Using feet for movement in a VR world

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nateight
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by nateight »

Aabel wrote:There is not going to be one input scheme to rule them all in VR
I agree with this in the sense that every game has an overall control scheme unique to itself - tailoring standard controller input into something recognizable even absent art assets is the hallmark of truly great games - but since the days of Threewave CTF the raw materials to build those schemes have always involved either a mouse and keyboard or a gamepad to control motion, turning, and strafing, and if you were doing anything other than WASD+mouselook or left-thumb moving/right-thumb looking you were doing it wrong. How else would you build the basic scheme for avatar movement given the state of PC peripherals throughout the past 20 years? I think a similar foundation is going to quickly arise for navigating VR spaces. Third-person games may be possible with the Rift but I can't see how it would add much that can't already be done with flat screens, and racing and vehicle simulation games already have a long history (and deep catalog of PC and console peripherals) - those will be enhanced by being able to look around your cockpit but the only serious paradigm shift in that game market is likely to be a marked rise in joystick sales as people begin rubbing up against the limitations of mice and gamepads. First-person games with humanoid avatars are going to be the dominant game type associated with the Rift - without digging up any sales figures I'm guessing first-person games are already the bread-and-butter of the games industry, and flat screens can't even do first-person games justice! And absent any bolt-from-the-blue innovations, the list of potential inputs for VR isn't a long one: You're either using thumbsticks for motion and turning (this includes gamepads, the Hydra, even Wiimote + nunchuck with lateral swings for turning), or you're using one thumbstick for motion along with a foot controller for turning (I'm still skeptical that foot controllers can do both turning and strafing well simultaneously, but I'd love to be surprised), or you're going down with the mouse+WASD ship despite your head tracker, or you're turning your virtual body with your head tracker and hating it, or you're using some Leap Motion/Myo/Kinect/PS Move/dataglove setup for gesture control that probably isn't as awesome as you'd like it to be. Forgetting aiming or sword swinging or virtual object manipulation, what other ways are there going to be to move an avatar through virtual space? I strongly suspect standing VR isn't even going to be a thing in three years - arcades aren't coming back no matter how good of a conceptual fit VR might be for them, anyone using a standing wobble board or somesuch is going to stop the first time they fall over, break something, or take a virtual sword to their real physical Rift cabling, and nobody without ties to DARPA will bother programming ODT experiences of any variety because Palmer, Carmack, and Gabe will be the only three people in the world both interested enough in VR to care and rich enough to buy one. Maybe people use vests or a decent Kinect script to control turning instead of a foot controller, but there's very little else that currently exists on store shelves or even on the immediate horizon. This isn't necessarily bad, either - PC gaming has been doing fine with far less for this long, and if gamers can be made to get used to these schemes and buy an extra controller or two, devs can get creative with the interaction/manipulation side and everybody wins.

Is there a preexisting thread anyone can link to that discusses what input controllers and default schemes are going to be available for the upcoming "launch" of the dev Rifts? It's a resource that will come in handy if it doesn't already exist, so if we can't find something like it in the next few days it might be worth pushing this specific discussion into a new thread and have a go at compiling a definitive list. Balance Boards belong on that list, no question - you've convinced me it's time to track one down and see how they fit into all this. ;)
Aabel wrote:I have a hard time seeing how a compelling VR experience can be developed for multiple control profiles and remain true to the designers intent.
I'm only aspirationally a game developer and I can't say I know any pros personally, but I'd be willing to bet at least the ones designing for the PC get over this pretty quickly. Console devs have it easy - everything nice and tightly controlled, standard controllers, one unified experience for everyone. By comparison, the PC as a gaming platform is a crazy ecosystem of mixed and matched parts, and no two gamers will ever have identical setups. As nice as it would be to be certain a game experience is similar for everyone, I think you just need to accept that this is impossible absent a unifying console and appeal to as many setups as possible with solid core gameplay. The "is Game X better with a mouse and keyboard or a 360 controller" threads will slowly be replaced with "is Game Y really that much better with a Hydra/pedals/whatever" threads and the only downside is that people who refuse to spend a dime on a new controller will have a somewhat less ideal experience. Any game that can be presented in multiple ways without totally shredding the gameplay should be just for the sake of overall adoption of VR; the few games that refuse to do this may be "better" but are unlikely to rise above cult-level popularity until Hydra-type inputs are as common as mice.
Aabel wrote:VRPN
Whoa...I've taken part in some other conversations here that centered around the apparent lack of exactly this; Chapel Hill is the place I'd expect it to grow out of, too. More investigation is definitely warranted here. Check this out, guys! Maybe a unified VR driver isn't a crazy idea! :o
Aabel wrote:Gabe Newell recently had some harsh words for motion controllers, and I agree with his observation that motion controllers are less 'efficient' I don't necessarily see that as undesirable when aiming for deeper immersion and a greater sense of fun.
Probably this interview with The Verge. I can't readily recall disagreeing with Gabe, but a big part of the reason Valve is "unconvinced" by motion control has got to be because Valve is focused on building games that will necessarily live inside computer monitors. The Wii is kind of gimmicky, and the latency is horrendous compared to most other controller types - we don't yet live in the world where motion control is really useful, and Valve isn't really in the business of imagining the future, particularly not where hardware is concerned (though evidence suggests this is changing). But consider a scoring mode for a game concept I'm working toward - fairly typical free-for-all FPS, Hong Kong wire-fu aesthetic, lots of jumping and diving around, weapon options are some variety of modern pistol in each hand, Rift and Razer Hydra required for akimbo gunplay, foot pedals optional but encouraged. Something like 8-16 players are placed in a map that is somewhat too small for that number by usual FPS standards, and the layout is such that players are constantly turning corners and encountering one or more opponents. The only way you can kill anyone is if you manage to deal lethal damage to two separate opponents within maybe a second, and this score is then multiplied by the distance in degrees between them, with 180 therefore being a perfect score for one kill. Now, this may be an extreme example and I'm not at all certain it would even be fun, but you can't even play this game on a computer monitor, with a mouse+keyboard, or in any other way we're used to playing video games. It demands full awareness of your virtual environment to excel (head tracking enables this in a way the world has never really seen), and is only possible using a "motion" controller like the Hydra. We'll see if it's any fun to play, but my brain is increasingly full of ideas like this - unlikely as it seems, I'm going to say Gabe's problem here is indeed a "failure of imagination". :P

