Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Talk about Head Mounted Displays (HMDs), augmented reality, wearable computing, controller hardware, haptic feedback, motion tracking, and related topics here!
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Mokibi
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Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

1.in a oculus article, on dk2, I read that the rift MAY or MAY NOT need the camera that tracks the IR on the headset itself….
I was curious, have they found another solution for translation? (was that the issue with 6dof?)…. Is that why they say maybe or maybe not?
2. I’m thinking of purchasing the DK2, but in another article and even by a guy during an interview, said that it wouldn’t be wise to purchase this unless you were getting paid to develop games….. I’m curious, since I’m no designer, does this mean high levels of programming is required to run the dk2 on a pc/whatever other platform? Or could I somehow make it by with little knowledge of coding? Thoughts?
3. WHY THE screw IS THE SIXENSE STEM TRACKERS SO EFFING EXPENSIVE!??!!!!??

4. Whats the difference between sixense a/c controls and the rifts 6dof tracking? It drifts right? Were there any solutions to this problem?

More later! gnite!
Mokibi
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

heres another one,......

I mean I'm sure they would have done it already but, ....

The size of the rift couldn't be made smaller right? it has to do with the lens and the distance from the eyes to the
screeen right? Otherwise you'd need a much stronger screen (14k?) right? theres no way to add depth using a software program right?
(or to "push" the image forwards (or back)) so that you still get that immersive sensation right?

let me know pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaseeeeeeeeeee
Mokibi
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

Heres another one.....

In this video, the dude is able to move back and forth, and although its not great tracking, he's still able to move forwards and backwartds...... that being said...

I was curious, is this whats meant by translation? why is he able to move back and forth and yet there seems to be trouble with the rift dk2 with it? or is it still in the air...... not needing those IR points on the rift? Even the morpheus has that "dot" tracking (or w/e its called)

HELP MEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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cybereality
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by cybereality »

The DK2 uses a camera and LED markers to tracker your position. It is fairly precise and can handle most movements possible in a seated position (lean forward, back, left or right). If the camera can't see you, then it tracks using the IMU similar to DK1. It is a "Development Kit" intended for developers, but we don't stop anyone from buying it. If you are an advanced PC user you can probably figure things out, it's just not meant for average consumers. I have no idea why Sixense is expensive.
Mokibi
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

so what about translation? and that quote "the dk2 might not need the camera to track fully" poop, I forgot where I read this..... it was recent though, maybe like 2 days ago..... but... so did the team fix that problem?

so what about sixense vs. the dk2 motion trackers? (IMU's?) I can see why its more expensive but... did the dk2 figure out the solution to drift? I mean I sorta have a solution, but it involves building something.....

damn it, I really want the dk2, but if its gonna be impossible to use, whats the point D:..... oooh wait a second, I just got a great idea! thanks Cyber!

oh poop, I didnt include a link to that video I mentioned earlier.....

here you go!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tW1bKC6JTI#t=113
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cybereality
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by cybereality »

The tracking on DK2 (position and orientation) is a lot better than you get with the Razer Hydra. I have not tried the STEM yet, so I don't know how much it has improved (if at all). However, the STEM tracks wirelessly and with no occlusion issues, so it can work even if you are facing the other way.
Mokibi
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

ahhhh,..... so the sixense is inferior to the tracking system the rift uses? Wonderful!

I really hate that price tag,.....

what would you pay for a simple body tracking unit? 100$? (for 5 trackers) think 20$ per tracker is possible?
I mean its just the accelerometer, magnetometer and compass.... how expensive could that be? I know, I know, I'll look it up lol....

I remember reading a while back, some guy made a 6dof using a wii controller and..... something else, for 35$..... now THATS reasonable...

wonderful, now I can't find the article =.=.....

where else are the accelo, magnet, and compass found? In current gen phones? maybe last gen?

also, do the ps4/x1/ps3/x360 controllers have rifts 6dof? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

whats occlusion?

thats all for tonight.... Thanks cyber!
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V8Griff
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by V8Griff »

Mokibi wrote: ahhhh,..... so the sixense is inferior to the tracking system the rift uses? Wonderful!

I really hate that price tag,.....

what would you pay for a simple body tracking unit? 100$? (for 5 trackers) think 20$ per tracker is possible?
I mean its just the accelerometer, magnetometer and compass.... how expensive could that be? I know, I know, I'll look it up lol....
Your first statement isn't strictly correct, The two technologies are different and you're misunderstanding what Cyber is telling you.

