Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving parts

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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by brantlew »

You can do it if you bend your knees and move at a slow, cautious, and methodical pace - like sneaking or probing. But it's awkward to cross-walk sideways at a normal pace. You have to force yourself to do it and your hips just naturally start turning either forward or backwards. Side skipping feels ok (maybe that's what you mean about combat sports), but I'm talking only about locomotion where one foot is on the ground. I think it's most useful for quick single-step dodging or lateral shift moves, but it's never sustained. Just a quick correction.

I'm willing to be proven wrong though. Can someone show me video where someone is walking sideways at a sustained and normal pace?
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Zaptruder »

brantlew wrote:You can do it if you bend your knees and move at a slow, cautious, and methodical pace - like sneaking or probing. But it's awkward to cross-walk sideways at a normal pace. You have to force yourself to do it and your hips just naturally start turning either forward or backwards. Side skipping feels ok (maybe that's what you mean about combat sports), but I'm talking only about locomotion where one foot is on the ground. I think it's most useful for quick single-step dodging or lateral shift moves, but it's never sustained. Just a quick correction.

I'm willing to be proven wrong though. Can someone show me video where someone is walking sideways at a sustained and normal pace?
In most shooters that have sensible third person view and animation - the reticle controls character view while body is typically in the direction of movement.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Okta »

brantlew wrote:You can do it if you bend your knees and move at a slow, cautious, and methodical pace - like sneaking or probing. But it's awkward to cross-walk sideways at a normal pace. You have to force yourself to do it and your hips just naturally start turning either forward or backwards. Side skipping feels ok (maybe that's what you mean about combat sports), but I'm talking only about locomotion where one foot is on the ground. I think it's most useful for quick single-step dodging or lateral shift moves, but it's never sustained. Just a quick correction.

I'm willing to be proven wrong though. Can someone show me video where someone is walking sideways at a sustained and normal pace?
I agree with all this. In boxing students are taught to step with the lead foot first so the following foot never crosses it and you maintain a wider stance for strong balance. When doing warm ups you might side step fast around the gym but that is more like a skip with both feet off the ground, but never crossing. This is all by the way though. I guess the main point is that in FPS gaming strafing is an integral part of how we play and would be missed if we cannot include it in our movement tracking solutions.
When i play FPS games i am often strafing while travelling or more likely W+A and W+D to move at an angle so i can observe something i am passing. Just general movement would be painful to say the least if you miss a doorway and wall into the frame, then you have to rotate on the spot, move forward to centre yourself then rotate on the spot again to face the opening, very clunky.

I like strafing :)
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Flassan »

I've just done this quick video http://youtu.be/_FiwAuxNLkY. Please excuse the production standards :) I just wanted to illustrate some of things we've discussed.

The first time I watched brantlew's video I don't think I fully appreciated the separation of viewing angle from direction of travel. I can believe that makes quite a difference to your sense of presence.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by brantlew »

Thanks for the demonstration. That was very informative. I think the device has some interesting possibilities - perhaps a gesture system to activate or accentuate difficult motions like backwards. Maybe not perfect, but every motion device will have compromises and this solution seems to one of the simplest and most accessible that I have seen. I am looking forward to seeing how this product develops. Good luck.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by MSat »

I think strafing in FPS games was implemented because you couldn't aim in any direction other than forward body orientation. But if you could aim to the side while moving forward, then you wouldn't really need to strafe, would you?
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by android78 »

Thanks for the video. While watching it, i couldn't help wondering if a dish that was twice the diameter, but less slippery could provide a better experience. Imagine being able to actually lift a foot off the ground and place it in front of you then, when you put weight on it, it slides towards the center point (when you stop you would likely end up in front of the center point). I think this could be more natural. For this, I think you'd need a viscous lubricant though that would limit the speed of your slide. The other thing is you would probably need a steeper slope at the side to ensure that you slide faster when you get too far forward.
To get an idea of what I'm talking about, if you've seen those soft-close drawers and how the grease keeps them from slamming shut by the spring, but you can push them in a bit faster, I think the same principle can be used here.
The obvious downfalls of this would be the mess of lubricant and cost due to larger dish construction, but have you tried something like this?
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by MSat »