:roll: Did I just write all that? I need to watch myself, I'm slipping into old habits again! :shock:

TLDR: ~ FOOT CONTROL IS AWESOME WOOO GO FEET
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by nateight »

WiredEarp wrote:I thought the video was good nateight, you presented it well. I think its a good idea that has potential, the only problem is there are existing pedal systems already out there, so you would be competing against those. If you could make pedals cheap enough (and that provided strafing) I think you'd have a market though...
Hey, thanks. But what competing pedal systems are we talking about here? All I've been able to find are dictation transcription pedals and flight sim rudders, neither of which are ideal for this application. The Balance Board is about the only existing commercial product I'm aware of that could fill this void, and it's going to come with some driver and latency headaches even if the tech works very well.

I don't exactly disagree with strafing being a welcome feature of a foot controller (or even forward and reverse motion also, thereby putting 100% of spacial control at your feet), I just don't see how you do it in a way that makes the kind of immediate sense pedals + a thumbstick does, in a way that only adds ~$20 to the overall pricetag of your VR rig, and in a way that can be available to developers in time for them to start conceptualizing their games instead of halfway through the process. I'd actually be thrilled to throw my pedals into a closet and forget the whole thing if there were an existing foot controller that nailed it in the way the Hydra seems to have nailed hand control, but if it's out there I can't seem to find it.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by PasticheDonkey »

interface is one of the things that becomes standardised. the closer that interface is to the real thing the less any differences in implementation there are. if people have got a wheel and pedals and then they aren't going to want to control a driving sim in any other way ever. similarly in VR if you can get close to your body movements existing in the virtual world, then no ones going to want different, other than mind controlled games so you can do things you couldn't do physically.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by DaveNagy »

Thanks for the video, nateight. Nice production values for a first effort!

My initial, and necessarily superficial impression is that I like it. Not because I think I'm capable of predicting what the "winning" control scheme will turn out to be, but this looks like a plausible thing to try out. Extra points because it looks simple and cheap to experiment with. Also, it doesn't try to do too much, nor ask the user to learn something complicated. (Like, oh I don't know, controlling 3 separate input axes while hopping around on one foot, blindfolded.)

It would be better still if this was a completely off-the-shelf peripheral. These are essentially just rudder pedals, after all. Are we sure that a Chinese factory isn't already churning out a pair of these pedals for cheap? It would make it a lot easier to try out the concept, if soldering wasn't required.

Aircraft style pedals are usually mechanically linked. Pushing the left pedal causes the right pedal to move back towards you. That's okay, and simulates how real airplane controls "feel", but for a walking-around avatar-controller, I like your two independent pedal scheme better. Driving pedals work that way. Independent brake and accelerator. Does anyone sell el cheapo USB "driving pedals"?

(I remember asking myself the same question, years ago. I owned some of the first ThrustMaster rudder pedals, and I was using them in the PC game, MechWarrior. They were a bit clunky for turning battles, and I was looking around for "car style" pedals that were symmetrical, instead of having a brake shaped pedal and an accelerator shaped pedal. I want to say I found some, but I lost interest before actually buying them. That was back in the pre-USB days, anyway.)