The Sixense STEM uses magnetic tracking technology, which in it's ultimate form is much more accurate than the solid state gyros, accelerometers and compasses used by the Rift and phones. However it is much more expensive as professional units start at $5k+ So in real terms the STEM system is actually a reasonable price for the technology, but as Cyber says it needs to work much better than the Hydra that preceded it.

STEM works this way:
The base unit has a large magnetic coil inside that generates a magnetic field for X,Y & Z. (Known as the Source)
The sensors in the small STEM units move around in that field and their positions are calculated in both translation and position. (ie Pitch, roll & Yaw and X, Y & Z. Referred to as 6 Degrees Of Freedom (6DOF) )

As the base unit is in a fixed location it should be more accurate as the position of the source is fixed.

The previous commercially available tracker using this technology is the Razer Hydra and that suffered from a number of issues mainly down to the fact that it used old technology from the 1980's and was built to hit a price point rather than a quality level of performance.

The STEM uses newer technology and as a result should be better, but as no-one (outside of Sixense) has really had a chance to use them how much better they are than the Hydra is unknown. (That is what Cyber was referring to)
Mokibi wrote:
where else are the accelo, magnet, and compass found? In current gen phones? maybe last gen?

also, do the ps4/x1/ps3/x360 controllers have rifts 6dof? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
The solid state tracker is much cheaper as it has benefited from being widely used in mobile phones so as they're made by the millions so as a result they have become much cheaper. The disadvantage of these trackers though is that they do not do positional tracking very well (if at all) and that's why the DK1 Rift only had translational tracking and not positional tracking. So you could look up and down, left and right and roll your head but not duck down or lean forward for example. That's why the DK2 has the camera and LEDs

They do have issues with drift and other placement inaccuracies though and how well they work depends on the design of the board that they are mounted on, firmware and the implementation software. Oculus made a very good job of that.

As far as I'm aware those controllers that don't use LEDs and cameras use the same chips.
Mokibi wrote: whats occlusion?
Occulsion is essentially the creation of a 'blank space' where the sensor cannot send it's location back to the tracker as something blocking it's line of sight.

So in the case of the DK2 tracking if you turn your head completely away from the camera tracking the HMD the camera will not be able to see your location and it will 'lose' your position.

Neither the STEM or Gyro tracking systems require 'line of sight' so they do not suffer from occlusion.

Hope that helps?
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

V8Griff thanks a bunch! :)

I read in an article that the team at oculus was getting rid of the drift in the dk2.... is that true?
also..... so you NEED that camera to track position? I thought translation was being achieved by the motion sensors no?
What solutions do they have in mind for this problemo?

"Neither the STEM or Gyro tracking systems require 'line of sight' so they do not suffer from occlusion."

Gyro tracking systems? the rift or?

Also I heard the Morpheus is trying to go wireless....... any thoughts on that? is it possible?

It's late, but let me know!

I'm currently trying to animate character models in unity.... but I just started xD wish me luck!

gnite!
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V8Griff
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by V8Griff »

Mokibi wrote:V8Griff thanks a bunch! :)

I read in an article that the team at oculus was getting rid of the drift in the dk2.... is that true?
also..... so you NEED that camera to track position? I thought translation was being achieved by the motion sensors no?
What solutions do they have in mind for this problemo?
No problem.

As above positional tracking and translational tracking are being dealt with by two different solutions in the Rift.
Positional X,Y & Z are being dealt with by the optical/camera system. Translational is still (as in DK1) being dealt with by the gyros.
Mokibi wrote: "Neither the STEM or Gyro tracking systems require 'line of sight' so they do not suffer from occlusion."

Gyro tracking systems? the rift or?
Gyro tracking for translational tracking in the Rift
Mokibi wrote: Also I heard the Morpheus is trying to go wireless....... any thoughts on that? is it possible?
Potentially possible. Several people have done wireless Rift experiments on here that seem to work. As always using wireless potentially introduces latency (the enemy of great VR) into the system so that needs to be dealt with
Mokibi wrote: I'm currently trying to animate character models in unity.... but I just started xD wish me luck!

gnite!
Good luck on that, it does seem complex.
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

"As above positional tracking and translational tracking are being dealt with by two different solutions in the Rift.
Positional X,Y & Z are being dealt with by the optical/camera system"

so... position is the problem? I thought that was taken care of by the rifts motion sensors no?
I kinda have a solution for that but... I think anyways.... but I dont want to jump to conclusions.....

