Using feet for movement in a VR world

Talk about Head Mounted Displays (HMDs), augmented reality, wearable computing, controller hardware, haptic feedback, motion tracking, and related topics here!
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nanicoar
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world: Pedal Power?

Post by nanicoar »

nateight wrote: Take one of these, gut the electronics (preferably while scoffing at the entire premise of Guitar Hero)...
I don't think that's mechanically right and that they will cause your shins will get exhausted from lifting your toes. If the pivot is underneath your ankles instead you'll have more of the the instability needed for quick control.

Pulleys and wires attached under the desk is another interesting approach. - Robust, but you might keep kneeing your desk. With a total of 8 lines you can have a very high degree of control.

There was a game controller which let you slide correctly pivoting pedals along parallel rails. It was good in theory but then they manufactured it in cheap styroplastic. For one that won't hold raging gamers, but a more common problem with it was acoustic. Most likely the next one will fail to the styroplastic too...

I think a balance disk with hoops for the feet and a soft, rubberized bottom is the cheapest, best solution for most casual games. You can then lift it with both feet and when you let it down again the rubber can absorb the impact, meaning fewer complains from family and neighbors. Some games might however require a chair with a seat belt.
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:D
Having looked at some example code, it is most likely sensor fusion. The accelerometer is always picking up 9.81g straight down, which means that in software you can figure out where the magnet is and subtract it from the rest of the data. I'm going to use this trick too.

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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by WiredEarp »

This is a good idea. I was trying to replicate the basic feel of crispos swivel board idea on my Saitek pedals (flight sim pedals which also have tilt on each foot) and had similar thoughts. Your device looks great as the Saitek pedals are rather expensive and not much use if you dont know PPJoyJoy. Does it mechanically prevent you pressing both pedals? Its hard to tell from the description.

However, it has to compete with crespo's idea, and the other ideas, which give the ability to strafe. Now, while there a debate whether strafing is necessary, lets not deny its a useful feature in a controller. If you could come up with a foot scheme that would let you do this easily as well, you'd be sussed.
Even without first-hand experience with a serious VR rig, I strongly suspect tying character rotation to head tracking is the wrong approach here.
Those words are absolutely true. I totally hope this isn't how people try to feed us 'VR' games.

I don't personally think people will miss out VR wise for lack of a good foot controller, because I think the first basic VR controller that will be accepted by the masses will probably be a stick on a gun type control scheme (jazzed up Virtuality setup, with virtual hips). Perhaps left/right on the gun stick to turn/pan left and right, and forwards and backwards on the stick to move forwards and backwards through the world. At any time you can turn your head and gun in any direction you want, because the stick is controlling your hip turn. Foot pedals like yours could take over the virtual hips, to give people the ability to use the gun with full concentration and simply 'move' once proficient using the foot sensors. This type of control setup can be achieved with a Hydra (and wiimote and other controllers) right now.
Stand up versions can have hip sensors and similar working the hips directly, and some sort of standing controller, or an ODT or other LP etc, depending on the desired experience quality.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world: Pedal Power?

Post by nateight »

nanicoar wrote:
nateight wrote: Take one of these, gut the electronics (preferably while scoffing at the entire premise of Guitar Hero)...
I don't think that's mechanically right and that they will cause your shins will get exhausted from lifting your toes. If the pivot is underneath your ankles instead you'll have more of the the instability needed for quick control.
I'm not sure you're right about this, but you very well could be. I do know the heavy-duty pedals in a Firestorm pod that inspired me feel as effortless as you'd want while still providing a strong sense of where they are, and I haven't had much discomfort using my knockoff pedals for extended Mechwarrior 4 sessions. Even if you are right, though, I'm envisioning your suggestion would necessitate either an abnormally elevated chair or a recess in the floor, which would seem to violate the "and cheap to produce" requirement. I'll make an effort to get a demo video together in the next few days to give a better sense of how I see all this working; perhaps you'll be persuaded.
WiredEarp wrote:Does it mechanically prevent you pressing both pedals? Its hard to tell from the description.

If you could come up with a foot scheme that would let you [strafe] easily as well, you'd be sussed.
Take a look at the control sketch - even if you don't understand a lick of C, the entirety of the input is processed by line 24:

joyReport.x = map(analogRead(joyPin1), 445, 510, -100, 0) + map(analogRead(joyPin2), 480, 545, 0, 100);

In English, all this means is the potentiometer attached to each pedal is connected to a separate sensor pin on the Arduino, the total range of motion for each pot is mapped to a value between -100 and 0 for one pedal and 0 and 100 for the other, then the sum of both these mapped values is fed to the joystick driver. The result is that you can actually push the right pedal to the floor to send the joystick all the way to the right, hold it there, and bring the stick back to center by pushing the left pedal all the way down. I'm of the mind that this allows for the most rapid and intuitive turning possible with pedal inputs, but more testing is probably warranted.