Finally, as someone on this board pointed out, I don't think we necessarily need any sort of "strafing" control in VR. It may be expendable, if our "forward" move direction is no longer artificially constrained to our look/aim direction. In real life, one usually "strafes" by swiveling your hips to the side and running "forward", while looking to the "side". If you've got an extra axis of control input just going to waste, then sure, give the player a dedicated "strafe" control. But if that axis can go away, or be used for something more useful, I think that's worth exploring too.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by TheHolyChicken »

nateight wrote: :? Despite ~50 views according to Youtube's counter, my video has generated one comment worth of feedback (thanks, STRZ!). I don't think a self-bump is out of line considering the effort I've invested. Feedback is important here not to bolster my ego but because putting a physical foot pedal in the hands (or feet) of developers and gamers simply won't happen without a significant group of people literally buying into the concept and building software that supports it, and I have no way of knowing how crazy this idea may be without a chorus of support and/or constructive criticism
Don't be put off by a lack of comments on youtube; youtube is a terrible place to discuss anything. I'd fully expect any discussion provoked by your video to come back here to MTBS. To give you a comparison, one of my videos - a "skill" video I did in Left 4 Dead - has a comment rate of just 0.22% (546k views).

Your video demonstrated your ideas very clearly, and you gave a good summary of how it would all work together and your opinions on the subject. Great video overall. I'll post a 'proper' reply, with my thoughts on the pedals, when I'm more awake!
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by nateight »

Thanks for all the feedback and kind words, guys. I'm still very new here, but so far MTBS3D has felt warmer and more constructive than any forum I've ever visited. Just today I received the key piece of my next hardware project - more ambitious and much more likely to prove unworkable - but you've all given me the confidence needed to get hacking. I should have joined up years ago! :lol:
DaveNagy wrote:It would be better still if this was a completely off-the-shelf peripheral. These are essentially just rudder pedals, after all. Are we sure that a Chinese factory isn't already churning out a pair of these pedals for cheap? It would make it a lot easier to try out the concept, if soldering wasn't required.
I agree with every point in your entire post, but I've yet to locate anything closely analogous. I'm also somewhat surprised by this, but it makes a certain kind of sense - there has never been a demand for pedals of this nature because literally the only application for them in the consumer market to date has been using them in Battletech 4 (it's an experience I recommend to any fan, though it pales in comparison to Firestorm). "Aircraft style pedals" are something I'd like to see supported in VR even when human avatar movement is involved, but they're not ideal for the reasons you state; "driving pedals" definitely exist within the consumer market, and likely being analog they're about as close as you can apparently find on a store shelf today, but being styled after a larger accelerator pedal and generally having an extra brake pedal in the middle make them suitable for experimentation but not the consumer product I'd ideally like to see for this use. The challenge to locate a competing product stands.

At this point, I'm seriously considering a small Kickstarter. $50 would cover the cost of a full-fledged Arduino, pots, wiring, one of these surplus Guitar Hero shells, and perhaps even close to minimum wage for my crude soldering skills. If interest were sufficiently high I could see that being the basis for a business loan to create a more professional product at more like ~$20 to coincide with the launch of the consumer Rift. Getting something like this injected into the minds of Rift developers really should happen right away if we want some form of foot control to catch on; I'm hesitating only because there may still be a product poised to fill this need in ways I never could (possibly from Oculus itself) and also because I'm hoping this new project I'm starting will be a quick success and I can roll the two of them together. Stay tuned! :D
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by WiredEarp »

But what competing pedal systems are we talking about here? All I've been able to find are dictation transcription pedals and flight sim rudders, neither of which are ideal for this application.
I was referring mainly to established flight simulator and racing pedals. Racing pedals do pretty much the same as your idea, and flight sim ones have the centre linkage which I am unsure is a pro or con. Have you tried using foot control schemes with both independent, and linked pedals? I'd imagine that independent would be better for faster left/right, but that it might be harder to move directly straight ahead, as you will have to coordinate both pedals?

Flight sim pedals do have an additional possible advantage, they have tilt ability as well, so I could use mine to steer left/right, and use the pedal on the right to go forwards. If I disconnected the spring return and designed it to centre to a more central point, I could also go in reverse then by tilting my foot backwards.

I think you might be onto something, but I'd also second doing a thorough search for existing pedals that could be used - might be some cheap chinese stuff out there that will do the job without soldering? If you go ahead and get a couple of prototypes, it might pay to talk to Oculus and see if they'd accept you sending them a demo version to play with. If they really liked the scheme, it would help promote your device much better. Of course, now they have become a 'proper' company, they might have legal reasons they would not want to check it out, but it couldn't hurt to try.

