Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

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Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by nateight »

Image

As a VR enthusiast, chances are good you've had occasion to play with a few weird or non-standard controllers in your day - cyberpucks, flex sensor gloves, head trackers, whatever. In these interesting virtual travels, you may have even needed to convince a video game or some other software to accept inputs from two or more of these wacky devices simultaneously. If you were lucky, the software in question either allowed for liberal remapping entirely according to your whim or you were a principle coder on said software and could eventually make it do whatever you needed from it. If you were like the rest of us, you used PPJoy. Standing for Parallel Port Joystick, this painfully kludgey but still impressively useful bit of Windows 2000-era software was originally designed to allow enterprising hardware hackers a way to plug a crudely rewired console gamepad into a parallel port and have the resulting monstrosity function like a “real” joystick under Windows. People definitely used it for that, but presumably because some of them intended to wire in two controllers or use a “real” gamepad in conjunction, it helpfully included a feature that saw it reach a wider user base: a virtual joystick driver. Then as now, most games include gamepad/joystick support and a configuration screen to set everything up, but just about any game that isn't a flight sim will adamantly refuse to allow mixing of inputs from multiple sources. “What's that? You want to make button 3 of joystick 1 jump, and button 8 of joystick 2 duck?! What are you, crazy? NO!” the games would shout, that or stare blankly off into the distance as you mashed the forbidden button; whatever you were actually trying to accomplish, you'd inevitably shut the game down, open your Game Device properties, be thankful you weren't crazy when all your input devices worked just fine within their own control panes, and eventually either give up in disgust or discover PPJoy. Using a collection of small GUI apps included with the part that handled negotiating with parallel ports, you could (often after several harried attempts, disconnecting every other joystick from the computer, and locking them in a separate room) define a virtual joystick that would appear alongside your other “real” joysticks in Windows, and populate that definition with inputs from any other physical input device Windows could recognize. Your game could then be convinced to accept this virtual PPJoy joystick as its only gamepad-type input, and meanwhile you could use an arbitrary number of controllers within games that refused to recognize more than one. Assuming you got the damned thing working right in the first place, it was a fine piece of software (and fulfilled its original intent quite impressively, besides).

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But that was then, in the bad ol' 32-bit days. Even when PPJoy worked according to your expectations, the interface was entirely unintuitive until you sussed everything out (though for a program built by a hobbyist for other hobbyists to have any kind of GUI made it somewhat remarkable), multiple tools within the package added to the confusion and accomplished things most users never needed, and a stable 1.0 release was never realized; the project has since been abandoned by its author, the vacuum thereby created being so pronounced several people have attempted to resurrect its GPL'd source, with limited success. A 64-bit version of PPJoy does exist, but requires an archaic command to place your Vista/7/8 computer into an ominously-titled “Test Mode” (this is due to Microsoft and Symantec requiring $500/year in “protection money”). In my recent efforts to demonstrate a foot pedal + gamepad control scheme concept, I again ran into the old problem of being unable to use multiple input devices under any one of the many games installed on my “new” PC. As I had several times before, I turned to PPJoy, but was in for a rude surprise – either due to the 64-bit OS or the fact that my “new” (read: released in mid-2007 :? ) Dell XPS 720 has no serial or parallel ports (and refuses to accept a PCI card designed to add the same, due again to a lack of 64-bit drivers), PPJoy failed to do its old magic. The solutions remaining are dubious at best; even if I manage to eventually get PPJoy working, no part of this state of affairs bodes well for our nascent VR revolution, predicated as it is upon so many novel input devices working in harmony.

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Something needs to be done, and while I can clearly see the problem and the solution, I'm barely proficient with Python; Windows driver programming is generally considered an arcane art best left to others even among C++/C# gurus. Encouraging current game developers to include native support for a wide and eclectic range of controllers in their future games is a quest worthy of pursuit in its own right, but even if someone succeeded in that quest beyond all expectation, this community is perhaps uniquely qualified to identify the large and ever-growing need to mix input sources in previously released software that will never see further updates. Assuming some basic knowledge of the apocrypha involved in both 64-bit Windows driver programming and joystick/gamepad drivers, this coding challenge would seem almost trivial: Define a gamepad-type device with the maximum amount of inputs allowed by Windows, allow it to accept freely-mapped inputs from any and all other input devices already recognized by the host system, and ensure that this intermediary step doesn't significantly add to the overall latency, done. The $500 fee to remove Microsoft's arbitrary roadblock would come almost instantly from a working demo on Kickstarter; I'm of the opinion stretch goals to extend Symantec's certificate to three years and even cash to set up a dedicated URL home for the project would be met with enthusiasm, and less expensive options may exist if the project was kept open-source. Even exploring PPJoy's source code and chopping out the relevant virtual joystick portion ("PPJoyJoy") could go a long way toward meeting the growing need for this product. GlovePIE is great, etc., but the world needs this void filled by dead-simple software the average piker can have running in minutes, not by roll-your-own hobbyist software even experts struggle to ever get working flawlessly. If Oculus has a “driver guy” (for all I know, it's Palmer himself), releasing a small (properly signed) driver + configuration app filling this need would be a tremendous boon to gamers, and provide immeasurable opportunities to game developers and hardware developers already toiling in the shadow of the Rift. Regardless of who does it or how it happens, the first entity to release a signed 64-bit virtual joystick will be remembered as a hero among the VR and experimental gaming communities; if it's also free, the person or people responsible may never have to buy their own drinks again. Deon van der Westhuysen, if you're out there, your software has improved the lives of countless gamers and others, and we're all eternally grateful for it, but it's time to put this pony out to pasture.