Naturally, a foot control scheme that allows for turning and strafing is something of a holy grail, but I'm not sure we'll ever see one whose benefits outweigh those of having complete FPS-style motion with your feet on two pedals and one thumb on a thumbstick. Even if you could convince people to adopt a rudder-type rig, would that feel better than this? A Rift on top of an Xbox-type setup adds a significant learning curve, and even if you had a foot controller that could do forward/backward, turning, and strafing simultaneously, I'm not sure I'd ever get the hang of it. If you accepted that a thumbstick was necessary for forward motion but added additional pedals for strafing or something, what would lateral motion on the thumbstick do?
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by nateight »

WiredEarp wrote:However, it has to compete with crespo's idea, and the other ideas, which give the ability to strafe.
Thinking about this further, I feel VR will be greatly served by some form of foot control, but it's probably a grave mistake to introduce a winner-take-all approach. A vocal minority of PC gamers still swear by their trackballs, after all - what's most important isn't that we settle on one standardized control scheme (this is the world of PC gaming; there will be every manner of input known to man plugged into every game of sufficient popularity), what's important is that we present a full ecosystem of control schemes and let users decide for themselves which they prefer. We just happen to be in a situation currently where the legs are almost entirely unserved by gaming input devices, and it's an urgent issue because we really should have that ecosystem in place in advance of game devs even starting to program their unique control systems. I'm looking forward to personally comparing the merits of a simple pedal system to one of these wobbleboards, I just want to see both systems and any others of potential merit available in time for devs to allow their games to fully utilize them. If we aren't quick about getting something, anything available, foot controls won't be picked up and pushed by the developers, and we'll ultimately get stuck playing all our VR games with two thumbsticks and nothing else. :shock:
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world: Pedal Power?

Post by STRZ »

nateight wrote:
TheHolyChicken wrote:you are suggesting that you have a left pedal to turn left, a right pedal to turn right, and the player would simply use a standard gaming analogue stick (as in a gamepad) for movement . That actually seems to me like the most attractive control setup I've seen suggested so far for seated playing.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm hardly the first to suggest such a thing, but because there doesn't seem to be an existing product ideal for this I thought my pedal rig might be of interest. As much as I want to encourage exploration and experimentation with innovative new control schemes, I'm worried the collective VR movement might get lost in the weeds in the process. Having a simple and largely proven setup as a anchor seems advisable - I'm not certain this is it, but I'm hoping we can determine that in time to establish something as the preferred default setup devs will be building upon when their Rifts arrive.


The problem with the existing pedals or the sensor posted in the video is that character turning is relying on gamepad mechanics (pressing a stick/pedal into the direction until you character is in the desired place, not having direct control over the turning). You have a defined space where the pedal moves which is also limited by the movement capabilities of your feet, so you can't have direct control like with a mouse, because this means that when you reach limit of the pedal movement range you can't turn your character any further.

To overcome this issue, you need to be able to recenter your foot into a initial position for further turning without the character moving as well, like you would do with your mouse when reaching the edge of the mousepad, lifting and recentering it. This means you need to rethink the whole concept of the pedal itself. Otherwise it would be only a toy for casual gamers.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world: Pedal Power?

Post by nateight »

STRZ wrote:[some stuff that isn't actually true about my pedal prototype]
I was afraid of this; a video is definitely called for. Firestorm-style pedals such as I'm proposing are spring-loaded - they return to full height / stick center the instant you take your foot off. And as they utilize joystick algorithms, holding one pedal down is like holding a joystick all the way to one side of its range of motion - no Hydra-style "ratcheting" is necessary, you simply spin in place until you release the stick/pedal.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by MSat »

A few of us have been discussing intuitive foot controllers in crespo's original thread (http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15730), but since all the action is here, I guess I'll recap on some of the thoughts I had for such a system.

I think the most intuitive approach would be a horizontally flat pedal under one foot that can be tilted forwards/backwards for moving the avatar accordingly, as well as being rotatable left/right - configurable for either directional control or strafing. Under the other foot would be a pedal that only rotates, and this too could be configured for direction or strafing (so if the right pedal is set for direction, then the left could be set for strafing, or vice versa). Such a pedal board could be used either while standing or seated.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world: Pedal Power?

Post by STRZ »

nateight wrote:
STRZ wrote:[some stuff that isn't actually true about my pedal prototype]
I was afraid of this; a video is definitely called for. Firestorm-style pedals such as I'm proposing are spring-loaded - they return to full height / stick center the instant you take your foot off. And as they utilize joystick algorithms, holding one pedal down is like holding a joystick all the way to one side of its range of motion - no Hydra-style "ratcheting" is necessary, you simply spin in place until you release the stick/pedal.
If you need to press it down until your character is in place then it's like pushing a button until you're in place or pressing a stick into a direction = gamepad control.

What youn want for a high precision foot control is getting rid of those gamepad mechanics, you want it precise like a mouse. In the thread Msat postetd, i wrote some ideas down, basically a pedal for turning which is making contact with a disc when pressed down and can be recentered easy. The disc is coupled with a pentiometer for free turning. Those ideas are there waiting to be picked up by people who have the skills of building such a controller.
Last edited by STRZ on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world: Pedal Power?

Post by twofoe »

Couldn't using the left and right triggers on a gamepad accomplish the same thing as your pedals but with finer control, Nateight? That's actually a control scheme I was thinking of experimenting with. You would use the analog stick to move L/R/U/D, your character would always be facing the way you're looking (so L/R strafes by default), and triggers would turn your body further than you could by just turning your head.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world: Pedal Power?

