From the Sony HMZ-T2 to the Carl Zeiss Cinematizer OLED ?

[orbbu]

Hello,

I have currently an HMZ-T2, and I want to sell it as I have the following problems with it :
- It is heavy and quite uncomfortable, watching a 3 hour movie is a pain.
- The image is blurry on the sides, and hard to calibrate to have a crisp image

I'm interested in the Cinematizer OLED, and have a few questions about it :
- I wear glasses (Myopia, -2 for each eye), will I'll be able to use it without my glasses ?
- Is it comfortable ?
- Is the image sharp everywhere on the screen ?
- Is the image quality as good as the T2, which I find perfect (in term of colors, contrast, reactivity ect.)
- What are the drawbacks of the Cinematizer VS the T2 ?

My utilization is watching 2D and 3D movies, playing 2D and 3D games, no VR.

Thanks in advance

[3dpmaster]

Carl Zeiss OLED is better than the Sony's. However, the resolution and FOV are a bit lower than the Sony's (870 × 500 pixels).
But you'll get more because the lenses are from Carl Zeiss and the OLED is more generous in video inputs and optics: usb, hdmi, AV cable and (VERY IMPORTANT) diopter adjusting optics.

Here are some comparison specs:

Fov OLED: 30 deg
Fov Sony: 45 deg

IPD OLED: 60mm to 70mm
IPD Sony: 55mm to 72mm

Diopter OLED: +2 to -5 diopter (no glasses need)
Diopter Sony: NO diopter adjusting optics! (if you wear glasses, you have to wear it WITH the hmd)

Weight OLED: 120 grams
Weight Sony: 330 grams

If you go for FOV and resolution, go for Sony.
If you go for optical quality and comfort, go for an OLED.

I bought the Sony HMD because I need some cheap 720p microdisplays

[orbbu]

Thanks for your reply

Do you have the Cinematizer ? I have a few more questions :

- Is the virtual screen big enough ? some people compared it to holding an iPhone in front of your head, which don't seems that great -.-

- Is the resolution good enough ? I don't see pixelisation with the T2 even if it is only 720p, I was wandering if the Cinematizer is too pixelated.

[3dpmaster]

Thanks for your reply

Do you have the Cinematizer ? I have a few more questions :

- Is the virtual screen big enough ? some people compared it to holding an iPhone in front of your head, which don't seems that great -.-

- Is the resolution good enough ? I don't see pixelisation with the T2 even if it is only 720p, I was wandering if the Cinematizer is too pixelated.

[3dpmaster]

Thanks for your reply

Do you have the Cinematizer ? I have a few more questions :

- Is the virtual screen big enough ? some people compared it to holding an iPhone in front of your head, which don't seems that great -.-

- Is the resolution good enough ? I don't see pixelisation with the T2 even if it is only 720p, I was wandering if the Cinematizer is too pixelated.

I do not have the Cinematizer OLED but the Sony HMD, my only and first hmd.
First, something about the virtual screen: even if the screen size is not that big, the viewing experience is still different. It seems like looking at a large screen on a very large distance and you do not really look at a pc monitor closeby. The focus is set to infinity.
The pixelization depends on the scale of the virtual screen. I think the OLED has no pixelization because the screen is smaller.

Something about the Iphone in front of the head. Yes infact, the screen size is not that big but the distance between the cellphone and the head is something like 2,5 inch.

[orbbu]

OK thanks ^^

Can anyone that have the Cinematizer tell me what he thinks about it ? The build quality, and the overall experience ? Especially if you have tryed the HMZ and can compare.

I think I'll buy it if I manage to sell my T2.

[Thegameveda]

Hi I own the HMZT series , the smd ST1080 and the Cinemizer OLED with headtracker .. I have been reviewing /using it for several months find out everything you need to know from my ongoing review at thegameveda direct link here http://the-games-veda.blogspot.co.uk/se ... zer%20OLED

in moving from the hmzt to the Cinemizer OLED you will move from a hmd you use sometimes and in a stationary position , to one you can carry with you anywhere , power from a USB lead with the clearest OLED display at this point in the evolution of the consumer hmd. Add in headtracking and you are onto a winner

I have been using hmds for around 2 years now , check out my ongoing adventures on my blog

re the FOV .. you know what matters is that the FOV is 100 percent clear . It is like sitting in front of a 40 inch display ( which is around 20 or so greater than the largest laptop display) .

and as for comfort , there is no more comfortable hmd on the market , I use it daily .

Eventually we will have higher res panels , but right now this is where it's at for hmds. Also check out the smd ST1080 you will find a detailed review on my blog of that too..