I'm curious what it would be like if you were somewhat tethered and suspended in a way to where the low friction of the pad allows you walk or run in place. I think it might even simulate the sensation of accelecration.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Flassan »

Yes, we have tried many other configurations. If it’s larger you walk up the side but then find when you turn the gradient under foot changes. By keeping in the center your relationship with the ground is always consistent whichever way you turn. We found that the guarantee of always knowing where the floor is and exactly how your feet are going to react is essential to maintaining confidence.
Diving into a bit more detail consider that each foot has 29 bones and around 100 tendons and muscles which are all used to retain balance. The flat soled skate we’ve developed exploits this and means the WizDish feels very safe, even when distracted by an HMD. We’ve had to get the amount of friction exactly right to stop it being too tiring or so slick that you lose control or can’t grip enough to step around. Wheeled footwear has so little friction that it’s impossible to correct any mistake. Any kind of moving floor not only requires complex machinery but can be very unsettling to use.
I appreciate Brant’s comment and he’s right to point out the challenges of walking in reverse (incidentally his demo includes a short spell of doing so in a context that’s more authentic than sprinting backwards). I guess every engineering design is a compromise and in 11 years (yes, that long!) we haven’t found anything else to match this design. It’s worth um, taking a step back, because it’s easy to lose sight of how much more natural walking in a game is to using fingers to navigate. Looking around with a HMD is one thing but when you take a few strides and the virtual world moves in sync. your subconscious brain says “Oh my god, this is really happening and I’m really here!” It’s got to give gamers a competitive advantage too because you’re omni-aware of your surroundings.

This is all being done to make gaming more fun, but there are health benefits too. A lot of people who currently think games are wasting time will think differently of them, and maybe see active gaming as better value than gym membership?

Good point too about strafing. Ideally some of the measures that were introduced to overcome ergonomic problems can be reconsidered.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Flassan »

Hi again

Ben Lang has just written this article http://www.roadtovr.com/2012/10/10/wizd ... evice-1526

IMHO it's not whether it looks like walking in reality but what it feels like in virtual reality that matters. After all, these VR tools are designed to be used in the privacy of your own home, where we can have a distinctly casual dress sense!

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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by jaybug »

I got tired just by looking at it. :p
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Zirkon890 »

i found a report that was done by the military or a contractor reviewing there omni directional treadmill. Will have to see if i can find the link. But it was interesting in that the soldiers reviewing the large treadmill (you know the type i mean?) said that it wasnt so great at certain movements, which meant that tactical movement was very limited.

I think it refered to not being able to crawl or crouch (due to being tethered) but also that when straffing the conveyor underfoot didnt change direction immediately, so they felt the floor moving under them.....that tells me that straffing is a useful movement in real life situations especially if replicating FPS. Would be useful if it can be integrated, in some way at least.

It also mentioned that the soldiers complained they couldnt quickly alter direction, so thats another disadvantage with those large treadmills.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by brantlew »

Latency is a huge problem with those omni-devices. You can clearly see the lag in the videos and it only takes a little bit to throw you off balance. I have a feeling that walking on one of those is a "learned" skill and not entirely natural.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by profvr »

Zirkon890 wrote:i found a report that was done by the military or a contractor reviewing there omni directional treadmill. Will have to see if i can find the link. But it was interesting in that the soldiers reviewing the large treadmill (you know the type i mean?) said that it wasnt so great at certain movements, which meant that tactical movement was very limited.

I think it refered to not being able to crawl or crouch (due to being tethered) but also that when straffing the conveyor underfoot didnt change direction immediately, so they felt the floor moving under them.....that tells me that straffing is a useful movement in real life situations especially if replicating FPS. Would be useful if it can be integrated, in some way at least.