"As always using wireless potentially introduces latency (the enemy of great VR) into the system so that needs to be dealt with"

Whats that mean? potentially? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

THANKS A BUNCH V8!!!!!!
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V8Griff
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by V8Griff »

Mokibi wrote:"As above positional tracking and translational tracking are being dealt with by two different solutions in the Rift.
Positional X,Y & Z are being dealt with by the optical/camera system"

so... position is the problem? I thought that was taken care of by the rifts motion sensors no?
I kinda have a solution for that but... I think anyways.... but I dont want to jump to conclusions.....
Yes positional is the issue. Positional tracking was missing from DK1, which is why they've added the camera to DK2
Mokibi wrote:
"As always using wireless potentially introduces latency (the enemy of great VR) into the system so that needs to be dealt with"

Whats that mean? potentially? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
By potentially I meant that by using wireless you're going to add latency. But 'potentially' I'm sure there are or will be solutions that reduce that to an acceptablele level,
although I think it's likely to remain an issue.
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

hey V8 and cyber, I was curious....

Why is translation a problem for tracking movements? are there people working on it without the cameras?
why don't the magnetometer, accelo, and compass do the trick themselves?

I definitely don't know why, some clarification would be super useful ^__^

Sank yu!
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

also, how much would you say that combination would cost? less than 60$? (hopefully?)
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V8Griff
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by V8Griff »

Mokibi wrote:hey V8 and cyber, I was curious....

Why is translation a problem for tracking movements? are there people working on it without the cameras?
why don't the magnetometer, accelo, and compass do the trick themselves?

I definitely don't know why, some clarification would be super useful ^__^

Sank yu!
Translational isn't the issue, the DK1 rift already does that via the installed tracker.

Positional is the hard one to solve cheaply and that is what the camera is for.

The DK2 is $50 more than DK1 and I believe that is because of teh cost of teh tracking camera, so a reasonably affordable solution but it still has 'issues' as mentioned in the earlier answers.
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Fredz »

Mokibi wrote:Why is translation a problem for tracking movements? are there people working on it without the cameras? why don't the magnetometer, accelo, and compass do the trick themselves?
Because the positional data is calculated from a double integration of the accelerometer data, which is extremely sensitive to noise and drifts by several meters after a few seconds.

Positional tracking solutions include magnetic trackers (Razer Hydra, STEM, expensive pro solutions), UWB (see the project from Krenzo here) and optical (DK2), but they all have drawbacks. Magnetic solutions at an affordable price suffer from bad accuracy, latency and limited range. Optical solutions suffer from line of sight issues but looking at the DK2 and the Morpheus project it seems to be the best choice for now.
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by MSat »

There is some confusion regarding the terms being used. "Translational" and "positional" are generally the same thing, and refer to the location of a point in 3D space, whereas orientation (which V8Griff has been referring to incorrectly as "translational") describes the pitch, roll and yaw of that "point" (afaik, points in geometry don't actually contain orientation information, but I think you understand what I'm getting at).
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by V8Griff »

MSat wrote:There is some confusion regarding the terms being used. "Translational" and "positional" are generally the same thing, and refer to the location of a point in 3D space, whereas orientation (which V8Griff has been referring to incorrectly as "translational") describes the pitch, roll and yaw of that "point" (afaik, points in geometry don't actually contain orientation information, but I think you understand what I'm getting at).
I was told a long time ago by a programmer at Virtuality that Translational and Positional were different and that the translation of a point was it's orientation, so in my thinking Translation and Orientation were the terms that were interchangeable. No one has suggested that was incorrect before.

Because of that I've always referred to translation as the pitch, roll and yaw of a point in 3D space, with the positional being the X,Y and Z so I've been consistent in my explanations but if that's not correct I'll just use the terms orientation and positional in future.

Always learning. :)
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by MSat »

V8Griff wrote:
MSat wrote:There is some confusion regarding the terms being used. "Translational" and "positional" are generally the same thing, and refer to the location of a point in 3D space, whereas orientation (which V8Griff has been referring to incorrectly as "translational") describes the pitch, roll and yaw of that "point" (afaik, points in geometry don't actually contain orientation information, but I think you understand what I'm getting at).
I was told a long time ago by a programmer at Virtuality that Translational and Positional were different and that the translation of a point was it's orientation, so in my thinking Translation and Orientation were the terms that were interchangeable. No one has suggested that was incorrect before.