One issue is that the idea isn't really novel in any way, so I don't think you could patent it - so if you wanted to give it a go you'd have to be prepared to market hard, build alliances with vendors, etc, and try to gain the dominant position in the market before all the inevitable clones appear.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by crespo80 »

I'm shocked I found such an old foot controller, made by one of the companies that put VR into shame :lol:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybLf_g9VEPc[/youtube]
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by MSat »

crespo80 wrote:I'm shocked I found such an old foot controller, made by one of the companies that put VR into shame :lol:
Looks awesome. Or not :roll:

Good find, though. Never heard of it before.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Baristan6 »

An idea for a rudder pedal with linked rudder and independent pedals:
Using a walking motion delta(rudder) would be the velocity, and the 2 pedals control the direction.
both at 0 is forward
right pedal full is strafe left
left pedal full is strafe right
both full is back
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by nateight »

WiredEarp wrote:Have you tried using foot control schemes with both independent, and linked pedals?
I assume you mean with a rudder? I don't own one and have never used one, so I'm having some difficulty wrapping my head around some of these suggestions. It's something else on my list of VR things to chase after on eBay, but my budget for such things is "virtually" nonexistent. I do think rudders are going to see increasing mainstream use once developers realize how right the SXSW panel was about seated avatars being perfect for seated VR gamers; I'm not convinced they'll catch on for moving avatars, though. Ideally, rudders-as-walking-controllers will be something developers support alongside other options just to catch as many players in the foot control net as possible, but I still think something simpler is going to prove itself dominant.

Your concerns about trying to turn these pedals into a commercial enterprise are both appreciated and shared - I have zero experience as an entrepreneur and zero rich relatives from which to secure seed money, so I'm an entirely improbable choice to spearhead the push for widespread adoption of foot controllers. I'm waiting to see if my other project clears some important hurdles in the coming days before I reach out to Oculus and the MTBS staff - it has the potential to be of even greater interest and could synergize nicely with the pedals. I'd gladly hand this whole enterprise off to someone better poised to succeed or embrace an existing product and stick to making software, but no one is visibly working to fill this foot-shaped void we're examining in a way that makes as much sense to me as this thing I already have working; my one advantage is having potentially anticipated the market for such a product, but the clock is ticking! :shock:
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by WiredEarp »

@ Crespo80: Haha that motion pad thing in the video is amusing. It reminds me of the 'VR skateboarding' game controller my brother in law had for his PS2. Crappy gadget that was!

@ nateight: Yep, I was just wondering if you have had a chance trying your ideas with both types of pedals. Please dont be offended if in bringing up stuff already discussed (its hard for me to stay on top of everything in these forums lately!) but I was wondering if you've considered 'tank controls'? IOW, putting the movement forwards onto the pedals as well (so you'd press both the same amount to move forwards in a straight line). That would probably be trickier to learn initially, but would give you the ability to move forwards without needing a thumbstick.

Alternatively, yet another scheme would be if your pedals were mounted on a sliding track. That would allow you to slide the whole pedal unit forwards with your feet to move forwards, and press the appropriate pedal to turn in that direction. A bit like tank controls, only with less of a learning curve. This type of control would be better IMHO with flight type (connected) pedals, you could use a strong spring force to avoid accidental left/right movements while pushing forwards.

Just some ideas anyway... I do think you are onto something with foot controls, as you mention in the video and in some of your posts, I can totally imagine people playing games using these. I quite like the thought experiment of the game you had to shoot people at opposing angles as well :) However, I think that if we can get rid of the thumbstick (even if we lose strafing) it will help immersion. Then, we will be able to 'walk/run' through virtual worlds, look around, aim our guns, etc, without being drawn back into needing a joystick type interface, which really is a bit old fashioned.
I'd gladly hand this whole enterprise off to someone better poised to succeed or embrace an existing product
I'd be a happy man myself if someone would take 1% of my ideas, and pay me 1% of the profits from them. I have way more ideas than motivation to implement them :(

@ Baristan6: Are you meaning you'd actually 'walk' by pressing the right pedal, then the left pedal, alternately? If so, thats an interesting idea. The left/right strafing being done the way you mention sounds a little bit unintuitive however (not to mention both pedals being full giving you reverse!).
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Baristan6 »

WiredEarp wrote:@ Baristan6: Are you meaning you'd actually 'walk' by pressing the right pedal, then the left pedal, alternately?
Yes, by alternation. I have a saitek rudder pedal, and it has both pedals linked so pushing one away from you moves the other towards you. Each pedal also tilts like car pedals.
My idea of using the tilt of the pedals for direction is based on natural movement ie pushing with your right foot to move left. It might work or be rubbish, but I won't know for sure until I test it out.

This site has a good image of how the pedals function.
http://store.gameshark.com/viewItem.asp ... tegory=173
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by WiredEarp »

@ Baristan6: I actually have a Saitek pedal, probably identical to yours. So if you hack together a testbed and want someone else to try it, let me know!

