MAG II : Awesome gun controller for PC and PS3

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:14 pm

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/11/03/the-m ... s3-and-pc/

Says it compatible with "All" shooting games, so I imagine it has built-in mouse/joystick emulation.

Could make a nice plug-and-play addition to the Rift or other VR setup.

Its up for pre-order now, releases next week:
http://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Inductio ... rds=mag+II

Post by **Namielus** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:22 pm

Seems like it has a strategically placed calibration button close to the trigger, indicating drifting problems.
However for a gun, I imagine this is much less of a problem as your drifted view will not get ripped into place every time you calibrate.

How do you think that "on the fly calibration" works? If its supposed to support all games on ps3, it cant force the game to display a marker to aim at. Maybe its just "aim at the middle of the screen and push" type of calibration?

Since it has joysticks and such, I hope they arent using that as a very thin alibi to claim support for all games (simply using it as a joypad)

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:24 pm

It has one joystick, which is presumably used for movement just like the Wii Nunchuk or PS Navigator.

I do wonder what the calibration button does (probably just recenters the view).

Post by **Conan** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:40 am

these have been available from EB Games in Australia for a while, ill give one a go and let you know how it feels

And Hello all.

Im a kickstarter backer and thought it was about time I came over and said hello

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:15 pm

Hey Conan! Welcome to the forum.

Also, I will be buying one of these soon so expect a video and/or review.

Post by **pierreye** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:51 pm

Looks interesting. I'm actually modding the sharpshooter to include a magnetic switch at the stock and put some magnet to shoulder. If I put the stock near my shoulder, it would connect the switch thus register as iron sight view. I prefer this then adding on a physical switch on the stock as it look out of place.

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:47 pm

Here's a video I found:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzcxWmaaPyg[/youtube]

Seems like it does actually have 1:1 mapping, which may be useful for backtop setups.

Post by **PalmerTech** » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:28 am

I am skeptical. The reviewer says later that the gun has a dial to adjust sensitivity until it "feels right", and I don't see how it could have 1:1 emulation of all shooter games that use a joystick input. Heck, a lot of console games have quite a bit of auto-aim moving the reticle onto target slightly, even that would throw the tracking off of 1:1.

Maybe 1:1 is available through some kind of SDK?

Post by **Krenzo** » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:02 pm

What's the point? The wii mote works just fine for shooting games using LED tracking. I don't see a use for it if you're going to be playing on a TV.

Post by **cybereality** » Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:49 pm

PalmerTech wrote:Maybe 1:1 is available through some kind of SDK?

The press release says: "Updateable System Firmware & Mods", so maybe there will be an SDK.

Krenzo wrote:What's the point?

I think the appeal is that its (hopefully) recognized as a standard game pad, and would not need any special drivers or software to use. Of course this is not the only solution to having a gun-like controller on the PC, but more options are always nice.

Post by **mAchiNE** » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:34 am

Nice find Cyber! If this is any good I guess it makes my half finished Wiimote/Airsoft rifle Gun controller a bit pointless... that video review seemed OK even has vibration force feed back

, although proper recoil feedback would of been better.
The calibration button probably works like the ratchet button on the Razer Hydra, so you hold the button down and the tracker would stop tracking, then re-center the guns aim on the screen and let go and it would start tracking again.
Also a stock mounted button/sensor for auto Zoom/scope view when the gun is held to the users shoulder would have been good too... so maybe finishing my custom controller isn't so pointless after all

If this thing has drift problems then I can't see it being too good for the Rift because if the tracker on this gun drifts away from the tracker on the Rift then you will have problems and calibration correction on the fly would be trickier then with a static screen (not to mention how it would break immersion every time it drifts more than a tiny bit)
I think having 2 magnetic trackers like with the Hydra might be the best way to solve that problem

that being said it's still pretty cool for an off the shelf product

Post by **cybereality** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:22 pm

Here is another video I found:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_4TfJYd2Og[/youtube]

Notice that when the guy moves the gun its a relative motion in the game, similar to how a mouse works. Its not just straight analog-stick emulation (otherwise the camera would keep turning forever when the gun leans to the side). This means with proper calibration it should be able to produce 1:1 motion (useful with a backtop setup, for example).

Also I bought the last one on Amazon. Its now back-ordered for 4-7 weeks. Sorry guys.

I will try to write up a quick review next week.

