is today. Google also earn like anything and we have nice product in hands 'limited edition Every one wins', isn't it?
Hey Dilip,

I'm not trying to butcher the initiative; all forms of collaboration are good for the industry at large. It's just that when we are talking about "open standards", there are comparables, responsibilities, and expectations that go with it. This isn't about angels and fairies or API sainthood - there are standards for standards. :D

There isn't anything new or romantic with the OSVR platform in that others have tried this kind of thing before in other markets (and to an extent in VR as well; there have been other open source efforts!). The only real difference is that OSVR is going out of its way to position this as an open standard when it's not.

Look at organizations like The Khronos Group and VESA. These are open standards organizations with rich histories. I assure you that you won't find anyone floating in the air with fairy dust at Khronos meetings. Well, if you do...let me know. I've gotta see this! :lol:

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR with active participant RAZER

Post by Dilip »

I understand your point as though OSVR is Open source they should not advertise them selves to be Open standards. There are really few who can differentiate between two. My point was OSVR can be nice competitive add on to VR Market with Hmd Experienced Sensics and peripheral specialist like Razer come up with good product its worth support. Razer made HDK has received good reviews for distortion and blur free but was falling back on tracking and demo front. These areas are not impossible to cover up. i am expecting better product in June 2015 when first kits roll out market. Sensics already have dSight hmd with "outside in" tracking same IR tracking DK2 uses as positional. Sensics being member in OSVR i am expecting positional tracking sooner or later. I am agree though OSVR should not do false advertising about Open Standards.

Thanks for your uploadvr and gamasutra article links, loved reading them :)
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR with active participant RAZER

Post by Neil »

Exactly! You got it.

By the way, I don't know if I mentioned this, but the Vireio Perception team will be supporting OSVR's platform as soon as it's available. They are supposed to be sending us HMD units to test with which we are looking forward to.

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR with active participant RAZER

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Good news. Vireio is by far most active updated working VR middleware.
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR with active participant RAZER

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Sourced from the Khronos.org site:
KhronosITA2015.jpg
I don't know about you, but if you're into open standards and the process behind open standards, I think this is pretty darned cool.

Regards,
Neil
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Re: Open-Source-OSVR with active participant RAZER

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:)
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