Its an interesting idea, thats for sure. The walking movement might work ok, i'm just not sure about the turning/strafing etc and how intuitive it will be.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by squibbfire »

crespo80 wrote:I'm shocked I found such an old foot controller, made by one of the companies that put VR into shame :lol:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybLf_g9VEPc[/youtube]

This is the kind of crap I don't want to see with the Rift...stupid balancing boards...seriously...even if your sitting down this thing looks like it would be annoying!
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Fredz »

Can't remember if this was already posted, but here it is anyway :
FootStepper: an effort-based locomotion interface : http://web.mit.edu/tew/www/WiegandT/pap ... epper.html

Also :
- Tectrix VR Climber : http://yayamoose.homelinux.com/~ripper/ ... index.html
- Gamercize Power Stepper (used in the FootStepper it seems) : http://www.gamercize.net/stepper.htm
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

You could make the control scheme of the foot stepper with 2 loadcells/pressure sensors inside a shoe sole (front, back), instead of stepping you'd flex your knees a bit (walking on place). You could even do the turning (dragging, pumping with one foot) as described. It would be far away from a real locomotion device still (same goes for the stepper), but not as exercising like stepping.. sweating inside the Rift could be really awkward..
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Baristan6 »

I made a script for Saitek pedals in FreePIE.
It works, but needs some tweaking to smooth out the movement.
FootPedalWalkFreePIE.txt
uploaded as a .txt since MTBS won't allow .py files.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Leahy »

I've thought about modding a stepper's pedals to allow a bit of horizontal slide for strafing and perhaps a slight pivot for turning but I think it would be hard to do it right and properly calibrate it to avoid unintentional movement. Also, I'm not sure how one could walk backwards with one either
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by STRZ »

@ Leahy

From fredz link, it might help you, they did it with pressure sensors in the pedal:
In designing the FootStepper, three interface requirements were considered of primary importance; that the user be able to locomote in a straight line, turn in place, and reverse direction, all reliant solely upon the modalities of leg motion and body attitude. Walking forward using the FootStepper involves simply pumping the foot pads of the device symmetrically as one would expect. Turning in place is achieved by pumping the pads asymmetrically (as though dragging one foot), and walking backwards is facilitated by shifting one's weight to the rear of the foot pads while walking in the usual fashion. This important latter activity, with the weight concentrated on the heels, is strikingly similar to walking backwards in the real world, particularly when compared with other toggle methods of selecting "reverse gear."
http://web.mit.edu/tew/www/WiegandT/pap ... epper.html
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by nanicoar »

squibbfire wrote:This is the kind of crap I don't want to see with the Rift...stupid balancing boards...seriously...even if your sitting down this thing looks like it would be annoying!
This stupid balance board is not the balance board you're looking for! :lol:

Sitting down is a must and you would definitely need the appropriate swivel chair, so that clumsy gamers did not need to fall from one extreme inclination to the other. A saddle chair might be the best. The crapware in the video is an on/off affair without any sensing, common sense, or delicacy.

The 'product' I am working on is an accurate sensor for pitch, roll and yaw that you can apply to anything, for example a balance board, even retrofitting this old junk. With a swivel chair you would turn with your hips while your feet stay on the board, and this movement would then be translated into an appropriate game. - I intend the swivel chair + foot sensor demo to be a semi-passive, natural experience. It would definitely not be for an action game where you have to slam your feet from one side to the other, bend over, and so on.

With a saddle chair you might have good grounds for a horse-riding game. Teenage girls will love it!
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by CyberVillain »

Baristan6 wrote:I made a script for Saitek pedals in FreePIE.
It works, but needs some tweaking to smooth out the movement.
FootPedalWalkFreePIE.txt
uploaded as a .txt since MTBS won't allow .py files.
Nice, but how does it work? You sitwalk?

edit: We need a youtube vid! :D
Last edited by CyberVillain on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Leahy »

Baristan6 wrote:
WiredEarp wrote:@ Baristan6: Are you meaning you'd actually 'walk' by pressing the right pedal, then the left pedal, alternately?
Yes, by alternation. I have a saitek rudder pedal, and it has both pedals linked so pushing one away from you moves the other towards you. Each pedal also tilts like car pedals.
My idea of using the tilt of the pedals for direction is based on natural movement ie pushing with your right foot to move left. It might work or be rubbish, but I won't know for sure until I test it out.

This site has a good image of how the pedals function.
http://store.gameshark.com/viewItem.asp ... tegory=173
Keep us updated, I really like the idea of natural movement. I am still a bit hesitant to sink 90€ into a pair though, I'd like to hear some of your impressions.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Baristan6 »

@CyberVillain
Yes you sit and walk. Walking forwards and sprinting works great. Strafing and reverse are a bit awkward but work ok. The script is just a quick proof of concept that uses keyboard emulation, switching to joystick emulation would work better, but I don't want to run my computer is test mode to use a virtual joystick(insert Microsoft swearing here!). I may make a video. Never made one before so it could take longer than making the script did.

@Leahy
I don't think this joystick would hold up to long use. The constant movement of the zRotation makes a bit of noise and seems like it would ware out the spring quickly. So I don't know if this rudder pedal is the best for this idea. On my first test in Arma3 using the pedals along with TrackIR was very fun and intuitive, but in Crysis with it's faster game play the strafing was awkward and I ended up dead fairly fast. It might work with some practice. Would be nice to here someone else's thoughts after trying it out.