Is anyone up to the task?

TLDR: KNOW HOW TO PROGRAM DRIVERS? MAKE A VIRTUAL JOYSTICK COMBINER!
Last edited by nateight on Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by cybereality »

Can't really take on a project like this, got too much going on right now, but hopefully someone else in the community will want to step up.

So what's the end game here? I mean, what is it exactly that you are trying to do? Can this not be done by GlovePIE or FreePIE?
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by geekmaster »

It might be better to port PPJoy to something like an Arduino or Raspberry Pi, so you can use your archaic peripherals using a USB HID interface (or use a custom USB driver). When doing "bit-banged" serial protocols over a parallel port running under Windows, parallel port timing can be a big issue, and even worse trying to do it over a USB parallel port adapter. Let a microprocessor handle that for you.

And why that large freaking font?
Hello! Can anybody see this message? Hah!
I had to resize my browser window just to be able to read it!
Last edited by geekmaster on Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by nateight »

cybereality wrote:So what's the end game here? I mean, what is it exactly that you are trying to do? Can this not be done by GlovePIE or FreePIE?
I understand that using multiple inputs is often possible after arduous effort, but what concerns me is that 99.999% of users (and a good many devs!) absolutely will not do any amount of custom scripting or even labor to install finicky drivers to make it happen. Like a lot of us here, I have a lot emotionally invested in the success of VR, and while in some sense it may be inevitable it still doesn't need things like driver headaches weighing down its commercial success. If non-standard inputs and weird mixes of controllers aren't a cakewalk to wrangle into a game, devs won't bother programming games that properly utilize anything but gamepads, and "VR is too hard to control" will become a meme among users who never bother to seek alternatives. Urging game devs to include robust input options will definitely help matters, but a virtual joystick controller such as I've detailed would go a long way toward giving everyday end users the power to assemble control rigs that felt right to them. My (limited) experience with GlovePIE leads me to believe it can be extremely powerful, but only if you know what you're doing and you're willing to wrestle all the elements into submission. I'm of the mind that what VR most needs in tackling this issue is a solution so simple it doesn't even warrant a tutorial - something that just "works".
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by nateight »

geekmaster wrote:And why that large freaking font?
I had to resize my browser window just to be able to read it!
Okay, okay! I'm used to posting on forums where my walls of text are uniformly met with blank stares and monosyllabic replies, so I'm given to taking extreme measures to trick people into forgetting they're reading; the community here actually seems to apportion its attention in courteous and rational ways, however, so I'll try to tone it down a little.

Getting any number of parallel port-based controllers working isn't my concern (that forcefully mutated SNES pad worked brilliantly for some months and was eventually replaced with the USB gamepad I probably should have sought out in the first place); what bothers me is that the best piece of software Earthlings have apparently yet devised to unify multiple inputs inside games that refuse to accept more than one is a piece of software that demands LPT and COM protocols be installed and functional before it will even let you use the parts dealing strictly with USB gamepads. If we had something like PPJoy with all the parallel port stuff excised until only the virtual joystick function remained, I and a great many other gamers would be entirely happy.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by geekmaster »

nateight wrote:Okay, okay! I'm used to posting on forums where my walls of text are uniformly met with blank stares and monosyllabic replies, so I'm given to taking extreme measures to trick people into forgetting they're reading;
Well, I guess you should stop posting this kind of stuff on Facebook then, eh? :lol:

And sadly, a significant portion of my input device collection is for various devices that I never even owned! Especially some of the coolest exotic devices... PPJoy was something I used back in the old days, before Windows XP gleefully abandoned support of analog joysticks.

A lot of those devices can be accessed with SPI or other serial bit-banged protocols, and using a microcontroller with a USB port is awefully handy to do the dirty work for you, passing the filtered results back to Windows in a way it can cope with. It is especially handy to emulate a device ALREADY SUPPORTED by windows so you do not need to deal with those 64-bit driver signing issues.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by WiredEarp »

Hey nateight, what was the problem exactly when you tried to get PPJoy going again? I had major problems last time around but figured out a way to do it eventually. There is some very conflicting information around about which versions etc are working, so if you want I can look up the versions etc I used...

However, doesn't FreePIE support creating virtual joysticks? If it does, then some FreePIE scripts should do all you really need?
I think that FreePIE has great potential to solve most of these problems, although I think you'll find a big player (like Oculus) will release a 'must have' peripheral like a good game gun, and coders will code against that, so everyone will have to buy a compatible type gun. That will solve most of the controller issues, people will simply know they have to buy X controller to play in VR. That will solve the whole need for scripting for everyone but experimenters/developers.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by MSat »

The more I think about it, the more I see this being of limited use in terms of Rift-supported games - especially in light of specialty hardware (with their proprietary APIs) that are perhaps more suitable for VR use (Hydra, Leap Motion, Kinect, etc), which make an all-encompassing virtual joystick driver essentially impossible if said specialty hardware is being specifically targeted. Even in terms of more typical hardware, integrating disparate devices into one virtual device doesn't seem to be compelling if the game's mechanics are fundamentally limited in a way where the additional input could provide no practical use. Perhaps you can give me a realistic example of a situation where one would like to do this in case I'm just being short-sighted.