Post by **mAchiNE** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:31 pm

Arrgh

when I heard EB Games was selling these I hoped I might be able to get one locally, but when I went down to the store to see if I could get one they said it's only EB in America that has them and they can't even order me one

And to rub salt in the wound now I find out there is a 4-6 week wait on amazon...

I look foward to your review Cyber

Edit: just checked the EB games website for New Zealand and it seems the staff at the shop are uninformed, it is available for pre order and is released on 29 Nov here for $198

Post by **Nick3DvB** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:54 pm

Looking forward to the review to, I'm still using the guts of an old Gyration mouse taped to a Wiizapper! lol

Post by **Conan** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:41 am

I found some more gun controllers that are already out and cost ~$35 US

they apear to be made by the same company as the MAG II

http://www.hktdc.com/manufacturers-supp ... /1X04Z9TG/

Post by **3dvison** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:59 pm

Looking forward to what you think cybereality...I need a quick buy or don't buy verdict for a future RIFT owner..They are back in stock.

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:09 pm

It should arrive tomorrow, so I will be posting thoughts soon.

Post by **3dvison** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:03 pm

cybereality wrote:It should arrive tomorrow, so I will be posting thoughts soon.

Great, the sooner the better...No pressure

Post by **Rickardo69** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:54 pm

Any sign of your mag ii cyber, like the others I really would like to here an honest opinion on it before committing

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:04 pm

I just got the Mag II and spent about 20 minutes playing with it. First impressions are very good. Have some 3D videos I will post later tonight.

MagII.JPG

Pros:
+ Works right out of the box. No drivers, nothing to configure on the PC. There are a few different modes adjusted with a knob, I found one that worked good for FPS games.
+ It rumbles when you pull the trigger, no need for game support.
+ Feels alright to hold. Not too heavy, but heavy enough that it doesn't feel like a POS.
+ Looks somewhat cool.

Cons:
- Does have some drift, but this is very easy to correct by just looking to the edge for a moment.
- Stock is too short, so you can't really hold it like a rifle. Feels more like a SMG.
- Gun handle is small, and you can accidentally hit the second trigger button (not a huge deal, but they should have made it longer).
- Not sure if there is a 1:1 mode, otherwise it may be hard to use this with a free-motion VR setup.
- At $150, its on the more expensive side of what you expect something like this to cost.

I will post more info as I get to play with it more. But so far it seems pretty good. The only question now is how adjustable the controls are, for example for use with a backtop. Currently it seems to be calibrated for standing in front of a TV (which would be, by far, the most common use case). But I know a lot of people here are interested in VR, so its a concern.

Basically the way it works is that within a large cone in the middle of the screen is basically 1:1 mouse mapping. As you start aiming toward the edge of the screen the movement becomes faster. Just to be clear, you always have to move the gun for the camera to move. This is not like Wii games (or the Hydra Portal 2) where aiming on the edge continuously turns. This is a good thing. It felt very natural to aim and was easy to pick up.

You will see more, I have an 4 minute video of Left4Dead using this thing that should be up later. Stay tuned.

Post by **EdZ** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:52 pm

cybereality wrote:Just to be clear, you always have to move the gun for the camera to move. This is not like Wii games (or the Hydra Portal 2) where aiming on the edge continuously turns. This is a good thing. It felt very natural to aim and was easy to pick up.

How does this work for, say, turning fully around multiple times in the same direction?

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:07 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwi-PfZzUAs[/youtube]
I thought we had 3D embeds working, but looks like you will have to go to YouTube to see in its full glory.

EdZ wrote:How does this work for, say, turning fully around multiple times in the same direction?

You can do it, but then you will not be facing forward anymore (for example if you are playing on a monitor). However when you start getting toward the edge of the screen it moves very fast (see the end of the video) so you could potentially turn around 3 or 4 times in the game, but only really turn 180 degrees in real life. For an HMD this is less of an issue, as you could be seated or standing and still be able to turn around at least 180 degrees in real life before the cables got tangled.

Post by **fireslayer26** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:57 pm

Looks like it could be a great addition to the Rift! Will be following this thread closely!

Post by **3dvison** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:37 pm

Hey Cyber, Thanks again for coming through with information on another VR product.

I liked the video and what you did at it's end.
There is one thing I may have missed. Is there a button on the gun, that when pressed, allows you to move the gun, without moving anything on screen ? Like lifting a mouse up off its surface so it can't track movement. I have not used a Hydra but I guess somthing like it's ratchetting.