[Direlight]

If you want a large movie style screen that is immersive, take a look at curved projector setups.

Laser pico projectors could even be used as a HMD, just projecting onto a wall covered in construction paper or actual screen material(assuming it does not blur). Found an LED one only .8 pounds.

AAXA KP400-01 P3 Pico Pocket Projector

[greenith]

Hi

I was also in the same boat. I owned a HMZ-T1 and wanted to know how good the Zeiss OLED was, so i ended up buying one off ebay for a decent price.

After looking at other people opinons (gameveda especially as he has quite the experience), i can confirm that the Zeiss OLED is quite comfortable and portable. It does feel like a 40 inch screen as they say. The FOV however is lower than the HMZ's, as well as the picture quality (though with the HMZ's, you do have the fiddle around quite alot to get it).

Overall, the look and FOV of the HMZ's trump the Zeiss OLED, but the comfort and portability of Zeiss OLED are well above the HMZ's. If you have the time and patience to configure, take apart, mod you HMZ, I would recommend the HMZ over the Zeiss, but for out of the box experience, you will most likley use the Zeiss OLED more often than you HMZ.

Cheers

[brantlew]

Here is an interesting review of the Cinemizer...

http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/ ... ahead-of-i

[Thegameveda]

the op is about transitioning from the HMZT 2 to the Zeiss Cinemizer OLED + headtracker .. it really is not fair on Oculus VR to compare their prototypes to commercially available products from companies like Sony and Zeiss. These are very different devices.

The Rift cannot be used for 2D work , desktop work or 3D film viewing ( I mean quality) . And if you are coming from the glory of OLED you will be sorely disappointed , even if you could get one of the two semi 1080p prototypes. Childish comments like this make you worry for the future of the Rift .. Your HMZT 2 gives a comparable FOV to the Rift for many more applications and at a higher resolution. However as the OP noted there are usage issues and limitations.

Currently there is no finer head tracker than the Zeiss headtracker and no finer all round usable commercial hmd than the Cinemizer OLED . I just returned from a gaming festival in the UK where 20000 real gamers got to use it and I got to observe their reactions. Their reactions to using the Rift and the Cinemizer..

In the real world of HMD development where I find myself thanks in the smallest of parts to people like Brantlew, who has very interesting opinions re the contribution of African American and Indian tech bloggers (just Google around) to the hmd scene , there exists a very professional relationship between rival hmd companies.

Sadly trolls get in the way sometimes , but in their continuous attempts to discredit , Brantlew and several thousand Rift trolls / biased press actually give credibility..to the people and devices they try to rubbish often without even trying them.

the review on Penny Arcade is nonsense, but expected , so few people are aware of where hmd tech is going and where it is at or how it works. Or indeed it's current and future limits. This takes experience. But when you get to use the Cinemizer for yourself you will see as are an increasing number of consumers , without having to take my word or that of clearly biased press. Come on Penny Arcade.. ?

How do I know it was nonsense because I was there at E3 when they came to try the Cinemizer . Here is another from a more balanced individual note the difference in comments. http://youtu.be/raD1w-NqlgQ The guy who made this video arrived shortly before Penny Arcade. Oh and did you know at E3 biased press often turn their badges around to hide their identities ..E3 etiquette Rocks! But if you know your gaming you know who is who... Thanks to Brantlew I will be responding to Penny Arcade on their site when I have time.

So now I work with game developers , hmd developers of all kinds and get to evangelize the whole HMD and VR field. I met young Angel Eyes and the rest of the O Team at E3 earlier this year , Palmer came to see us, I went to see him , he knew who I was ,took the time to send a minion to find a sharpy to sign my day 1 Oculus VR backer T shirt and he owns a Cinemizer OLED too.. I was wearing a Cinemizer OLED shirt at the time ...so if it's good enough for him ? Though I don't think he has a headtracker yet from prior comments as Brantlew can attest. Over the 3 days of E3 we met practically everyone on the Oculus team and Palmer came to discuss the future of VR with us , although I was too busy showing KillZone 3 on PS3 in OLED 3D working with Zeiss headtracking to a Sony Executive down stairs in a private room.. but we'll meet again!