Post by crespo80 »

STRZ wrote: The problem with the existing pedals or the sensor posted in the video is that character turning is relying on gamepad mechanics (pressing a stick/pedal into the direction until you character is in the desired place, not having direct control over the turning). You have a defined space where the pedal moves which is also limited by the movement capabilities of your feet, so you can't have direct control like with a mouse, because this means that when you reach limit of the pedal movement range you can't turn your character any further.
To overcome this issue, you need to be able to recenter your foot into a initial position for further turning without the character moving as well, like you would do with your mouse when reaching the edge of the mousepad, lifting and recentering it. This means you need to rethink the whole concept of the pedal itself. Otherwise it would be only a toy for casual gamers.
The scheme is that of a gamepad, not of a mouse.
You use head tracking in place of the mouse, and foot controller in place of the analog stick.
So, if you have a foot rotation range of 45° clockwise and 45° counterclockwise, and you turn only by 5° clockwise, your character will begin turning right on himself indefinetely at low speed until you return to the center position (just like an analog stick);
if you turn 10° he will turn with more speed, if you turn your foot 45° the game character wll turn at maximum speed (and that maximum speed depends on the sensitivity each player feels comfortable with).
In practical terms, it will not map 1:1 like a mouse, but progressively like a stick, there's no need for a "lift the mouse" type of function-
The return to center has to be implemented with a spring.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world: Pedal Power?

Post by STRZ »

crespo80 wrote: The scheme is that of a gamepad, not of a mouse.
You use head tracking in place of the mouse, and foot controller in place of the analog stick.
So, if you have a foot rotation range of 45° clockwise and 45° counterclockwise, and you turn only by 5° clockwise, your character will begin turning right on himself indefinetely at low speed until you return to the center position (just like an analog stick);
if you turn 10° he will turn with more speed, if you turn your foot 45° the game character wll turn at maximum speed (and that maximum speed depends on the sensitivity each player feels comfortable with).
In practical terms, it will not map 1:1 like a mouse, but progressively like a stick, there's no need for a "lift the mouse" type of function-
The return to center has to be implemented with a spring.
In a perfect VR World, the mouse would get stripped into 2 independent controls.

1. Aiming = VR gun
2. Turning = foot controller pedal

Headtracking is seperate and already part of the Rift.

The WASD of the keyboard could be integrated like Msat mentioned, a pedal moving up and down and left, right. Thats how your foot can move.

The perfect foot controller in my opinion would be:

One pedal for WASD, and one pedal for mouse like turning. I think a progressive approach is unintuitive and not necessary if you can integrate this part of the mouse into a foot controller. You get a foot controller which is as good as a mouse + keyboard. This is only possible because the Aiming (hand controls) and Headtracking already exist on their own. You couldn't design a gamepad like this, and it would be sad if the controls for VR don't take the advatage of beeing able to it right, with the best precision possible.
Last edited by STRZ on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by nateight »

MSat wrote:I think the most intuitive approach would be a horizontally flat pedal under one foot that can be tilted forwards/backwards for moving the avatar accordingly, as well as being rotatable left/right - configurable for either directional control or strafing. Under the other foot would be a pedal that only rotates, and this too could be configured for direction or strafing
This sounds like the "foot mouse" idea already alluded to; I rather like the idea, but I worry about the time and effort that would be necessary to get a sufficient amount of these to devs, much less bring the concept to market. As I see it, foot control will be the Rift's MotionPlus - 1:1 control really should have been included in the original Wiimote, but because Nintendo decided to axe the more expensive gyroscope and just rely on accelerometer data, Wiimotes felt floaty and unmoored from their surroundings. The basic functionality of the Wiimote was enough to make the Wii a big hit regardless, and halfway through the life cycle of the console Nintendo added the full sensor package that should have been there from day one - but at this point it was too late, developers didn't want to make games that could only be played with additional peripherals that half the people with Wiis didn't have and would never buy, and the end result is that Skyward Sword and Red Steel 2 are basically the only games that require MotionPlus and easily the most responsive games on the console because of it. Experimentation and refinement should continue over the lifetime of the Rift and its successor, but what I'm more concerned with isn't coming up with the ideal control rig eventually, I'm concerned with the early adoption of a good-enough control rig now, otherwise we might get stuck with a bunch of games that can't use any foot controllers no matter how perfect.
STRZ wrote:you want it precise like a mouse
I'm in complete agreement with this part; I feel the analog nature and wide range of motion of even my junky repurposed Guitar Hero pedals come pretty close to this level of precision. I'm not even sure I'm currently capable of manufacturing a video, but I can have a friend shoot something for me if necessary. Skepticism is encouraged, but hold off on any final judgments until I can fully clarify my case.
twofoe wrote:Couldn't using the left and right triggers on a gamepad accomplish the same thing as your pedals but with finer control, Nateight?
This is a good idea, but I would dispute that it's more precise. Analog triggers on gamepads never feel like they have a comfortable range of motion to me, they've always seemed only slightly more sensitive than a binary switch would be. Maybe we can chalk that up to cheap gamepads and my lack of fine motor skills, but I doubt it. Still, this is very probably going to wind up one of the preferred default control schemes for anyone piloting a Rift with only a gamepad - better than nothing, but far from ideal.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

nateight wrote: This sounds like the "foot mouse" idea already alluded to; I rather like the idea, but I worry about the time and effort that would be necessary to get a sufficient amount of these to devs, much less bring the concept to market.
Nah man, the devs need to implement enough calibration and assignment options, this can be done HID driverless. because it's keyboard keys and a mouse with left and right movement only.
STRZ wrote:you want it precise like a mouse
I'm in complete agreement with this part; I feel the analog nature and wide range of motion of even my junky repurposed Guitar Hero pedals come pretty close to this level of precision. I'm not even sure I'm currently capable of manufacturing a video, but I can have a friend shoot something for me if necessary. Skepticism is encouraged, but hold off on any final judgments until I can fully clarify my case.[/quote]