Also, I know you don't have a RIFT yet. But I see the Hydra in your picture, so heres the question and what is your best guess.

If you had a RIFT in your hands right now, would you use the Hydra or the MagII to play Doom3-BFG ?

Post by **Rickardo69** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:29 pm

3dvison wrote:If you had a RIFT in your hands right now, would you use the Hydra or the MagII to play Doom3-BFG ?

That's a really good question 3Dvison

Thanks for the review cyber it's always good to here the cons as well as the pros
In all it seems like a nice piece of kit, my question is the rifts head tracking and controller buttons on the mag will be taking care of the view so really all the gun needs to be doing motion wise is control the cross hair and obviously feel like a gun ,please tell me if Ive got this wrong .
Will we be able to use it for that ?

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:25 pm

@3dvison: Yes. There is a red button near the front that is for "on-the-fly calibration" which basically means it pauses updating and lets you move the gun back into a good position. Normally you would make the game camera look straight-forward, then hold the button and re-center your aim. This is the same thing as ratcheting on the Razer Hydra, or simply lifting up your mouse. To be honest, you do not have to do this much at all. The video I filmed was like for 4 minutes of action and I don't think I used it once. On the longer session I played afterwards I did end up using it a few times, but its not like it happens all the time.

On between the Hydra and the Mag II, I might go with the Mag II. The Hydra is a great device, but their joystick/mouse emulation is not the best. It worked great on Portal 2, since that was a native game, but on older or non-supported titles I felt the experience was lacking. I know they have improved the drivers since then, but I haven't got a chance to try the latest version. Anyway, the Hydra has other cons mainly because it is wired (another thing to worry about and get tangled up), and ratcheting is annoying. To the Mag II's credit it rumbles (which is very fun, especially with machine guns), and it feels somewhat like a gun. It also doesn't need any drivers, so should work with almost any shooting game. The advantage of the Hydra is that it can do something close to 1:1 movement, which would be great for stand-up VR (if it were wireless...). The Mag II is designed to be played in front of a TV, and only works well if you keep facing generally in the same direction.

@Rickardo69: So far I have not found a way to adjust the motion-controls much on the Mag II gun. So I don't think you could disable the mouse-emulation (for example, to *only* use the Rift head-tracker). For DOOM 3 and other natively supported titles they should work together just fine. Well I guess you could tape down the "calibration" button to disable the gun movement, but this seems sort of ghetto and I'm not sure it would work for long periods of time. The Mag II would also only really be useful in a seated position, or standing up facing one direction. This is not a good option for Backtop VR or similar free-motion setups.

Additionally, I tried out all the different "modes" on the gun and could not find one that had 1:1 movement. Most of them seemed exactly the same (there is no info in the short manual as to what these modes do). They all seem geared toward FPS games, and had a great button layout for Left4Dead, all the major actions were accounted for. I imagine in some games with lots of different keys, you may need to configure things but there are a total of 15 buttons (including the trigger) so it should be enough for most any title. I did find a mode that had more linear movement, but it was probably like 1:4 instead of 1:1. Meaning that 90 degrees of controller rotation would move the game camera a total of 360 degrees. Also, on this mode, there were some anomalies, basically huge jumps of the camera at certain angles. The other modes did not seem to have this problem.

Also, there is a USB port so that opens the doors to modding the device. I am hoping there will be some sort of SDK and that someone will make a 1:1 mode for this peripheral.

Post by **3dvison** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:46 pm

Question Deleted....

Post by **Rickardo69** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:59 pm

Cyber i feel for you man
you go out and buy this devise before anyone else and then get asked all the questions the manufacture should be answering and the compactability of the rift ,which you dont even have one yet, uck me people or so demanding
you do a great job here

Post by **bobv5** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:25 pm

Cyber, if TV's have HDMI, and graphics cards have DVI, display port, or maybe VGA, then what colour should I paint my cat?

Seriously though, somebody should email the guys that made it and ask if they can make a 1:1 firmware update. (Not me, I'm rubbish at that stuff and can't afford to buy one anyway.)

Cyber have you tried connecting to the USB? I expect you are too busy to actually try to hack it but it might give some useful info about how hard a hack would be.

Post by **3dvison** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:58 pm

Hey Cyber,
I just come on here to talk and shoot the breeze about VR stuff.
I know you don't have a RIFT, I said that in my post. I do know you had a Vuzix VR920 & VR1200, so I thought even though the trackers are different, you might be able to make a guess from other VR products you have had.
I did not think I was being demanding, I thought I was asking a quetion about the MagII gun in a thread, that is about, the MagII gun....