I have a new idea that could work better and will cost than $30.
Mice work great for turning the torso in games, so why not just strap two to your feet?
Pulling either foot towards you for forward movement. Side-to-side for strafe, and use both feet for turning.
It would need scripting to smooth out the movements, but form my imagination tests it could work well for a sitting position.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by DaveNagy »

nateight wrote:I agree with every point in your entire post, but I've yet to locate anything closely analogous. I'm also somewhat surprised by this, but it makes a certain kind of sense - there has never been a demand for pedals of this nature because literally the only application for them in the consumer market to date has been using them in Battletech 4. (it's an experience I recommend to any fan, though it pales in comparison to Firestorm). "Aircraft style pedals" are something I'd like to see supported in VR even when human avatar movement is involved, but they're not ideal for the reasons you state.
Just so we're all on the same page, here are some examples of "off the shelf" USB gaming pedals:

CH Products Pro Pedals These are aircraft style, mechanically linked pedals. They aren't cheap, but they do look pretty plug-and-play, and they appear to support both kinds of foot motion, simultaneously. (Sliding your whole foot fore and aft, or depressing your toes like on an automobile accelerator.)

Here's another brand.

Alternatively, you've got your various racing pedals. Unfortunately, they typically come with a steering wheel, and the pedals plug into that, rather than plugging directly into a USB port. Another problem with racing pedals is that the brake and accelerator pedals will often have very different "feels". The brake will be stiff, and not have much of a throw, while the accelerator will be weakly sprung and have a much longer travel. Not so good for steering.

The only other product I can think of would be a musician's expression pedal. Most of those have dedicated connectors, or use MIDI, but some are USB. You'd need two, of course, so they'd need to be a lot cheaper than that one I googled up.
nateight wrote:At this point, I'm seriously considering a small Kickstarter. $50 would cover the cost of a full-fledged Arduino, pots, wiring, one of these surplus Guitar Hero shells, and perhaps even close to minimum wage for my crude soldering skills. If interest were sufficiently high I could see that being the basis for a business loan to create a more professional product at more like ~$20 to coincide with the launch of the consumer Rift.
Hmmm. In my humble opinion, a Kickstarter would be more hassle than you probably want to deal with. However, I agree that it would be nice if a Rift developer could order a pair of your Guitar Hero specials, and not have to futz around wiring them up. You might consider making up a few sets of pedals, and then "advertising" them on various forums. Just so interested people could experiment. And yeah, if the design gained traction, perhaps a more polished product could be developed for the general public.

Right now, perhaps you should experiment with one of those rudder pedals. After all, someone has done all the manufacturing for you already. It would be interesting to see if they would work, right out of the box. I suspect that the fore-aft motion will be too slow for quick turns, but maybe the "toe brake" axes would work better for that. And of course, there's all sorts of ways you might be able to use those axes in combination with each other. (Strafing plus turning comes to mind.)
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by nateight »

DaveNagy wrote:Just so we're all on the same page, here are some examples of "off the shelf" USB gaming pedals:
Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly scrutinize this problem; it's increasingly clear to me VR foot control is an underserved market, even as niche as it may be prior to the full release of the Rift. Rudder controls are definitely a piece of the puzzle here (Chris Roberts of Star Citizen recently used the term "HOTAS" inside Oculus headquarters in this video @~11:30 (and he was not talking about Palmer)), so if vehicle control simulations of any description gain wider support you can bet a lot of people outside the flight sim community are going to start exploring joysticks and rudders. As for using them to control human avatars I'm still skeptical, though, and if I'm not about to spend $100+ on one that doesn't bode well for their potential mainstream adoption. I second the call for a video of Baristan6's script - if I can throw something together... :lol: Check out Videopad Video Editor; I've wrestled with Adobe Premier, virtualdub, and others in the past, and VVE made editing a snap even with an external audio source.

Racing pedals are likely to endure a similar fate - people will love playing racing games in the Rift and will buy more pedals and steering wheels than ever before, but they're still not an ideal fit for walking around VR spaces, only for driving around them. These steppers are also academically interesting and may even catch on as an exercise device, but you're setting yourself up for failure if you're trying to position any device that demands exercise as an input for any game us couch potatoes intend to play in our native soil (hint: that means all of them ;)). One of my back-burnered projects is an Arduino-based MIDI controller pedal for sending various commands to REAPER while you have a guitar in your hands etc. (I'm slowly realizing I've apparently been hung up on pedals for long time :shock:), and I'm rather surprised you even found a USB expression pedal - they're almost universally TRS affairs strictly for use with MIDI keyboards and other master devices, and their emulation of wah pedals (i.e., a fully depressed pedal stays depressed absent further input) is very likely a negative compared to pedals that spring back to zero. Perhaps the most damning evidence of all comes from something like a year's worth of very general searching for gaming pedals on eBay - all of your examples routinely show up, but the closest I've seen to my hackjob is a cheap pedal rig slaved to a racing wheel (and please note the MIDI gameport connector). A total lack of cheap Chinese widgets on eBay means you've identified either something no one in the world has a need for (up until this point it's certainly been true outside Chapel Hill and choice DARPA labs), or you've located a new widget market. It's quite likely we'll start seeing hordes of VR pedals shortly - and I'd hate to be the guy who took out a huge loan in order to compete with Chinese manufacturing - but getting to that point may require "creating a need" for such a product. I spent several hours considering small-scale production efforts I might undertake and (assuming I find that Guitar Hero pedal warehouse) I can probably get the per-unit parts cost under $20 even without resorting to circuit board fabrication. I remain fairly confident simple pedals could be a very compelling foot controller alongside all these other options, even more confident a commercial product filling this exact need simply doesn't exist on store shelves, and totally uncertain where to proceed with this information. I anticipate sending cybereality an exploratory email shortly after Thursday when the remaining part for my current project arrives, even if I've called that project a failure. I'd love to hand the pedal idea over to Oculus, but they very probably have far too much on their plate right now, and any peripheral manufacturer willing to explore the concept would almost certainly cut me entirely out of the process after grasping it.