I think what hardware and software developers really need to do is set and support some relevant HID class or API standards for these newer devices, which has been discussed here: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=16274
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by nateight »

geekmaster wrote:It is especially handy to emulate a device ALREADY SUPPORTED by windows so you do not need to deal with those 64-bit driver signing issues.
I remain shocked that HIDUINO is a thing - I'm hardly an accomplished hacker in any regard, but getting to the point where some silly Guitar Hero pedals I gutted and (barely) programmed showed up under Windows (even 64-bit Vista!) without so much as a driver installation? Magical. MSat's probably right about all the really useful VR controllers being too advanced to be presented as HID devices, though, and even in the case of something dead-simple like my pedals, devs need to be aware of the possibility that someone might want to use two controllers in tandem or we're back to needing PPJoy or doing custom -PIE scripting. Again, it's not exactly a brick wall if you're prepared to do some work, but it's far from ideal.
WiredEarp wrote:I had major problems [with PPJoy] last time around but figured out a way to do it eventually. There is some very conflicting information around about which versions etc are working, so if you want I can look up the versions etc I used...
That screenshot in the OP details the errors various components of PPJoy are giving me; I suspect the problem may stem from PPJoyCom "requiring a serial port to operate" as my primary PC abandoned them for additional USB banks, but I've read about certain PPJoy versions being generally intransigent under 64-bit OSes. I've only tried v0.84.5.000, though, so if pointing me at a different version would only take you a minute I'd appreciate having another line of attack.
MSat wrote:I think what hardware and software developers really need to do is set and support some relevant HID class or API standards for these newer devices
I want to agree completely; the best case scenario here is that some entity presents an API that unifies support for a wide range of Rift-friendly hardware, devs adopt that and build their games in ways that utilize different control schemes in exciting ways, and gamers don't even notice the driver package being installed - any and all controllers they plug in "just work". In practice, I'm not sure such a thing is programmatically possible, and even if it is, I can see legal issues possibly stymieing the effort. Is Razer going to be cool with a third party bundling up their Hydra DLL into a package they have no direct control over? Is Microsoft? One would hope so, the shared goal being opening their hardware up to wider use, but I've seen these exact companies be stupider about even more obvious stuff in the past. If the best we can hope for is to encourage devs to use the original APIs released for all this disparate hardware, it's definitely worth pressuring every developer who will listen to include native support for Hydra/Kinect/Leap Motion/foot controllers/whatever, but even if we largely achieve that goal, 100% compliance is impossible, and the vast corpus of previously released software is still left without compelling input schemes complimentary to VR. I can't yet say for sure that it will even work much less be fun, but one example I'm aching to try is Skyrim + Rift + tons of community mods + independent head movement via cybereality's Vireio Perception + decoupled Hydra control for arrow aiming and sword swinging. Even if shoehorning all that into Skyrim proves possible, what happens when I want to use something like my pedals to round out the control scheme? I'll resort to FreePIE if necessary (and it's the next thing to try if I can't get my pedal demo working in Unity in another day or two), but the whole point is these sorts of experiences shouldn't be the domain of lone hackers, they should be something simple enough to set up that the commercial Rift outsells the iPad. If there's even the whiff of difficulty in getting into such an experience, mainstream support is going to come with hesitation; personally, I'm entirely ready to be a hipster who was into VR "before it was cool". Even if we get sufficient native support from devs for new games, though, I'm pretty confident there will still be a significant hole in the middleware world, and it will be shaped exactly like a simple, signed, 64-bit-friendly PPJoyJoy.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by twofoe »

nateight wrote: I've only tried v0.84.5.000, though, so if pointing me at a different version would only take you a minute I'd appreciate having another line of attack.
Googling "ppjoy 64 bit," I found this page which links to a version 8.4.6

here's the link
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by nateight »

twofoe wrote:Googling "ppjoy 64 bit," I found this page which links to a version 8.4.6
I appreciate the effort, but I've already been there. The reason I didn't even bother with 8.4.6 is further down the page:
PPJoy 0.8.4.6 automatically enables test mode and detects if it is on. If this did not work you will have to enable test mode by hand and install using PPJoy 0.8.4.5.

The only difference between the versions is the installer, the drivers are the same.
Test mode and 8.4.5 didn't work for me, so unless this page is wrong, 8.4.6 isn't the answer.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by WiredEarp »

Heres what I did (from http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... joy#p86372).

Madascanbe managed to get his going using these instructions also. Note the 'lowid' hack - this is what has made PPJoy REALLY useable for me. Before this, some devices would appear above PPjoys in the USB controllers list, meaning that games didn't pick up the virtual controller.

Heres what I did that worked in the end.

Firstly, I followed the instructions you can find here:

http://wiki.mechlivinglegends.net/index ... _joysticks

I also wrote myself this quick note about what I did:

1) run dseo as admin
2) turn on 'test mode'
3) reboot
4) test mode should appear in bottom right corner of desktop
5) install PPJoy as admin
6) Extract files from lowid hack over existing files
7) reinstall those files, using either the method in their readme, or go to device manager, find the (!) not working drivers, and 'update' them - that should do them all at once
8) run dseo to turn on and off test mode if you want


This doesn't include reboots mentioned in the wiki link etc, this was just some quick notes for myself in future.
Steps 7-8 refer to to the ppjoy lowid hack (not sure if theres a homepage, I think I got it off some rapidshare link, just google for those 3 words and you should find it. If not, I can up my copy).