As always, Thanks for all your Help.

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:24 pm

3dvison wrote:Would I be able to use the RIFTs tracker for all tracking tasks like, 360deg turning, and looking around, while at the same time keeping the MagII's red button pressed and only letting it go when I want to use the gun to Aim/shoot ?

I just tested it out now. Here's the thing: if you were to tape the red button down and *only* use a head-tracker, then that would be OK. However you cannot expect to let go of the red button and resume normal operation. This is because the gyro is calibrated for the center of the screen (if you play on a monitor/TV). When it is close to the center it is more like 1:1 movement. When it is near the edge of the screen the movement is much faster. If you are using an HMD, for example, and then turned around 180 degrees the gun tracking would be way too sensitive to be useful. You also get into problems with double-tracking (if you don't hold the button down) and this could be weird.

I can't blame the designers of the gun, because free-standing VR setups are like a niche within a niche. I just hope people will be able to mod this thing for 1:1, because I think it would be great if it could do that. I emailed the company to see if they have an SDK or something, but their website is really bad. There was not even a support or developers email, so I just emailed sales, hopefully they can forward it to someone who knows something.

@bobv5: I just connected it to the computer but I didn't see anything obvious. I don't doubt it could be hacked, but I wouldn't even know where to start with this. The website and box say that firmware updates and mods are possible, so it just a matter of them releasing the software to do this. If I had time I would look into it, but way too much stuff is going on right now.

Post by **3dvison** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:40 pm

Thanks again Cyber,
I had faith in your high level of Reading comprehension and that my silly little question could not fool you.

One last question.
My cat has 1:1 movement, if I paint him blue, will he be compatible with a RIFT ?

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:45 pm

Well I actually got a reply from the email. However, the person seemed a little confused about what I was asking (they are in China, so I assume English is not their first language). Hopefully they will know something about creating custom firmware, I'd really like to get 1:1 mapping working on this thing.

Post by **cybereality** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:31 am

Hi Andres，

Thank you. Now we totally understand what you said. I's sorry to tell you that we don't need this mode.
And we don't provide SDK or API to users themselves.

Well, so much for that.

I guess if people want to do free-standing VR they will need to use a Wiimote or other options on the market.

Post by **mAchiNE** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:48 am

Well thats a shame

Thanks for all the info Cyber!

Post by **fireslayer26** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:44 am

That is a shame! I hope they realize they just lost a lot of sales by limiting it like that.

Post by **smittan** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:09 pm

Hi there!

cyberreality; could you tell us something about the latency/lag on the MAG 2? For me this product will be a sure
buy if the latency is very low. Iv gamed alot with the ps move and depending on the title there are almost always some notisible lag.

Btw, iv emaild David Hay at AIE support, he answerd alot of my questions regarding the MAG 2. Maby you should try to mail your questions to him!

David Hay <david.hay@allinteractive.com.au>

Post by **cybereality** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:44 pm

@smittan: There is some latency, but its not horrible. Probably similar to using the Nintendo Wiimote w/ Motion+. I also emailed David Hay, maybe he can help. Thanks.

Post by **smittan** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:52 am

@cyberreality: thanks for the answer!
Would you say that its as responsiv as the hydra in terms of latency? Never playd with a wii mote so a hydra comparison would be easyer to
relate to

Hope David can answer your questions!

Post by **cybereality** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:02 pm

David has been helpful. There actually *IS* a linear motion mode. Its the orange icon that looks like a Nintendo Zapper. I did try this before, but wasn't sure about it. So this is a great find.

By default its pretty sensitive, but if you turn the mouse tracking down in the game options it is pretty close to 1:1. So that is fine.

What is not fine, is that there is a bug with this mode. Basically at a certain angle it will quickly snap to a totally different angle (maybe a 180 degree switch) and then quickly snap back to where it supposed to be. Really quite annoying. I told David about this, maybe there is a way to "calibrate" the gun to avoid this. Or maybe they can release a patched firmware. If it wasn't for this glitch I think the gun would be perfect for free-standing VR.

@smittan: The Hydra, I feel, has slightly better tracking but I have not done any scientific measures. I was also testing the Hydra directly with their SDK and found that to be very responsive. With the Mag II I don't know what their software is doing (ie smoothing, filtering, etc.) so its hard to compare apples-to-apples.