I just don't see yet how it can be as precise as a mouse if it's not a mouse under your feet (or a mouse sensor) or something analog which acts similar. Think of the pedal to disc approach like the disc beeing your ingame character (you) and your foot turning it directly. It's way more precise than any progressive or indirect approach like pressing or holding something until you are in the position. if you want to turn more like your foot movement allows, you can push this disc and let it turn freely until you stop it, or you recenter your foot like you would do with a mouse.
Last edited by STRZ on Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by TheHolyChicken »

nateight wrote:
twofoe wrote:Couldn't using the left and right triggers on a gamepad accomplish the same thing as your pedals but with finer control, Nateight?
This is a good idea, but I would dispute that it's more precise. Analog triggers on gamepads never feel like they have a comfortable range of motion to me, they've always seemed only slightly more sensitive than a binary switch would be. Maybe we can chalk that up to cheap gamepads and my lack of fine motor skills, but I doubt it. Still, this is very probably going to wind up one of the preferred default control schemes for anyone piloting a Rift with only a gamepad - better than nothing, but far from ideal.
It sounds like you're talking about buttons, rather than triggers. I agree that with an "analogue" button on these gamepads it always felt like it was either OFF/SOME/ON. Triggers, on the other hand, get a good degree of analogue movement (triggers are [1] and [2] in this image):
Image

Visually they even look like mini-foot pedals.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by MSat »

@nateight

Integration in games would be automatic as long as the game supported game pads, since the pedal assembly supports 3 of the 4 controls found on a typical game pad with two analog sticks - the only part omitted would be look up/down. Games that support the Rift will likely support game pads, so this is a total non-issue. The more important thing is that the game supports weapon/arms decoupling so that you could use a 6DOF gun/joystick.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by TheHolyChicken »

STRZ wrote:Think of the pedal to disc approach like the disc beeing your ingame character (you) and your foot turning it directly. It's way more precise than any progressive or indirect approach like pressing or holding something until you are in the position. if you want to turn more like your foot movement allows, you can push this disc and let it turn freely until you stop it, or you recenter your foot like you would do with a mouse.
Let's say you have a foot controller that can rotate, and that rotation maps 1:1 to your avatar's orientation (what I think you are suggesting). How does that work when you want to turn a full 180°? Or more than 180°? If I'm sitting down, my feet only have a max range of -45° (L) to 45° (R). If I wanted to turn fully around, wouldn't I need to repeatedly:

*Plant feet on controller (R)
*Twist feet (R -> L)
*Lift feet off controller
*Twist feet back to original orientation in midair (L->R)
*Plant feet back on controller (R)
*Twist (R->L)
*Lift
etc.

1:1 mapping is nice, but the above series of actions is not. You say that "if you want to turn more than your foot movement allows, you can push this disc and let it turn freely until you stop it". Surely you've just thrown the accuracy out the window!
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

TheHolyChicken wrote: Let's say you have a foot controller that can rotate, and that rotation maps 1:1 to your avatar's orientation (what I think you are suggesting). How does that work when you want to turn a full 180°? Or more than 180°? If I'm sitting down, my feet only have a max range of -45° (L) to 45° (R). If I wanted to turn fully around, wouldn't I need to repeatedly:

*Plant feet on controller (R)
*Twist feet (R -> L)
*Lift feet off controller
*Twist feet back to original orientation in midair (L->R)
*Plant feet back on controller (R)
*Twist (R->L)
*Lift
etc.
Your foot never leaves the pedal, only the pedal leaves the disc when theres no force to the pedal applied. Its only applying force and twisting your foot, no force applied = no contact with the disc = free to move back into position (recentering)
1:1 mapping is nice, but the above series of actions is not. You say that "if you want to turn more than your foot movement allows, you can push this disc and let it turn freely until you stop it". Surely you've just thrown the accuracy out the window!
Why is it throwing the accuracy out of the window? You're in the game and apply little force with your foot to stop the disc when you're in the position you want to be. By calibrating the limit of your foot movement to 90° turning you even wouldn't need pushing the disc often. And with some practice you can predict how much force you need to get in the position you want to be. And you have the option to recenter your foot by twisting it back into the initial position for precise turning! It's not more business than moving a mouse left or right with your wrist, lift your hand and recenter your mouse on the mousepad. Only that it's done with your foot ankle instead of your wrist!

With the option to push it as well and let the disc spin freely, you also have a ability mouse users don't have!
Last edited by STRZ on Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by TheHolyChicken »

@STRZ
I can't visualise what you are describing. I don't think I understand the device you are imagining. I need more description or pictures to be able to continue the discussion.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by MSat »

I don't really see what the point is in having a continually rotatable disk is. An analog-like limited rotation system could be quick and precise as well. Even if it's less accurate, is it that big of a deal? I don't think you would want to use it to aim, just face the general direction.

Another issue I see is that if you have two pedals - one that you press to control forwards/reverse, and the other to clamp down on the turning disk, you will have trouble balancing. Imagine that you're moving forwards at half speed so your right foot is tilting the pedal forwards only half way, and now you want to turn your avatar left. So you have to somehow push down on the other pedal, which will affect your balance - you'll either end up pushing your right foot down all the way, or worse, you'll fall forwards. In order for any tilting pedal mechanism to work (at least while standing) one foot has to remain stable - so really, there can only be one tilting pedal.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by nateight »