I used these files:

deso13b.exe (dseo)
ppjoy-lowid-hack.zip (lowid hack)
ppjoysetup-0-8-4-6.exe (ppjoy install)


Like I said to madascanbe, good luck :) It does take a bit of fiddling around, but that process worked for me (after I tried MANY different combinations of files over several days).
Last edited by WiredEarp on Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by geekmaster »

WiredEarp wrote:... Firstly, I followed the instructions you can find here:

http://wiki.mechlivinglegends.net/index ... _joysticks
You need to copy the link from the edit box for a post (quote), not from the formatted post itself. Your link is corrupted (in my quote, and in your post). Here is the correct link:
http://wiki.mechlivinglegends.net/index ... _joysticks

And again in a code box so you can read the full URL:

Code: Select all

http://wiki.mechlivinglegends.net/index.php?title=PPJoy_for_using_multiple_joysticks
I used PPJoy a long time ago. I see now that it supports multiple joysticks combined as a single virtual device, which I find very interesting at this time. Thanks for the tips!
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by WiredEarp »

Cheers, that will make it easier to follow (I'll correct it now), I don't always have the time to format/check things or check spelling etc ( Actually, as an aside, MTBS needs a mobile app!). Its getting worse with the influx of people to MTBS due to the Rift, so many interesting and informative posts to read, but I'm having a hard time keeping on top of all of them :(

The virtual joystick combining is really good. For example, if you load many games with the joystick unplugged, you will be unable to use the joystick unless you close and reopen the game. By using PPJoy, it always 'sees' the virtual joystick, so this never happens. What does happen is I get no control, realise I haven't turned on PPJoyJoy, and switch out, turn it on, switch back and keep playing. I hate the whole 'look' of the application, but it works.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by nateight »

geekmaster wrote:I see now that it supports multiple joysticks combined as a single virtual device, which I find very interesting at this time. Thanks for the tips!
Oi, pay attention! :lol: Buried somewhere in all my excessive verbiage up there was this central point. PPjoy was used to access weird/hacked peripherals originally, but it was the virtual joystick combiner that most people remember it for. Unfortunately:
WiredEarp wrote:The virtual joystick combining is really good. ... I hate the whole 'look' of the application, but it works.
...when it works. I'll go through the full rain dance you've outlined (and thanks for the suggestion), but I strongly suspect the issue I'm having is that this computer's lack of physical parallel/serial ports leaves PPJoy unable to function despite my not needing of any part of PPJoy that accesses them. USB's domination of the I/O market, however justified, has effectively relegated parallel and serial ports to the dustbin of history; each newfangled motherboard that ships makes PPJoy less useful, and makes greater the need for a virtual joystick combiner not dependent on having an outmoded port around. I wish I could just rip PPJoyJoy out of the source and settle this, but I got as far as the first .cpp file and ran screaming back to my toy Python projects. If only there were a community of whipsmart people with lots of esoteric programming experience to bother about this...
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by WiredEarp »

I've just checked my PC and I dont have any visible serial or parallel ports either (just a bluetooth com3 serial port). Which could mean the problem is elsewhere...
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by MSat »

There are a few methods of self-signing drivers. It would be nice if it could be incorporated as part of the PPJoy installer. If there's enough of a need, I have a feeling someone will get around to doing it.


There may be a way to forego a specialty driver altogether though by using a USB dongle presenting itself as an HID device and an application that forwards gamepad values through the device. Here's what I mean:

A special utility app reads values from the various gamepad devices attached to the computer. The app then forwards those values to the dongle which stuffs all of it in an HID-compliant report(s) and sends it back to the computer appearing as a single device. As long as the device is HID compliant, then windows will use its built-in generic drivers. The game hooks to that particular "gamepad" which essentially merged all the actual gamepads into one. Granted, this means it won't be free, but it should be cheap and no special driver will ever need to be approved by MS.

Or we can hope that Steam for Linux takes off and gamers never have to put up with MS's bullshit ever again.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by STRZ »

MSat wrote: Or we can hope that Steam for Linux takes off and gamers never have to put up with MS's bullshit ever again.
Image

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/1875 ... TSalBqVu6D

Looks good, especially if you consider that the majority of Tablets, Phones, Steamboxes and Android consoles like Ouya or those 50$ HDMI TV sticks run on the Linux Kernel and use similar open technologies.

Steam for Linux doubled it's Userbase in one month, beeing at 2% now (about 1 million users) and 1% behind OSX (3%) which is out already for 3 years. Considering that Steam for Linux consists mainly of older Valve titles and 2d indie games at this point, with the major Kickstarter titles who will support Linux still beeing in development, AAA games to be announced in the upcoming months, and very popular Valve games like DOTA2 not released yet, it's a great evolution.


In the future with the Jolla, Tizen and Ubuntu x86 phones and tablets, users could acess the same Steam for Linux client even from their mobile device, and probably even from Android x86 phones once Valve comes up with a small picture mode for Steam for mobile devices :P
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by geekmaster »

nateight wrote:
geekmaster wrote:I see now that it supports multiple joysticks combined as a single virtual device, which I find very interesting at this time. Thanks for the tips!
Oi, pay attention! :lol: Buried somewhere in all my excessive verbiage up there was this central point. PPjoy was used to access weird/hacked peripherals originally, but it was the virtual joystick combiner that most people remember it for.
I was paying attention. What I was trying to say (in few words) was that I see now FROM YOUR FIRST POST that it now supports multiple joysticks combined as a single virtual device. Sorry for not making myself more clear. Sometimes I try to compose shorter sentences, with the hope that people will still understand me. Even so, many of my posts cover a lot of ground and have too many words already. Being extra precise requires extra words, like you can see from the modified sentence above.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by geekmaster »