It also mentioned that the soldiers complained they couldnt quickly alter direction, so thats another disadvantage with those large treadmills.
I have been on one of the large omni-directional treadmills. The fundamental problem is that although you can walk, you have no momentum and thus any action that changes your balance needs to be done without the normal compensation that you would make for your own momentum. Thus whilst walking in a straight line is easy, starting and stopping take a little bit of getting used to (1-2 minutes*). You need to be careful turning whilst walking. Fast turns or other dynamic movements are hard to do. I was wearing a full-body harness in case I fell over, so no crouching. For a system that does allow crouching and going prone, see the "GAITER" system from Jim Templeman's lab.

There is a secondary problem with some of these treadmills, in that the smaller belts might necessarily be moving at slightly different speeds. Thus your foot might be turned by the differential speed of two belts.

*Starting walking is quite easy because the treadmill can just not move, and thus you do create self-momentum for one or two steps, but then the treadmill must re-center you, and null out your actual momentum. It can't do this easily for other motions once you were walking as it would need to predict what you were going to do.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by SouthernCross »

profvr wrote:
Zirkon890 wrote:i found a report that was done by the military or a contractor reviewing there omni directional treadmill. Will have to see if i can find the link. But it was interesting in that the soldiers reviewing the large treadmill (you know the type i mean?) said that it wasnt so great at certain movements, which meant that tactical movement was very limited.

I think it refered to not being able to crawl or crouch (due to being tethered) but also that when straffing the conveyor underfoot didnt change direction immediately, so they felt the floor moving under them.....that tells me that straffing is a useful movement in real life situations especially if replicating FPS. Would be useful if it can be integrated, in some way at least.

It also mentioned that the soldiers complained they couldnt quickly alter direction, so thats another disadvantage with those large treadmills.
I have been on one of the large omni-directional treadmills. The fundamental problem is that although you can walk, you have no momentum and thus any action that changes your balance needs to be done without the normal compensation that you would make for your own momentum. Thus whilst walking in a straight line is easy, starting and stopping take a little bit of getting used to (1-2 minutes*). You need to be careful turning whilst walking. Fast turns or other dynamic movements are hard to do. I was wearing a full-body harness in case I fell over, so no crouching. For a system that does allow crouching and going prone, see the "GAITER" system from Jim Templeman's lab.

There is a secondary problem with some of these treadmills, in that the smaller belts might necessarily be moving at slightly different speeds. Thus your foot might be turned by the differential speed of two belts.

*Starting walking is quite easy because the treadmill can just not move, and thus you do create self-momentum for one or two steps, but then the treadmill must re-center you, and null out your actual momentum. It can't do this easily for other motions once you were walking as it would need to predict what you were going to do.
All a little depressing.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Zirkon890 »

Cheers profvr for your input, i bet not many have tried the treadmill out for themselves.

@southerncross i like to understand all the advantages/disadvantages to these treadmills...it means people can then focus on solving those hard problems. theres always an answer waiting to be found, with a bit of lateral thinking.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by FingerFlinger »

Since we are talking about large ODTs again, I'll bring up an idea I've been kicking around.

Basically I want to combine a very wide, bi-directional treadmill with redirected motion. It biases the user towards the front or rear and towards the center of the belt. Software will under or over steer the user so that they are facing either forward or backward and then adjust their position back towards the center of the belt (The wide belt is to allow enough room for the redirection to take place). This kind of ODT would maintain the user's front-to-back position, but would allow her to wander side-to-side as the motion redirection reoriented her.