STRZ & Msat wrote:[nateight isn't thinking this all the way through]
Okay, point taken - it's a very poorly designed game that will make it impossible to use certain foot controllers, but this doesn't entirely erase my trepidation on the subject. I get the sense that foot control will be such a vast improvement over purely hand-based input schemes that it will help drive enthusiasm for VR; hence, I don't want pedal control or whatever to be something that is merely possible if you go through the process of personally constructing the rig, adjusting the sensors to your unique device, assigning this input to that virtual joystick in an ancient version of PPJoy, etc., I want it to be something natively supported and more importantly programmed to by a wide range of game developers. I'm seeing a lot of academically interesting ideas in this discussion, but nothing that suggests we're on track to having anything resembling a consortium of even indie devs interested in designing games around any one of these devices, and I find that worrisome. Without dev support, widespread adoption of these devices won't happen once the Rift is in full-scale production, and the knowledge that I personally will probably be able to hack something together that will work for me, myself, and I will be small comfort if general sentiment towards VR is damaged because everyone else is stuck trying to control things with too few inputs. All I'm saying is a degree of haste in working the kinks out of one or more of these devices then pushing to have native support in games in development would not seem unwise.
TheHolyChicken wrote:It sounds like you're talking about buttons, rather than triggers.
Negative, I had my terminology straight. "Analog" buttons generally aren't, and while triggers are definitely better, they still feel highly restrictive to me, not unlike my shower - a millimeter this way is boiling hot, a millimeter the other way is bone-chillingly cold. I dimly recall trying this exact idea in an attempt to replicate the Firestorm pod experience in Mechwarrior 4, and being driven to explore the pedal option that ultimately impressed me after the trigger option led to flailing around, crashing into stuff, and generally painting a giant, clumsy target on my cockpit. Perhaps you'd get used to it and zone in on the trigger's sweet spot with practice; all I know is the pedals seemed infinitely easier for me to control with minimal practice.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

TheHolyChicken wrote:@STRZ
I can't visualise what you are describing. I don't think I understand the device you are imagining. I need more description or pictures to be able to continue the discussion.
I can't draw now, but it's sort of frustrating not beeing able to make you people get it what i mean, i'll try again with words:

The foot pedal for turning consists of this parts:

1. You have a Disc with a rubber surface, lika a jogwheel for DJ's which is tied to a potentiometer which turns 360° infintely.

2. You have a pedal (for example like a plastic flip flop) where you place your foot on, with a rubber knob underneath which makes contact with the disc surface when you press it down.

3. There is a spring between the pedal and the base of the foot controller which ensures that there's no contact with the disc when no force to the pedal is applied. This way you're free to twist your foot back in the center once you reach the limit of your foot twisting capability. Like i said, it's like lifting your wrist and recentering your mouse on a mousepad.

4. To turn/twist the pedal left and right, the pedal is coupled to a ball bearing near your heel.

So basically the foot controller for turning consists of 2 parts, the disc itself, and the pedal construction.

For the other foot (WASD) you could use a similar construction which makes justice to your foot movement capabilities as well.

A ball bearing for left and right strafing and a door hinge on top of the ball bearing for moving the pedal up and down (forwards and backwards ingame).

in total the controller would need 3 potentiometers, one for the disc, one for moving up and down tied to the door hinge, and another one for the ball bearing for strafing.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

MSat wrote:I don't really see what the point is in having a continually rotatable disk is. An analog-like limited rotation system could be quick and precise as well. Even if it's less accurate, is it that big of a deal? I don't think you would want to use it to aim, just face the general direction.
Why make it less precise if precision could be done so easy?
Another issue I see is that if you have two pedals - one that you press to control forwards/reverse, and the other to clamp down on the turning disk, you will have trouble balancing. Imagine that you're moving forwards at half speed so your right foot is tilting the pedal forwards only half way, and now you want to turn your avatar left. So you have to somehow push down on the other pedal, which will affect your balance - you'll either end up pushing your right foot down all the way, or worse, you'll fall forwards. In order for any tilting pedal mechanism to work (at least while standing) one foot has to remain stable - so really, there can only be one tilting pedal.
But the WASD pedal only mimics the WASD keys on you keyboard, you don't need to balance your walking speed or the pedal to control your walking speed. The issue you make up is based on a problem which doesn't exist. Which PC game controls walking speed incrementally?
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by nateight »

STRZ wrote:[interesting stuff]
So, half like a pedal attached the inner portion of this, rotating 360º and beyond:
Image
and half this:
Image
with both pedals able to twist independently of their bases?

If that's what you're talking about it's an interesting idea, and I could see some people preferring it over the other concepts, but I'm not entirely sure it's clearly superior to them. Might be worth some experiments, though. I just recieved a second ShuttleXpress to add to my audio workstation; I may attempt to map it to a game and see how it feels.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by MSat »

@STRZ

That method would only work for seated play. If that's what you're after, then I suppose it could work, but I don't see the particular benefit. It wouldn't be substantially more accurate (if at all) than analog stick emulated device. You don't actually need a physical wheel - you could actually emulate the action with much simpler hardware, but I think the "press to turn" would be quite tedious.

nateight wrote:... I want it to be something natively supported and more importantly programmed to by a wide range of game developers.
I'm not sure why you keep reiterating this point, because it's not an issue. All a simple direction foot controller needs to do is emulate an HID gamepad with two analog sticks. No particularly special support required. If the game supports a gamepad, it'll support the foot controller.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by MSat »

STRZ wrote: Why make it less precise if precision could be done so easy?
Why do you get the impression that your proposal would be more precise? I see no reason why it would be.

Which PC game controls walking speed incrementally?
PC games that support a gamepad - which I'm assuming all Rift titles will.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

MSat wrote: Why do you get the impression that your proposal would be more precise? I see no reason why it would be.
For the same reason mouse control is better for fps than gamepads, it's not only the aiming.. sad that you don't get it.