MSat wrote:There may be a way to forego a specialty driver altogether though by using a USB dongle presenting itself as an HID device and an application that forwards gamepad values through the device. Here's what I mean:

A special utility app reads values from the various gamepad devices attached to the computer. The app then forwards those values to the dongle which stuffs all of it in an HID-compliant report(s) and sends it back to the computer appearing as a single device. As long as the device is HID compliant, then windows will use its built-in generic drivers. The game hooks to that particular "gamepad" which essentially merged all the actual gamepads into one. Granted, this means it won't be free, but it should be cheap and no special driver will ever need to be approved by MS
That is another way to say what I tried to say with fewer words, earlier in this thread:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... =0#p103637
It might be better to port PPJoy to something like an Arduino or Raspberry Pi, so you can use your archaic peripherals using a USB HID interface (or use a custom USB driver). When doing "bit-banged" serial protocols over a parallel port running under Windows, parallel port timing can be a big issue, and even worse trying to do it over a USB parallel port adapter. Let a microprocessor handle that for you.
I specifically mentioned (with few words) the difficulty of using game console controllers that use SPI or similar serial communication in Windows, but I made the implied assumption that other protocols such as USB input devices would also be supported.

There is a fine line between too wordy and too terse, and it depends all too much on the intended audience. Perhaps my posts would be more suitable for a blog instead of a forum, so I would not be tempted to leave out so many qualifying words to control the length of the post.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by MSat »

geekmaster wrote:I specifically mentioned (with few words) the difficulty of using game console controllers that use SPI or similar serial communication in Windows, but I made the implied assumption that other protocols such as USB input devices would also be supported.

There is a fine line between too wordy and too terse, and it depends all too much on the intended audience. Perhaps my posts would be more suitable for a blog instead of a forum, so I would not be tempted to leave out so many qualifying words to control the length of the post.

Fair enough. I had interpreted what you suggested as a sort of physical hub that all devices would be connected to. No harm done.

I have to admit, I have no personal interest for support of legacy peripherals since not only do I no longer have any, but USB devices are cheap and plentiful. In which case a simple "loopback" dongle could be as tiny as the mini bluetooth transceivers with no need to hang old devices off of it. At any rate, I still don't see the practical use of supporting multiple standard devices through a unified virtual device since games are unlikely to take advantage of all the input options anyway unless it's modified - in which case multiple input support should be built right into the game.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by WiredEarp »

There may be a way to forego a specialty driver altogether though by using a USB dongle presenting itself as an HID device and an application that forwards gamepad values through the device. Here's what I mean:

A special utility app reads values from the various gamepad devices attached to the computer. The app then forwards those values to the dongle which stuffs all of it in an HID-compliant report(s) and sends it back to the computer appearing as a single device. As long as the device is HID compliant, then windows will use its built-in generic drivers. The game hooks to that particular "gamepad" which essentially merged all the actual gamepads into one. Granted, this means it won't be free, but it should be cheap and no special driver will ever need to be approved by MS.
I think this is a good potential idea. I also thought geekmaster was referring to a physical 'hub' type device...
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by nateight »

WiredEarp wrote:I've just checked my PC and I dont have any visible serial or parallel ports either
Well, it certainly wouldn't be the first time I was dead wrong about why something wasn't working for me. Unity hasn't been particularly cooperative either (I had to commit the sloppiest hack of my life to get the pedals behaving properly, I still don't have a clue why Unity's expectations of what values a joystick should return are different from those of Windows, and there's still all the camera and terrain business to sort out), so with this bit of encouragement I may scale my aspirations back to using PPJoy and UT3 or something. It's nice to (probably?) have options, at least.
MSat wrote:There may be a way to forego a specialty driver altogether though by using a USB dongle presenting itself as an HID device
It's an interesting proposal, but I'm starting to think any attempt to unify all these drivers might be more trouble than it's worth. DirectInput's 8-axis limit starts to get downright claustrophobic when you're trying to account for all these inputs, but even if it's technically possible, I don't think a list of the first wave of Rift peripherals is going to be a long one. I had a long think about this last night and was able to boil everything down into only a handful of control schemes that should cover a wide array of usage cases. Any day now I'll write up my ideas and post them over in your thread about the subject, but the gist is this: The devices likely to be at the center of the coming VR revolution already have suitable (if separate) drivers, so what devs need isn't so much a singular driver but rather compelling reasons to deal with combinations of them. If certain control schemes are good fits for a game and if wrangling all the required drivers together isn't a huge hassle, the games will get made and the gamers can be pointed to the handful of end driver packages involved. Users may not enjoy installing drivers, but when they work you only need to deal with them once per OS install. Adapting to ever more input and feedback mechanisms is going to be an ongoing process, but presenting the simpler ones as individual HID devices should get the job done; the only serious challenge I see in this is making sure developers are being realistic about the full ecosystem of devices users want to use.
geekmaster wrote:I was paying attention.
Oh! My apologies. Don't pare down those posts on my account, because I'm clearly not doing it for anyone else. :lol: Have we really had driverless HID capabilities for over a decade, and Arduinos for nearly as long? Swapping the FTDI FT232RL interface chip out for an atmega8u2 only happened in 2010, though - as useful as microcontrollers have always been, I really think that's going to be remembered as the point where they stopped being the sole province of hardware hackers and started permeating every aspect of the world. You're right, of course - nobody today would bother using much less creating PPJoy when you can just plug all your esoteric devices into an Arduino and have them magically turn into joysticks or MIDI instruments or whatever. Going all the way to a dongle with only virtual inputs might be overkill to properly handle VR avatars, but maybe not; sorting out this VR control business is going to take lots more discussion and experimentation, but I don't think I could ask for a nicer and more capable group to explore it all with. :)
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by geekmaster »