Advantages:

-far simpler mechanically
-single belt, so no differential speed problem
-I suspect it will alleviate some inertial problems when walking and turning, since the motion is canceled over a longer time period

Disadvantages:

-Probably needs to be ENORMOUS
-Allows the user to approach the edge of the belt; safety issues...
Last edited by FingerFlinger on Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by brantlew »

@FingerFlinger: I can't quite visualize it. Maybe a diagram.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by FingerFlinger »

Image

So the bottom image shows the user's perceived motion. They walk forward, turn 90 degrees to the left and continue to walk forward.

The top image shows the user's motion on this treadmill, which is very wide and rotates along the short axis, as denoted on the side of the image. The red line shows the user's position on the treadmill, and the arrows show what direction the user is facing at each position. As the user turns to the left, the redirection over steers him so that he eventually faces the opposite of his original orientation. Once he is facing the 'back' of the treadmill, the redirection corrects his position towards the center of the belt as he continues to walk forward.

PS: I apologize for my lack of MSPaint skillz, and I hope the explanation makes some sense. I've been thinking of making a simulation to determine how wide the belt would need to be; maybe I'll get on that finally.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by SouthernCross »

Zirkon890 wrote:Cheers profvr for your input, i bet not many have tried the treadmill out for themselves.

@southerncross i like to understand all the advantages/disadvantages to these treadmills...it means people can then focus on solving those hard problems. theres always an answer waiting to be found, with a bit of lateral thinking.

And that fact helps me get up in the morning. :D
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by profvr »

I would be surprised if someone wasn't looking at RDW on an ODT. Using a single belt is an intriguing idea, though you are right it would need to be huge (>20m probably). You might have the sensation that you had momentum in one direction only, I don't know how that would feel for users. (The largest treadmills I know of are for horses, but even those aren't very wide. They are long though so the horse can gallop).

I should emphasise that just walking on an ODT is very convincing and easy to get used to. However, because its not like real walking, there will be safety issues.

There have also been attempts to simulate momentum: I think one of the treadport systems had a haptic arm that could push the user; thus keeping them stable.

Because there are so few working systems, I think there is a lot left to be learnt about this.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by vvortex3 »

This guy moderated my comments out of his youtube channel:

"I hate to say this but the same effect can be achieved from standing in place and pretending to run. One can translate the vertical motion from jogging into forward motion. This works quite well in practice."

Over 200 users tried my VR rig at Maker Faire and out of 200 only one small child moved away from the center of the 5x5 trackable volume. I instructed the users to hold a button on the controller and run in place. Simply take any vertical motion whilst the button is depressed and turn it into forward motion (with a multiplier to match the scale of your world). This works so surprisingly well that it really feels like running, most likely more so than the Wizdish.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by JanVR »

vvortex3, can we find any pictures somewhere of your VR rig? Curious to see what you have put together.

I tend to disagree with the running/walking-in-place. I have played a few games with walking-in-place using my Kinect app (see a different thread). It sure is fun and increases the immersion, but for the brain, you are not putting one foot in front of the other, so it does not fully feel like walking. I am working on an experiment that achieves the latter - hope to share something soon.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Flassan »

Hi vvortex3

That's curious. I replied to your YouTube comment and later it said the author had removed both the comment and my reply (see pic).
I'm glad that you are making progress. I don't think there are any definitive solutions in VR, whether it be locomotion platforms, HMDs, motion sensors, graphic engines etc. As Jan says walking in place is very different and can be quite hard to sustain for longer periods, but if it works for certain people or applications then that's great.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by cybereality »

I tried the walking in place thing (using a controller to actually move) and it did not really seem to add anything. Maybe because I knew it wasn't really controlling my character my brain did not make the connection. If there was real foot tracking that may be different. I'm looking forward to trying different solutions and seeing if any of them add to the immersion.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by shent1080 »

I think it is difficult to simulate the feeling of walking without actually........walking forward, backward etc. I was looking into this about a year ago, i saw a patent had been posted for a dry lubrication system like the wizdish uses, i think it's a great idea and one step closer to what everyone want's but i think if this goes commercial it would need guard rails or something.