Which PC game controls walking speed incrementally?
PC games that support a gamepad - which I'm assuming all Rift titles will.[/quote]

Do they? I don't play those titles, only hardcore FPS or racesims. Isn't it so that the gamepad has only two steps in Pc games, walking and when you press the stick to the max, running?
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

nateight wrote:
STRZ wrote:[interesting stuff]
So, half like a pedal attached the inner portion of this, rotating 360º and beyond:
The disc would need to be bigger, more like a single dj controller or little turntable for 7 inch vynils :P . And not "attached" to the disc, it would only make contact with it.
and half this:

with both pedals able to twist independently of their bases?
The pedal would sit on a ball bearing fixed to the base of the foot controller. That's the idea. So yes if you will, the pedal would turn somehow independently of the base left and right.
If that's what you're talking about it's an interesting idea, and I could see some people preferring it over the other concepts, but I'm not entirely sure it's clearly superior to them. Might be worth some experiments, though. I just recieved a second ShuttleXpress to add to my audio workstation; I may attempt to map it to a game and see how it feels.
Try it, only the range could be limited due to the small jogwheels. I think every controller would feel alright if it respects the ergonomics of your feet, basically how your foot ankle is capable of moving.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by MSat »

STRZ wrote:
For the same reason mouse control is better for fps than gamepads, it's not only the aiming.. sad that you don't get it.
On a computer, the mouse is ENTIRELY used for aiming, but you have to keep in mind that we're not concerned with that as far as the foot controller goes. We (or maybe just me?) only need it to move and turn the player - fine aiming should be done with a separate device (ie Hydra), which hopefully would be very accurate. I understand what you're saying, but I think there are some errors in your judgement. Besides the issue of balance, it's highly unlikely that push->turn->lift would be anywhere as quick as simply just turning your foot. Not to mention that free-wheeling would be really susceptible to overshoot. Even if it only takes you 1/4 of a second to push down to stop the wheel, that's 1/4 second too long

Do they? I don't play those titles, only hardcore FPS or racesims. Isn't it so that the gamepad has only two steps in Pc games, walking and when you press the stick to the max, running?
If you only play "hardcore" FPSs, then maybe you're better off using a mouse+keyboard, oh and a regular monitor :P
Twitch shooters are not ideal games for VR anyway.

I couldn't tell you how gamepads are implemented on PC games, as I always used a keyboard and mouse (which I DON'T want to use for VR). However, on consoles they tend to implement progressive walking speeds, which I believe is much more ideal for VR anyway. Since you're fixated on control accuracy, you should understand the benefit of having finer control in forwards/reverse as well as strafing, and not just in turning. I can't tell you how many times I cursed a PC game because I walked off a ledge due to the terrible on/off nature WASD. Using a foot pedal in this manner would be even worse - you can't move your foot as fast as you can move a finger!

If you want to build a foot controller as you describe, then more power to you. I just don't think it would work out as well as you imagine. I could be wrong, but then again, I could also be right. ;)
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by crespo80 »

STRZ wrote: There is a spring between the pedal and the base of the foot controller which ensures that there's no contact with the disc when no force to the pedal is applied. This way you're free to twist your foot back in the center once you reach the limit of your foot twisting capability. Like i said, it's like lifting your wrist and recentering your mouse on a mousepad.
If this is the type of foot movement you have in mind for the right foot, I think it may work

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G64ruTqEPeI[/youtube]

1:1 mapping like a mouse and intuitive for PC users, maybe only console/gamepad gamers may find it awkard.

But a pot may not be the best solution to interface with, I don't know if games can accept mouse inputs over pots; but maybe you can use a LED mouse internal electronic to make the PC recognize it like a real mouse!
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

MSat wrote: On a computer, the mouse is ENTIRELY used for aiming, but you have to keep in mind that we're not concerned with that as far as the foot controller goes. We (or maybe just me?) only need it to move and turn the player - fine aiming should be done with a separate device (ie Hydra), which hopefully would be very accurate.


The mouse is also used to change your direction (turning), that we don't aim with our footcontrollers is obvious, why you even mention this?
I understand what you're saying, but I think there are some errors in your judgement. Besides the issue of balance, it's highly unlikely that push->turn->lift would be anywhere as quick as simply just turning your foot.


I think you don't understand. The same argument would be true for turning with a gamepad vs. a mouse then. And for speed, like i said you don't have to lift your foot of the pedal.

The problem with the design you proclaim is, you need to switch the foot over to to the other side to change the direction. You'd be moving your foot a lot more. With the disc design, you can change direction while having your foot pointed in a direction and don't need to switch your foot over.

Which issues of balance do you mean? You have to multitask anyway if you have seperate foot controls and aiming. Issues of balance could only occur with inappropiate WASD pedal design, like incrementally walking and strafing which isn't a reality on PC's anyway. That's a problem made up out of your imagination.
Not to mention that free-wheeling would be really susceptible to overshoot. Even if it only takes you 1/4 of a second to push down to stop the wheel, that's 1/4 second too long
That's only a bonus you can use, stopping the disc would be as quick as pushing a button under your finger. You don't need a lot of space between the pedal and disc, contact with the disc or no contact.
If you only play "hardcore" FPSs, then maybe you're better off using a mouse+keyboard, oh and a regular monitor :P
Twitch shooters are not ideal games for VR anyway.


I don't want to be limited to singleplayer VR, that's the reason i startet thinking about as good as possible foot controllers which give players the abilities others have with a mouse & keyboard. I think if you master those footcontrols and have something like the Novint, or a gun supported on a stand, you'd be able to compete with anybody out there. This would be the breakthrough and make VR attractive for competitive gaming.