WiredEarp wrote:I think this is a good potential idea. I also thought geekmaster was referring to a physical 'hub' type device...
I was! I suggested using a small external computer like an Arduino or RasPi (or smaller cheaper dev kit). Use its various GPIO ports to read various "game console" controllers, then present that as a USB HID device to a Windows PC. The goal is to present these devices (with a small hardware "dongle") as a standard USB device that Windows supports "automagically", with no custom signed 64-bit drivers required.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by geekmaster »

nateight wrote:... Have we really had driverless HID capabilities for over a decade, and Arduinos for nearly as long? Swapping the FTDI FT232RL interface chip out for an atmega8u2 only happened in 2010, though - as useful as microcontrollers have always been, I really think that's going to be remembered as the point where they stopped being the sole province of hardware hackers and started permeating every aspect of the world. You're right, of course - nobody today would bother using much less creating PPJoy when you can just plug all your esoteric devices into an Arduino and have them magically turn into joysticks or MIDI instruments or whatever. Going all the way to a dongle with only virtual inputs might be overkill to properly handle VR avatars, but maybe not; sorting out this VR control business is going to take lots more discussion and experimentation, but I don't think I could ask for a nicer and more capable group to explore it all with. :)
I already want a RasPi (or similar) between my Windows PC and my Rift controller box, to provide low-latency head-tracking even when the PC cannot render the game fast enough to provide that capability. Offloading head-tracking from the host PC would allow people to buy and use a Rift without needing to ALSO buy a whole new "gamer's PC" to make it a satisfying experience.

We know most people do not read the manual, and "minimum recommended hardware requirements" will go unheeded. It would suck to get bad word-of-mouth from all those members of the general public who purchased a Rift, only to discover that the head-tracking really sucks on their 10-year old family computer, ultimately spoiling the fun (and the reputation) of the entire VR experience.

I aim to prevent that from happening, by adding a little "dongle" between the home PC and the Rift. The goal is to guarantee a nice smooth VR experience EVEN IF the VR world is only getting updated slowly. At least you can look around, while waiting for the next VR frame update.

If this "head-tracking dongle" can also support tons of old gaming console controllers that sit in the closets of these same people with "old school" computers, all the better. The Oculus head tracker would be just one of many of the input devices supported by this small and inexpensive external accessory, that can extend the life of many home PCs. It could help sell Rifts to people who cannot afford BOTH a Rift AND a new family computer.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by STRZ »

Thats a very good idea Geekmaster! It's possible that Oculus even implements something similar into their consumer Rift controller box, or even design a controller box which also acts as mobile platform, offloading the headtracking, warping etc. to a GPU core on the mobile SoC!

Watch out Geekmaster, they may hire you! :D
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

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nateight wrote: It's an interesting proposal, but I'm starting to think any attempt to unify all these drivers might be more trouble than it's worth. DirectInput's 8-axis limit starts to get downright claustrophobic when you're trying to account for all these inputs, but even if it's technically possible, I don't think a list of the first wave of Rift peripherals is going to be a long one. I had a long think about this last night and was able to boil everything down into only a handful of control schemes that should cover a wide array of usage cases. Any day now I'll write up my ideas and post them over in your thread about the subject, but the gist is this: The devices likely to be at the center of the coming VR revolution already have suitable (if separate) drivers, so what devs need isn't so much a singular driver but rather compelling reasons to deal with combinations of them. If certain control schemes are good fits for a game and if wrangling all the required drivers together isn't a huge hassle, the games will get made and the gamers can be pointed to the handful of end driver packages involved. Users may not enjoy installing drivers, but when they work you only need to deal with them once per OS install. Adapting to ever more input and feedback mechanisms is going to be an ongoing process, but presenting the simpler ones as individual HID devices should get the job done; the only serious challenge I see in this is making sure developers are being realistic about the full ecosystem of devices users want to use.

Interesting information about DI's axis limitations. I've been trying to wrap my head around USB HID gamepad, joystick and other classes the past several days and was curious how it tied in with DI and to the extent of its flexibility (which apparently isn't very flexible at all). Even worse is Xinput which is pretty much limited to XBox controllers and similar clones with support for only 4 axes! It's obvious that those two APIs are only useful for the least compelling VR experiences and are of little use when it comes to legitimate VR input hardware. Sure, it might be useful for a basic input device like a hand or foot controller, but since it's so limited to the point that software developers couldn't rely strictly on it, then why even bother with it at all? I suppose it could be fudged by say emulating a joystick with some body tracking, another joystick for one arm and so on, but that just seems silly since the developer would still need to understand the underlying hardware being used. In which case it may just be better to use the HID VR class or something similar which might make more logical sense.

Based on Oculus' job postings, it's apparent that they're interested in going beyond just the HMD and into the world of VR peripherals, so control schemes are likely a big focus. Initially, I wouldn't be surprised if they make some recommendations or even partner with a peripheral manufacturer like Razer. This might be fine early on, and indeed probably the only option, but I hope that not too far down the road some standards will be put in place so that new hardware can be brought to market and easily utilized without making software developer's lives miserable.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by geekmaster »

STRZ wrote:Thats a very good idea Geekmaster! It's possible that Oculus even implements something similar into their consumer Rift controller box, or even design a controller box which also acts as mobile platform, offloading the headtracking, warping etc. to a GPU core on the mobile SoC!