Because of that I've always referred to translation as the pitch, roll and yaw of a point in 3D space, with the positional being the X,Y and Z so I've been consistent in my explanations but if that's not correct I'll just use the terms orientation and positional in future.

Always learning. :)
The first time you said it, I just figured you accidentally mixed it up. You were indeed consistent with use of the term and you were right on point with everything except that one measly word. I just felt it was worth pointing out for your sake and mokibi's to avoid potential confusion in this and future discussions. No biggie, and no harm done. I definitely wasn't trying to come off as something like a spelling/grammar nazi :)
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

Ok so....

I forgot where I read it but....
I think there was mention of drift occuring after 40 minutes while using the rift?
wouldn't it be easier to shut off the unit then turn it on? I mean if there weren't a thousand steps in between....

and you also said after a few seconds there is drift... is it BAD? or could you play lets say for 20 mins without having to shut off the unit? as irritating as it would be?

how much would you say the three trackers (with the 20 min reset being a possibility) cost?
this might be pushing it, but could you buy it for 15$? I know... sounds crazy...

Do you wanna build a snowman? lol (frozen)

thanks guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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cybereality
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by cybereality »

The drift most people talk about was early on, before the Rift SDK was using the magnetometer for correction.

Currently it is much improved and is no longer a major problem.

With DK2 and the optical tracking it should be a thing of the past.
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by V8Griff »

MSat wrote:The first time you said it, I just figured you accidentally mixed it up. You were indeed consistent with use of the term and you were right on point with everything except that one measly word. I just felt it was worth pointing out for your sake and mokibi's to avoid potential confusion in this and future discussions. No biggie, and no harm done. I definitely wasn't trying to come off as something like a spelling/grammar nazi :)
No worries and no offence taken. You corrected me politely which made me go and do a bit of research which confirmed your assertion. I want my terminology to be correct, because as you say it ensures we're all talking the same language without confusion.
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

cybereality wrote:The drift most people talk about was early on, before the Rift SDK was using the magnetometer for correction.

Currently it is much improved and is no longer a major problem.

With DK2 and the optical tracking it should be a thing of the past.
lol ok so what then would you say is the time before the drift becomes noticeable?
and without the camera....?

thanks so much cyber, youre an awesome dude!

Question though.... what do you think about FB aquiring Oculus?
good? bad? you think theyre gonna mess up the projects oculus is currently working on?
think theyre gonna bury VR? or is there a possibility that it isn't such a bad thing?
maybe I'm making out to be better than what I should rather assume but......

I guess I like the glass half full lol......

thanks again, more questions later!
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cybereality
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by cybereality »

@Mokibi: I don't think there is a set time period when it will start drifting. In perfect conditions, there should not be an major drift. Sometimes it may drift a few degrees, but then it will gradually recenter by itself. You would only really notice this is cockpit type games (ie space sims) but usually it's too brief to be a problem.

I think the FB thing will be good. Certainly it gives Oculus more resources to do what we want to do. I don't think they are going to screw it up. I sure hope not, at least.
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

@ Cyber

Dood, I dont wanna jump to conclusions but......

that non drift.... we were talking about a wireless headset right? =X

Right? =[
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by cybereality »

I don't know where you would get a "wireless headset" from what I said. I don't think I implied anything like that.
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

I was talking about wireless headsets.....
I think maybe we lost track of that....

regardless of which....
so how bad is the drift then on a wireless unit?

I think earlier in the posts someone mentioned that wireless presents more problems....

that still true then, even with the improvements made to the trackers?
have any links to any independant projects with wireless headsets?

thanks a bunch! sorry for the confusion =(
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by cybereality »

Being wireless would not effect drift at all. However, it would likely add latency (lag) to the tracking.
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Re: Just a few questions.... more to come later.... :)

Post by Mokibi »

how would it do that?
How bad would the lag be?

now Imma go back to an earlier question.... cause I think I'm confused.....

Going wireless, I imagine the ability to move around your room being able to jump and duck and move however people move (or want to move) but the morpheus and the rift both have cameras.....

is it because being able to move around is currently impossible? (or till they find a solution to it)
or is it not being done because it's dangerous?

What term is used to describe this problem?
was it translation or?....

Yep, I think i'm confused.......

the morpheus going wireless though, so is the solution closer than we think?

ugh, god damn it!
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