I just got back from another show with real gamers playing at length using the Cinemizer OLED hmd and headtracker , meeting another Oculus rep ( really nice guy came to see me with a ..wait I can't tell you) , in the real world of HMD development there is a very professional friendly rivalry with great respect for everyone who is attempting to pioneer VR and take HMD use to the masses , beyond forums like this and beyond 4 minute reviews. You cannot hope to review a HMD in 4 minutes at a show and you cannot review a prototype as final a product who no one including the developers has experienced.. This is why the third part of my Rift review is held back as I actually intend to do the thing justice..clinically .. hyperbole and promises of future breakthroughs do not change the unique problems each HMD manufacturer's design suffers from And Oculus VR with their $300 price point need critical feedback most of all on this. This is relevant to the opening point as the Sony HMZT series promised much , but the experience falls far short of a device you can comfortably use .. in a multitude of usage scenarios :

here for instance is one of the coolest reasons for owning a Cinemizer OLED or smd ST1080 now http://youtu.be/fa6DrARzP74

I have been using the Cinemizer OLED for around 12 months , the headtracker for around 9 months . The HMZT series for around 2 years , the smd ST11080 for almost as long and the Rift for around 5 months being a day 1 backer , so if you want a detailed real review that bares relevance to taking the hmd forward .. You might have notice on MTBS3D , that Oculus owners and developers are now using mouse emulation , TriDef and waking up to the Zeiss headtracker all of which as Palmer would tell you I argued the use of around the time I first contacted him as a backer of the Rift.

Did I expect what followed? No but here I am actually involved in this field .. like I said before sometimes I find myself ahead of the curve when it comes to HMDS, this does not always make me popular, but lately it is getting respect from people who matter .. the public who are going to be paying for these devices long after the crowd sourcing and angel funding dries up... I guess some people find that threatening ...or take it personally...

So Brantlew ..adieu ..I have work to do moving HMD usage, gaming and hardware development forward, carry on trolling old bean... we all make our small contribution in our own way after all...

[WiredEarp]

Unfortunately, I find it hard to believe most of what you say, Thegameveda.

The reason for this is mainly because you say such obviously incorrect things, such as:

Your HMZT 2 gives a comparable FOV to the Rift for many more applications and at a higher resolution.

51 degrees isn't exactly comparable to 90+ degrees. One is simply video glasses, one is a VR HMD.

Your bias (and the fact you seem more interested in dropping names than facts), along with your tired claims of racism, make most of your opinions worthless, at least to me.

[usb247]

In the interest of full disclosure thgameveda are you affiliated in any way with Zeiss?

Not that I dont trust your comparisons but would be nice to know before I go drop $1000 on a cinemizer.
Also curious since you mentioned that you were seen wearing a Cinemizer T-shirt.

[Thegameveda]

Fascinating , first getting to the OP currently the Cinemizer

OLED and headtracker is the HMD you will be able to use most readily in the widest of usage scenarios.

You can wait spend a $1000 on rival tech ( a HMZT 3) or $300 on a prototype dev kit revision 1 of 2 , but they will not serve your usage scenarios the way the Cinimizer can. That's what I know from owning all these HMDS..

@ WiredEarp I made that comment re FOV deliberately , because people are often misled about HMD fovs .I admit I was baiting your reply. When using HMDs including the Rift, there is a claimed FOV and an actual FOV, further the software you use can change the actual FOV, reducing it to the point where it is actually less than a rivals claimed FOV.. How actual FOVs are experienced and arrived at is a complex issue.I have begun to cover this on my blog through experience and not hypothesis or nonsense maths. So let's talk about this in lay terms say screen size which is how the great public outside the enlightened pages of MTBS3D tend to talk about these things ..again I know this through testing them on thousands of subjects...none of whom work for me I might add!

So if we take the example of the HMZT2 with it's 750 inch screen ( correct me at your leisure ) displaying Ace Combat Assault
Horizon in OLED 3D using TriDef over under and compare it to the Oculus Rift running Tridef 3D Beta DX9 sbs 3D Ace Combat
I am using this game to search for roots of Rift Nausea by the way , but here we can use it to explain actual vs claimed FOVs..

The game working the Rift actually produces a flat screen that equates to around a 60 inch plasma ergo your actual FOV when using the game on the Rift is less than on the HMZT 2. But don't take my word for it

Take a HMZT 2 and play the following video in over under /tb 3D This is a true 1080p res FRAPS recording, played using the Cinemizer but also viewable on the HMZT2

http://youtu.be/tZeLL6LBmuw

Take a Rift (semi"720p" semi "1080p" if you managed to knock one up on a 3D printer) and play the following Ace Combat video which is a capture of a session on the Rift

http://youtu.be/uiRl3dN45KU

You should see the HMZT2 indeed can produce the same or larger actual FOV than the Rifts claimed FOV . Therefore claimed FOV does not equal actual experienced FOV depending on your game. I cover this in much more detail in coming articles. There are many games warped and non warped that cannot be played with the full claimed FOV of the Rift. Even if you could stretch them out it becomes visual nonsense at this res and on this LCD.