Watch out Geekmaster, they may hire you! :D
That is EXACTLY what I am working on. The Raspberry Pi (or other embedded controller) is just a temporary development platform. Whatever goes into the dongle (or better yet integrated into the Rift controller itself) is only a matter of what is affordable and readily available. I have decades of experience programming embedded controllers and SoCs, and all sorts of peripheral and controller chips, but most of my recent embedded experience has been with Freescale SoC devices. It all comes down to allocation of my time, and I have more projects I am working on besides this.

After all the darned snow I just got done shoveling (ouch!), California would be a welcome change! :lol:
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by STRZ »

It would be infinitely cool to have a controller box integrated platform for VR indie development and having the controller box battery driven. They could offer 2 versions, the normal one which only interfaces with the PC, like the devkit version, and another one with a powerful mobile SoC and a Linux OS with acess to Steam for Linux. Indie VR devs who design their games with VR in mind from the ground up could use it as baseline for their development.

Benefits:

1. Walk around VR without the cable problem

2. No expensive and heavy Laptop/Backtop PC needed

3. For about 500$ a relatively low entrance price point for a true VR System (assuming that the consumer Rift is 300$ and the controller box doesn't add more than 200$)

4. Reducing the cost for a PC because the image processing would be done in the controller box. This way people who have no powerful PC and want to start out with VR could get the 500$ combo and later get themselfes a 400$ PC for the AAA games and simulations.

Geekmaster, have you seen what Ubuntu is doing now? They're developing a new display server which also uses all the Android GPU drivers, based on EGL, for full convergence between different classes of devices. Not only for their future mobile stuff but also covering their desktop OS. Considering that Valve supports Ubuntu with Steam, and other very important programs like Unity3d and UDK probably launch their Ubuntu Linux clients soon, it could be Indie dev heaven considering that other vital stuff you need as indie developer, like sophisticated audio production tools (Bitwig) get to Ubuntu Linux too, basically Ableton Live done better. http://www.bitwig.com/bitwig-studio
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

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I already want a RasPi (or similar) between my Windows PC and my Rift controller box, to provide low-latency head-tracking even when the PC cannot render the game fast enough to provide that capability. Offloading head-tracking from the host PC would allow people to buy and use a Rift without needing to ALSO buy a whole new "gamer's PC" to make it a satisfying experience.
At least you can look around, while waiting for the next VR frame update.
How will that work? Unless the head tracking is using > 5% of the PC power, I don't really see how offloading the tracking will help performance by more than that amount. Also, if their PC's are too slow (for example, say they only render 20FPS), then offloading the tracking will not get them much more FPS. Unless you are also talking about implementing your 'overrendering' latency idea as well? I can't see how else you could look around while waiting for a frame update.

Most people nowadays have multicore PC's, so I just don't see that offloading the tracking will really speed things up that much, since the tracking (like TrackIR currently) runs in a separate thread - so I guess you must be referring to over rendering and panning the image?
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by MSat »

I also doubt the sensor fusion algorithms require any serious amount of processing power (at least for the current tracker in the Rift). They could probably be implemented on the uC itself if they had to, so a PC should be able to crush it easily. It would probably take longer for the RasPi to compute then forward it to the PC than if it was just done on the PC in the first place.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by geekmaster »

WiredEarp wrote:
I already want a RasPi (or similar) between my Windows PC and my Rift controller box, to provide low-latency head-tracking even when the PC cannot render the game fast enough to provide that capability. Offloading head-tracking from the host PC would allow people to buy and use a Rift without needing to ALSO buy a whole new "gamer's PC" to make it a satisfying experience.
At least you can look around, while waiting for the next VR frame update.
How will that work? Unless the head tracking is using > 5% of the PC power, I don't really see how offloading the tracking will help performance by more than that amount. Also, if their PC's are too slow (for example, say they only render 20FPS), then offloading the tracking will not get them much more FPS. Unless you are also talking about implementing your 'overrendering' latency idea as well? I can't see how else you could look around while waiting for a frame update.

Most people nowadays have multicore PC's, so I just don't see that offloading the tracking will really speed things up that much, since the tracking (like TrackIR currently) runs in a separate thread - so I guess you must be referring to over rendering and panning the image?
My original goal was to use a RasPi (or other cheap portable ARM processor) to feed the Rift, running interesting VR demos, and simple games like Doom or Quake. I know that using a RasPi or Ouya with a Rift can provide interesting content for people to play with, but I have not put much thought into using the RasPi as a go-between yet for a host PC yet.

My thoughts for running host PC games on older hardware were to do the head-tracking and pre-warp as a separate PROCESS on the same machine, so it would have large (memory mapped) bandwidth to work with. The main reason was so the game could run slow and the head-tracking could run fast, and so the game does not need patching or DLL-injection. Offloading to the RasPi was just an afterthought, and would have bandwidth limitations (which I though PERHAPS compression might solve).