You've already given up competitive VR, very sad..
I couldn't tell you how gamepads are implemented on PC games, as I always used a keyboard and mouse (which I DON'T want to use for VR).
But you mentioned gamepad enabled PC games, that's the reality we're facing here in this discussion, the Rift is a PC periphal.

The reason for me not to use a mouse and a keyboard for VR is that i want to aim with gun controllers or interact with the environment with other tracking devices, that's it. i wish i'd have 4 arms and hands..

I'd prefer something like a Virtuix Omni or other locomotion setups, but i already know that i couldn't use it everyday and all the time, especially if i'm coming home from work and was a lot on my feet that day.
However, on consoles they tend to implement progressive walking speeds, which I believe is much more ideal for VR anyway. Since you're fixated on control accuracy, you should understand the benefit of having finer control in forwards/reverse as well as strafing, and not just in turning. I can't tell you how many times I cursed a PC game because I walked off a ledge due to the terrible on/off nature WASD. Using a foot pedal in this manner would be even worse - you can't move your foot as fast as you can move a finger!


I understand what you're saying and it would be cool if walking would be implemented with incrementally speeds. But the reality is that i don't know any game which does it. Not on the PC and not on the console. The console games i know have steps, walking when you push forward and running if you push it forward to the max.

Which game on consoles does it incrementally? Would like to know.
If you want to build a foot controller as you describe, then more power to you. I just don't think it would work out as well as you imagine. I could be wrong, but then again, I could also be right. ;)
If nobody else picks the idea and does it, so that i can buy it, i'll do it for sure 8-)

@ Crespo

Brilliant, yeah that's close, only that you wouldn't have to lift the foot that much, because the space (or not space) between the disc and pedal doesn't need to be so big, 1cm is enough.

Originally i thought about a optical tracker ripped out of the mouse like this guy did http://www.dossierd.nl/ap_voetmuis_detail_eng.html

But then realized that the disc would also have the advatage to let it spin for itself by pushing and then stopping it for bigger turns, or if you enable fire and let your character spin circles firing, while beeing still able to aim.

Imagine pushing the disc withe a movement, letting your character spin, and then aim freely on every target in sight :twisted:
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by MSat »

Potentiometers typically don't allow continuous rotation, and those that do inherently have a dead spot between the area of minimum and maximum resistance. For such functionality, you would generally use a mechanical or optical quadrature encoder. Like I said, even if you did want a push-to-turn system, you wouldn't actually need a wheel. You could have the pedal come in contact with some sort of resistive layer (or even just a spring loaded pot + switch) - the device's microcontroller would interpret the signal and implement a virtual wheel. Or you could have a resistive surface that your foot comes directly in contact with (no pedal needed) - your foot provides the gestures, and the uC implements your preferred method of turning.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

If it works with a "virtual wheel" using a optical encoder even better. Because the disc would make the controller clunky. Using a optical encoder to track the disc, if no poti would be suitable, was the alternative i had in mind. Going directly this optical tracker route could save a lot of poti testing :)
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by squibbfire »

Im and still shocked no one has look at trolling boat motor controllers for this?

Image

Image
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by squibbfire »

There has been tons of testing and research done for fishermen to move their automated trolling motors while they are sitting...heck these could be the already made solution for VR!!? Some of them have integrated pressure switches to go faster.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by MSat »

The problem with the design you proclaim is, you need to switch the foot over to to the other side to change the direction. You'd be moving your foot a lot more. With the disc design, you can change direction while having your foot pointed in a direction and don't need to switch your foot over.

Huh? What do you mean "switching feet"? In what I suggested, your right foot would be on one of the controllers, and your left on the other. No need to move your feet from one to the other.

Tell me, if you have two pedals that can be pushed/tilted up/down, how will you be able to use them while standing up? It would be a futile effort to remained balanced while being able to modulate the controls. If you want to see what I mean, lay two small planks of wood that are about the size of your foot on a broom handle, then stand on them and see how well you can balance while articulating your feet in the appropriate motions. It's not possible if one foot can't remain stable.

I suppose there's no sense in me posing an argument anyway since you're taking the criticism too personally. The solution is simple - I'll keep working on mine, and you keep working on yours. Fair enough. :)
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

MSat wrote: Huh? What do you mean "switching feet"? In what I suggested, your right foot would be on one of the controllers, and your left on the other. No need to move your feet from one to the other.
Twisting your foot over, sorry, picked the wrong word. Forget it.. doesn't make sense anyway.
Tell me, if you have two pedals that can be pushed/tilted up/down, how will you be able to use them while standing up? It would be a futile effort to remained balanced while being able to modulate the controls. If you want to see what I mean, lay two small planks of wood that are about the size of your foot on a broom handle, then stand on them and see how well you can balance while articulating your feet in the appropriate motions. It's not possible if one foot can't remain stable.


I wouldn't want to stand using this type of controller, if i want to stand i'd use a locomotion device like the Virtuix Omni. The footcontroller i have in mind is to be used while beeing seated in a office chair or a ergonomic kneeling computerchair. If you use it standing, why even bother with turning with a foot controller, it would be much more immersive to turn your body..
I suppose there's no sense in me posing an argument anyway since you're taking the criticism too personally. The solution is simple - I'll keep working on mine, and you keep working on yours. Fair enough. :)
Where do i take it personally? My writing would be very different if i would. I just don't get your arguments.