However in ref to the OP if you take a Cinemizer OLED and now play the first video, you will see a far clearer image corner to corner , with 0 pixels visible and 0 nausea whilst playing. The Cinemizer is the first hmd ,sorry second hmd , counting the smd ST1080 i can play completely nausea free on.Why is one of things I am attempting to study comparing all these devices.

The 3D is also more prominent. The reasons for this include the pixel size and density , 7 times that of an Apple Retina display.Zeiss got the clinical aspects of HMD design right . I cover this in detail why and how on my blog through use over a year of time.

This topic with all due respect is about transitioning from the HMZT series to the Cinemizer OLED series , something which I did and experienced myself. So those of us who have this experience have something to offer the OP, Rift trolls , or Rift Taggers .. carry on .. as you were..

Second on the points re racism which you bring up I see baiting me , I will stand up every time I see it or perceive it.If members of MTBS3D low to high continue to have issues with racism on these forums I suggest they deal with it instead of trying to march over it under a new troll army stampede. This is 2013 not the middle ages so your stance on the subject is frankly of no consequence nor will it stop those who perceive prejudice online from seeking reparation..that includes members of MTBS3D People on this forum need to be more respectful of different opinions, without referring or linking race to such. I am here as probably one of the most experienced HMD users of recent times offering some advice to the OP. Why are you here?I am not here as troll fodder for Brantlew who follows me everywhere..dude I don't need an R2 unit... Eventually if this sort of thing is endemic on MTBS3D and I don't know I am starting to think it is, then MTSB3D may end up standing for Meant To Be Shut Down 3D ... I will not tolerate it from any one, including it's defense by members of this forum however
high and mighty they or you think they are..and I can name check Palmer Luckey on that just ask him.. you will also find we made up dude so get over it..

It is fascinating how the real world of HMD dev is so much more mature than the content of MTBS3D . It will hopefully evolve as HMD usage reaches the masses.

let's get back to the OP, even with the coming HMZT3 , the Cinemizer OLED remains the finest all round HMD at this moment. As for the finest HMD in the future ... I'll let you know when I get back .And people don't take me seriously, I don't take me seriously but I am about to go play Gone Home and Rome Total War 2 in 3D with headtracking on an OLED hmd I just took out of my pocket.. after I finish up playing Metal Gear Solid 4 with headtracking on the PS3..or Metroid Prime Trilogy with headtracking upscaled on the Wii U . Is a device that let's you do that or someone who talks about how to do these things now worth your time? That's for the OP author to decide.

Your opinion of me does not make me wrong, your attempts to discredit me give more credibility , just as Palmer learnt ..a long time ago now,let's hope Brantlew gets the message..there is always hope after all..

All of you need to get to try these hmds out and don't worry there is room enough for everyone in VR whatever their head gear

[usb247]

And you still didn't answer whether you are affiliated with Zeiss which leads me to believe that your opinions are in fact biased.

[zalo]

and I'm not sure where this vendetta with Brantlew comes from.

He made one post in this thread 3 months ago humorously comparing the Cinemizer to the rift (in a VR forum!), and now he's suddenly following you around and trolling you? Also, he works at Oculus, so it's kinda his job to promote the rift (which he probably wasn't even doing; it was an objectively good joke opportunity).

Also, I don't think there's any argument that the rift's head tracker is good. reaaallly good. John Carmack (before he affiliated himself with Oculus) said it was the most responsive consumer one he tried. And this is coming from a guy who works with aerospace grade rocket guidance system IMUs.

But aside from that (since you're the only one here who I know has used a cinemizer) how does the pixel switch time compare? It's an OLED so it should be good, right? Do you notice any smearing of the image as you track it across your FoV?

[WiredEarp]

@ WiredEarp I made that comment re FOV deliberately , because people are often misled about HMD fovs .I admit I was baiting your reply. When using HMDs including the Rift, there is a claimed FOV and an actual FOV, further the software you use can change the actual FOV, reducing it to the point where it is actually less than a rivals claimed FOV.. How actual FOVs are experienced and arrived at is a complex issue.

The physical FOV doesn't change, unless you change the optical path. Sure, you can display games in a small box in the middle of your HMD, this does NOT mean that your 51 degree FOV HMD is in any way comparable with a 90+ degree FOV HMD. Thats like saying your 50" TV is only really a 20", if you are only displaying a small picture.