At the risk of turning this into yet another tiresome novella, a word about the overall aim of foot control. Many people in this discussion have advocated for the abandonment of strafing and/or the offloading of all character motion into some form of foot controller. I've never disagreed with pursuing this approach, but I think I finally identified why I find it unlikely to catch on: I'm trying to control fast-paced FPS games. I can't say I'm particularly good at them, but I enjoy stuff like UT3 deathmatch + low-grav + instakill beam weapons - against bots you have to turn their smartness waaay down to get even a single kill, but there's a point around which I can sometimes vie for first place, and winning a round feels satisfyingly triumphant. FPS gamers are riding the sharpest edge of HCI, and I strongly suspect VR is going to be the first thing to make FPS gamers seriously reconsider non-ghosting WASD+wired, high-DPI laser mice as the option for their needs. Discovering their new needs inside a Rift is already an exciting journey, but I can say with some degree of finality that the second you tell them your brilliant new VR control scheme takes away their ability to strafe is the same second they start walking to the next booth. If VR really does fulfill its destiny this time around, FPS gaming is only going to be a small segment of the overall revolution, and for something like having your grandmother navigate a virtual museum with you, strafing is probably something you want to take away. FPS gamers are going to continue to demand full and precise control, though, and while I may be developing a bias, I still see pedals+thumbstick as the closest scheme yet demonstrated to meeting their high expectations.

I'd still love to be proven wrong, though, and even if I'm right - so what? :?
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Sabrewolf »

I would be just as happy with a waterbed or submersion tank, just make everything waterproof. The less I have to move the better. This will go great for The disabled too.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by WiredEarp »

Hmm, you make some good points about VR and FPS's nateight. If people can play current games in VR with better than mouse accuracy, that would be a big selling point.
I was approaching the idea from the concept of dedicated VR games, but that is definitely something to consider for playing normal games.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Baristan6 »

@nateight
Thanks for the video editor link. I had tried 6 different editors today, and the end only one gave me a video. it was 120GB in size and looked like a washed out VHS tape. 10 min after downloading yours and I had a working video.

I'ts hard to see the foot movements and the light source died 3min in, but it should give an idea what it is like.
http://youtu.be/UDZYwbquz0g

Here is the script I used made for Skyrim.
SkyrimFootPedalFreePIE.txt
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Leahy »

@nateight Don't worry about your novellas, I appreciate reading well thought out opinions. ;)

I'll just add that I'm in the camp that getting rid of strafing is not an option. I rarely ever play FPS either. While I agree that we never 'circle strafe' in real life, we strafe all the time albeit in much smaller amounts. Just remember the last time you were walking up to a door and then let someone pass, now imagine if you had to turn and face away then turn back etc. I was always let down in the past when games like Samurai Warriors put turning and walking on the same joystick so you could free up a thumb for button mashing but within the confines of the gamepad that was simply the best option at the time.

In any case I am happy to see people trying to get rid of the keyboard for gaming and now exploring other options. It has been too long that we are stuck with either a playstation type controller or keyboard + mouse. Unfortunately I believe it'll still be several years before anything besides those options becomes even remotely commonplace.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by nateight »

Leahy wrote:Don't worry about your novellas, I appreciate reading well thought out opinions.
Thanks, Leahy. I never know if I'm connecting with people or just jabbering at them, so it's nice to be sure. :D

Getting rid of keyboards as game controllers may be years if not decades away, but check out how close Baristan6 just got us! For those who don't speak Python, he's completely remapped walking, sprinting, and strafing to his feet - that is a video of a person rather adeptly navigating Tamriel using only two feet and a mouse for turning! Bravo, Baristan6! That rumbling sound you hear is thousands of one-armed video game enthusiasts crashing Saitek's ordering platform, and as soon as I scrape up some money I'd like to join them. As he already stated, there are probably some caveats to Baristan6's system - I can't imagine consumer-grade rudder pedals are built for that kind of (ab)use, so the concern about wearing out springs or other components might be justified; it feels like you'd wear yourself out doing all that pseudo-running, though this actually may be a selling point for anyone seeking greater immersion; the sound is offputting, but inside a set of decent headphones you'd probably forget it was happening after a while; strafing may indeed be finicky (though at one point you're running sideways next to a deer without much difficulty), so I can't see people playing deathmatches this way when something much more familiar and slightly more reliable is available - but I'm rather shocked at just how well you seem to have this working. In any instance where a sensation of walking is more valuable than razor-sharp precision I think you've clearly got a better system than my pedals+thumbstick, and I'm not even sure about which would feel better in serious FPS games. Good job! :D