Just (openly) brainstorming ideas before I get my Rift, and offloading pre-warp from host PC to RasPi may not be useful. Sorry about any confusion. Your post stopped me from wasting time on that probable dead end. Thanks.
:)
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by geekmaster »

MSat wrote:I also doubt the sensor fusion algorithms require any serious amount of processing power (at least for the current tracker in the Rift). They could probably be implemented on the uC itself if they had to, so a PC should be able to crush it easily. It would probably take longer for the RasPi to compute then forward it to the PC than if it was just done on the PC in the first place.
I was just trying to cross-breed ideas from my various Rift-related projects. It really only makes sense (after posting that) to use the Rift with EITHER a portable computer like the RasPi, OR a host PC, but not both. Mixing ideas did not work this time (but they often do). I feel foolish now for posting that without thinking it through first. But some of my ideas are worth continuing. The fresnel lens stacks with a tablet PC work well. The "Rift Rider" amusement park (and app launcher) seems like a good VR replacement for a flat desktop GUI. A minimal-hardware portable Rift system also seems like a good idea. Uncoupling head-tracking from rendering IN the host PC seems like a good idea for "virtual tourism" type apps, but that would be complicated for heavily GPU-based rendering, so the results are yet to be seen. Mixing the RasPi with a host PC, not so good. Oh well, if you get enough ideas, some of them work out in the end. Posting my thoughts when I should be sleeping can end up with "half baked" ideas like the "pass-through" for RasPi. I am not thinking clearly, and posting when this tired is not wise, so I will get some sleep now. Good night.
;)
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by MSat »

No reason to feel foolish about it. Sometimes it's good to get thoughts out in the open to get opinions and feedback. As always, some ideas will be good, and others perhaps not so much, but they're at least worth entertaining. Even if they don't work out, they might spark another idea that is good. :)

I for one think games hosted on a RasPi or Ouya is a cool idea. Sure, they can't look as great as what's possible on a modern gaming rig, but graphics aren't everything. QuakeI/II Hexen II etc. would be fun to play, and I imagine that even a RasPi could run them sufficiently.

I'd like to see a portable rig that consists of a gun controller with 3DoF ("9DoF") tracking and all the electronics - including the interface box, batteries and computer integrated into it, so that all you have is the Rift HMD and the gun. Add wireless networking and you have a portable VR deathmatch rig! :woot
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

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Strangely, MOST of my BEST ideas came from "altered states" of consciousness, plenty often from sleep deprivation. I have work WAY to many times for 3-days straight with no breaks, eating vending machine food at my desk while working. You just need to write down all the strange thoughts, so that later when rested you can pick through them and pull out the gems.

Posting the RAW unsorted ideas directly to forum posts can be unwise though. Perhaps better to use a paper notepad like I did in the past, and only post the gems.
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

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I still think it's a good idea to use a external GPU of something like the Raspberry Pi or a FPGA for the image processing :P

Don't give up :P
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by WiredEarp »

Just (openly) brainstorming ideas before I get my Rift
Nothing wrong with that at all, its what we come here to do!
I'd like to see a portable rig that consists of a gun controller with 3DoF ("9DoF") tracking and all the electronics - including the interface box, batteries and computer integrated into it, so that all you have is the Rift HMD and the gun. Add wireless networking and you have a portable VR deathmatch rig!
I think you have hit upon the winning combination MSat! However to integrate a decent computer would probably add a lot to the cost. Perhaps just a good wireless solution might be more acceptable at this point in terms of price?
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

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WiredEarp wrote: I think you have hit upon the winning combination MSat! However to integrate a decent computer would probably add a lot to the cost. Perhaps just a good wireless solution might be more acceptable at this point in terms of price?

Even with nVidia's Project Shield, and the specialized streaming hardware in their newer GPUs, Palmer had mentioned that the latency may still be to high. Even if you could go wireless between the Rift/controller and a computer (wireless HDMI and USB?), while awesome and I'm confident people will pull it off, it's no longer truly portable. On the other hand, and probably for similar money, you could go with an embedded ARM board like a RasPi, or better yet, a BeagleBoard, Ouya or all the various cheap android sticks on the market. Or for that matter, even your phone if it has HDMI out - which is pretty enticing since it'll also have motion sensors, USB OTG for the head tracker, WIFI, and bluetooth for connecting to the gun's joysticks/buttons! Crisis may obviously be a no-go, but there should be plenty of games that could run on it. Hmmmm.. I think I'm going to start a new thread on this :)
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by geekmaster »

MSat wrote:... On the other hand, and probably for similar money, you could go with an embedded ARM board like a RasPi, or better yet, a BeagleBoard, Ouya or all the various cheap android sticks on the market. Or for that matter, even your phone if it has HDMI out - which is pretty enticing since it'll also have motion sensors, USB OTG for the head tracker, WIFI, and bluetooth for connecting to the gun's joysticks/buttons! Crisis may obviously be a no-go, but there should be plenty of games that could run on it. Hmmmm.. I think I'm going to start a new thread on this :)
I think somebody beat you to it:

Minimal Hardware for a Portable Rift
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=16577

:P
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Re: Want to Be a VR Legend? Program PPJoy's Replacement!

Post by MSat »

geekmaster wrote:
MSat wrote:... On the other hand, and probably for similar money, you could go with an embedded ARM board like a RasPi, or better yet, a BeagleBoard, Ouya or all the various cheap android sticks on the market. Or for that matter, even your phone if it has HDMI out - which is pretty enticing since it'll also have motion sensors, USB OTG for the head tracker, WIFI, and bluetooth for connecting to the gun's joysticks/buttons! Crisis may obviously be a no-go, but there should be plenty of games that could run on it. Hmmmm.. I think I'm going to start a new thread on this :)
I think somebody beat you to it:

Minimal Hardware for a Portable Rift
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=16577

:P
:oops:

Missed that one - sorry.
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