I'm not interested in what FOV's you've run various things at, i'm interested in the actual, physical FOV of HMD's. In this respect, the HMZ's FOV is in no way comparable to the Rift.

[greenlantern]

The cinemizer Headtracker and the oculus Headtracker use the same IMUs. So there cant be much of a difference.

[Goldwarrior]

The cinemizer Headtracker and the oculus Headtracker use the same IMUs. So there cant be much of a difference.

Are they using the Hillcrest?

[cybereality]

The Rift does not use the Hillcrest. It's a custom tracker.

[Thegameveda]

hey Cyberreality the Zeiss Head tracker and Oculus Rift Head Trackers do share components .. this I know from the designers of both ..

Where they differ is the
1. the Zeiss head tracker does mouse emulation in hardware as well as DOF axes (for VR) .. and can be used without the HMD
2. it is supported in every PC app VR and non VR .. including native support in game engines like Cryengine 3 ..
3. It can be used with every console game old gen AND next gen .. 2D and 3D gaming
4. the Zeiss head tracker does not suffer from random drift issues we see in the Rift tracker that Steve is working to iron out, thus it can be used in mission critical environments .. in fact it is already used by Fire , Police and other services
5. It is retail not prototype, I tested the prototype in 2012, looking back discussing this with Palmer as a Rift backer I can see now neither he or anyone at OVR at that time would have used a drift or lag free head tracker ..which explains his comments .. simply because I had the only one in the wild at that time .. the Rift tracker had not left the 3D printer at that time..
6. I use the Zeiss with my Rift , have done since May 2013 to date ..
I find myself in a position to offer Zeiss, OVR and other HMD developers feedback on head tracking often , it seems neither JC or Palmer have used a head tracker with 0 perceptible drift , lag or latency..

The coolest thing about the Zeiss head tracker is versatility , using it I have demoed PS3 3D , Xbox 360 3D , PC 3D and 2D gaming and of late introduced head tracking to Xbox One and PlayStation 4 games .. to thousands of people over the last 13 months ..

I find it fascinating that a site like MTBS3D that purports to be unbiased missed the whole relevance of a device like the Zeiss head tracker or it's significance to VR and HMD control across PCs and consoles if you are into VR or HMDS or flight sim gaming in general the Zeiss head tracker is something you should have in your VR armory .. you really just plug it in and play .. and Palmer and JC it is designed for VR too.. I will be using it with my Rift Dev Kit 2 , Meta Pro, Atheer One, Cast AR, Avegant Glyph, HMZT4 and even the Morpheus Dev Kit ... man I loved your MTBS3d Morpheus vid questions..

Tech is not static, has to function without issue .. Like I told JC 40000 or so Rift Dev Kit one users have experienced lag , drift and other issues , 0 Cinemizer users have these issues .. I just spent 27 hours in VR Tamriel in the second TESO beta test using DX11 TriDef 3D with the Rift+ Zeiss head tracking controlling the FOV . It never fails ..

You would think after a year or so of empirical evidence someone from OVR ( or on this forum in disguise from OVR ...Mr Brantlew) would acknowledge the relevance and achievements of other HMD devs ..

Back to the opening point of moving to the Cinemizer OLED ...

Here is how you enable Zeiss head tracking in all Xbox One games .. http://tinyurl.com/p2p446a ( don't read if you suffer from Riftmania)

Here is how you use Zeiss Head tracking on PC with your Rift to play Titanfall in 3D and on Xbox One in 2D .. http://tinyurl.com/pybb8kw

Here is how you enable Zeiss head tracking in all PlayStation 4 games http://tinyurl.com/ojcw7hd

I am currently finishing my TESO Beta HMD article , in which I will explain how to use the Rift with the Zeiss head tracker and play any you game you want right now ..as people keep asking me ..

Some of you reading this may find this more useful than reading all this back and forth VR penis nonsense.

Like I always say to HMD devs all this tech can work together .. right I am off to play Second Son with head tracking ..

after all I need to find something to do whilst I wait for all these new HMDs to drop..

sorry I get ahead of the curve sometimes , some of us have been waiting for VR since the 70s..... whilst I cannot wait for my Rift Dev Kit 2 .. I think I ordered around 10 by mistake .. I can already see the future of HMD and VR tech find out more @thegameveda .. when I finish making it up like the best of them...

[XenapZ]

Since you seem to have a close relationship with Zeiss do you have any idea if there is a new version in progress?

I would hate to buy such an expensive toy if there is a new version around the corner.