I'm suddenly starting to wonder if adding two extra pedals to my concept could accomplish something similar. Several days ago I had the thought about mapping analog non-rudder pedals to a walking motion, but with only two pedals you'd have to stick rear motion and strafing on a thumbstick, largely ruining the whole point. With four pedals, however, the middle two could require light alternating motion to walk and heavy alternating motion to run, holding or tapping the pedals on either side could strafe in that direction, holding a strafe pedal down while lightly depressing a walking pedal could turn in the direction of the walking pedal, both walking pedals together could be jump, and both strafing pedals could be backward motion. And rather than needing to build a whole new rig, I'd even be willing to bet you could do this with two identical sets of dual pedals physically held together or weighted to keep them from sliding around! :twisted:

I only have the one Arduino Duo, though, and Christ, look at my shopping list already - Balance Board, Kinect, PS Move, Leap Motion, now a rudder... I guess this is what you get for frequenting the most interesting forum in the world! :lol:
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Kirito »

i think the virtuix omni is the best iv seen so far with foot stuff


oculus rift+virtuix omni= fuuussiiionnnn haaaa!!!
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by CyberVillain »

Baristan6 wrote:@nateight
Thanks for the video editor link. I had tried 6 different editors today, and the end only one gave me a video. it was 120GB in size and looked like a washed out VHS tape. 10 min after downloading yours and I had a working video.

I'ts hard to see the foot movements and the light source died 3min in, but it should give an idea what it is like.
http://youtu.be/UDZYwbquz0g

Here is the script I used made for Skyrim.
SkyrimFootPedalFreePIE.txt
Nice work Baristan6! Nice use of FreePIE too, maybe I should put up some of these vids on FreePIE's homepage to let newcomers know what is possible
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by WiredEarp »

Thanks for the script Baristan6 (nice video as well), I'll have to try out your control method very soon.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by WhoIsRich »

Just wanted to update you all and say thanks again for all the awesome posts.

The latest test I just finished trying is the Wii Balance Board suggestion.

Unfortunately pairing is a pain as you need to do it each time the PC or board is turned on.
I am going to see if I can programmatically make it simpler, but for now, it's a manual task.

Here is my program for anyone with a board that wants to give it ago:

http://www.greycube.com/site/download.php?view.68

It's independent, works by sending WASD and mouse movements to whatever has focus.
As the board has four corner sensors, on the spot turning is possible by diagonal pressure.
Zip contains both a ready to go .EXE and the C# source for Visual Studio.
Last edited by WhoIsRich on Sat May 11, 2013 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Aabel »

This looks great! Will give it a try sometime this week. Did you base this off the managed library for nintendo's wiimote?
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by WhoIsRich »

Aabel wrote:Did you base this off the managed library for nintendo's wiimote?
Yes :) It uses the DLL rather than compile it in. It's very good although had to do my own balance ratio's because their CenterOfGravity errors when you touch a single corner.
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by PatimPatam »

Thanks a lot WhoIsRich, you rock!! Will get a Wii board this week to start fiddling with this!


@Admins
Appreciate this topic being moved outside the Oculus forum; however should this not fit better inside the R&D forum instead, next to these other related threads?

A "foot controller" for VR games: could it work?
Controlling movement with a Wii Balance Board

(plus it contains working prototypes, source code, etc)

Thank you!
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by Leahy »

I figure this thread is probably the best place to toss this idea out there. It certainly is far from ideal and is quite poor in terms as a foot controller but very cheap if you have a steering wheel already. It probably has already been tried since it's nothing groundbreaking.

Try attaching strings to the center of your wheel then looping them in an unobstructive manner below the wheel then behind your chair attaching each one to a shoulder so that when your body turns a bit in one direction it pulls the wheel in that direction. Then map that to independent turning. You can use the pedals for forward and back, however you'll still be left with pushing a button for strafing. I figure you'll probably have to run the lines along the floor to get to the back of the chair without getting in the way.

I don't have a good desk/chair setup to try it on at the moment but I think it'll be my input of preference until someone comes out with something better
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Re: Using feet for movement in a VR world

Post by WhoIsRich »

New version is now available.

Download:
http://www.greycube.com/site/download.php?view.68

- Bluetooth management with permanent sync! ( Inspired by WiiPair )
- Actions can be customized.
- Jumping support, not recommend for standing usage!
- Better compatibility with official Wii board.
- Made it clearer when actions are not enabled.

The bluetooth option is the most important, by sending a special pin it pairs up devices like a real Wii console, no more need the needing to take off the battery cover to re-sync every time!
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