I'm not working on a controller at all, at least not yet because i'm sure others have better tools and programming knowledge than me to make one faster. Honestly, it sounds like you beeing pissed if others have ideas too because YOU are working on a foot controller :P
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by MSat »

STRZ wrote:
Twisting your foot over, sorry, picked the wrong word. Forget it.. doesn't make sense anyway.
I've mentioned in the other thread that I found rolling your foot over (if that's what you mean) to control strafing was, while intuitive, not very comfortable. Hence, a bad idea. That's why the other foot needs to provide some input as well.

I wouldn't want to stand using this type of controller, if i want to stand i'd use a locomotion device like the Virtuix Omni. The footcontroller i have in mind is to be used while beeing seated in a office chair or a ergonomic kneeling computerchair. If you use it standing, why even bother with turning with a foot controller, it would be much more immersive to turn your body..
Ah, very well then. Your method should work while seated. While I agree that turning your body would be more immersive, there is the issue of having cables to contend with. Of course, a wireless system would alleviate that, but there are a few more issues though - such as increased platform size, and making a strafing system more difficult to implement.

The Virtuix Omni is great, but it's not exactly practical for everyone - it would definitely be more expensive than a mere foot controller. Both devices have their place, IMO.

Personally, I would like to be able to use a foot controller either standing or seated - I think it should be usable in both cases.



Where do i take it personally? My writing would be very different if i would. I just don't get your arguments.

I'm not working on a controller at all, at least not yet because i'm sure others have better tools and programming knowledge than me to make one faster. Honestly, it sounds like you beeing pissed if others have ideas too because YOU are working on a foot controller :P
My mistake then. That was just the impression I got. I should have kept it to myself.

Since you seemed genuinely interested in foot control, I was merely having a discussion, but by no means was I "pissed". I was just trying to point out issues I saw with your concept (though since we established that you didn't intend to use it while standing, any point I made is moot). To be fair, I'm even more critical of my ideas.

You're right about my interest in working on a foot controller, though. I think such a device is a good idea with market potential. If most of it goes according to plan, there will be a few surprises that I want to keep under wraps for now. 8-)
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

MSat wrote: I've mentioned in the other thread that I found rolling your foot over (if that's what you mean) to control strafing was, while intuitive, not very comfortable. Hence, a bad idea. That's why the other foot needs to provide some input as well.
No that's not what i meant. If you point your foot with the pedal into a direction, where the direction of the foot is assigned to the turning direction, assuming you have a neutral center point where nothing happens, and left, right, to change direction you'd have to cross the center point everytime, even for small direction changes making your foot move a lot.
Ah, very well then. Your method should work while seated. While I agree that turning your body would be more immersive, there is the issue of having cables to contend with. Of course, a wireless system would alleviate that, but there are a few more issues though - such as increased platform size, and making a strafing system more difficult to implement.
Someone will come up with something for the cables, because the problem is there with any other rig where you stand. WASD could be done by implementing loadcells into the soles of some sneakers, you'd control your character by balancing your weight.
The Virtuix Omni is great, but it's not exactly practical for everyone - it would definitely be more expensive than a mere foot controller. Both devices have their place, IMO.
Of course, there's enough place for anything. Even different versions of foot controllers. People would pick what works best for them and good for the games they're playing.
Personally, I would like to be able to use a foot controller either standing or seated - I think it should be usable in both cases
Do you like the kneeling chair? Its best of both worlds, standing and seating. Like standing, you have more freedom for your upper body.

[youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNJj2Y4ae6g[/youtube-hd]

If i ever ship something, then a controller tailored to those chairs 8-)
My mistake then. That was just the impression I got. I should have kept it to myself.

Since you seemed genuinely interested in foot control, I was merely having a discussion, but by no means was I "pissed". I was just trying to point out issues I saw with your concept (though since we established that you didn't intend to use it while standing, any point I made is moot). To be fair, I'm even more critical of my ideas.
No problem, the interest in footcontrols is natural, i fiddle a lot with my simracing pedals, and i'm lazy after beeing a day on my feet. I think i would use locomotion or standing up rigs only on weekends. The're probably a lot of people who'd like a effective foot controller for everyday VR.
You're right about my interest in working on a foot controller, though. I think such a device is a good idea with market potential. If most of it goes according to plan, there will be a few surprises that I want to keep under wraps for now. 8-)
Good luck, i would like to see something of that virtual wheel secret sauce :P
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by MSat »

STRZ wrote:
No that's not what i meant. If you point your foot with the pedal into a direction, where the direction of the foot is assigned to the turning direction, assuming you have a neutral center point where nothing happens, and left, right, to change direction you'd have to cross the center point everytime, even for small direction changes making your foot move a lot.
Ok, I see what you're getting at now. You're right, a mouse lets you instantaneously change direction, unlike an analog stick. I'm not sure how big a deal it is in practice. I suppose instead of using pots or whatever to measure displacement for directional control, load cell sensors could be used - effectively making directional changes instantaneous and imperceptible to your foot. I very much like that idea. Hmmm....

Do you like the kneeling chair? Its best of both worlds, standing and seating. Like standing, you have more freedom for your upper body.
I have mentioned my interest in using them once before. I had one a long time ago. A foot controller should be able to work with them simply by tilting the base forward for match the angle of your foot.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

MSat wrote: I have mentioned my interest in using them once before. I had one a long time ago. A foot controller should be able to work with them simply by tilting the base forward for match the angle of your foot.
Yeah, moving your heel L/R and use it for pressing the pedal while your ball of your foot is in fixed position should also work well. Extending the knee surface to support also the shin could remove the weight of your legs completely, so that the pressure on the foot ball would be minimum preventing fatigue.

The're some good possibilities to optimize those knee chairs :)
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