If you put some adjustable guard rails on the device, the user would have more confidence to just run or walk as normal, pair that with kinect which, on windows, is supposed to be more accurate and work in a smaller area, and it should be a sucess.

The wizdish or other devices like it should just be there for simulating motion only, no sensors, nothing.A 3d camera should be used to pick up the body's motion and feed it to the game.

That's just my thoughts anyway, i might be wrong but something like this would be amazing if it could work.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Flassan »

shent1080 wrote:I think it is difficult to simulate the feeling of walking without actually........walking forward, backward etc. I was looking into this about a year ago, i saw a patent had been posted for a dry lubrication system like the wizdish uses, i think it's a great idea and one step closer to what everyone want's but i think if this goes commercial it would need guard rails or something.

If you put some adjustable guard rails on the device, the user would have more confidence to just run or walk as normal, pair that with kinect which, on windows, is supposed to be more accurate and work in a smaller area, and it should be a sucess.

The wizdish or other devices like it should just be there for simulating motion only, no sensors, nothing.A 3d camera should be used to pick up the body's motion and feed it to the game.

That's just my thoughts anyway, i might be wrong but something like this would be amazing if it could work.
I couldn't agree more. It's a lot safer than it looks but it would be good to hear ideas for or offers to build after market safety devices.
In some respects its a bit like offering training wheels for adult bikes as it not certain if anyone would use them, but its still very worth considering.
Bars might have to be pretty robust for some users. What do people think of an optional inflatable ring or washer shaped crash mat?
On the other point there are so many good and emerging motion detection technologies that including them with the platform may indeed not always be preferable.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by shent1080 »

The reason i was looking at bars around the side was for a higher sense of immersion, with bars you could lean against them and run as you would normally, it's stopping quickly that then becomes the problem.

The wizdish is by far the best consumer "treadmill" i have seen, to get something that is truly great you would need to incorporate another layer in the base, below the surface ball bearings, this could have runners on it and the ball bearing would sit in them. The runners could either be controlled by ic's or tightened bolts restricting the speed at which they turn, you could even use sensor data from a 3d camera to tell the runners when to "apply the brakes"
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by mindless »

CyberVillain wrote:If someone came up with a way of walking instead of sliding I would buy one! :D
Does moon-walking count?
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by greenlantern »

Sorry shent1080 your ideas are about 20 years old :)
http://luzerne.free.fr/Rep/omnidirectio ... IEEE99.pdf

the wizdish is just a revival of the perambulator from the early 90s....
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by shent1080 »

Ha good find!

The wizdish may well be a rehash, i don't know, but nothing like this has ever come to the consumer market, the more ideas that come out for this, the better.

It's a much better option than standing still, walking on the spot.

Flassan, just a quick one, how would you strafe left and right with this?
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Flassan »

If we define strafing as 'independent head movement' - i.e. being able to walk in one direction while looking in another, then I know of two ways.
I tested brantlew's Red Rovr system that is capable of doing this. He suggests it needs a little more work to make it fully reliable but I was able to look to the side and see the scenery passing by.
We have also been discussing something similar here: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.p ... 8&start=30
The Kinect can easily provide the data to do this and much more besides.
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by shent1080 »

I was talking about physically strafing left and right but as long as you can lean i suppose it doesn't matter as i can't think of one point in my life where i have actually strafed! :P
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by colocolo »

the Wizdish sounds very promising to me in being the first consumer device that serves as a ODT.
the concept is very great . since ive heard from the Rift, i am always thinking on ideas on how to realize an ODT.
Perhaps it would be great to use the Wizdish in combination with a harness which could freely rotate.
Then u would be able to take off a foot from it while doing a step with another. just like walking on ice, only the differnce is
that u wont fall off....;
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by 3dfocus »

Hi folks

I thought you might be interested to know that I have just posted an interview with Julian about WizDish on my site.

He talks about how it came about (probably not how you think!), what he thinks about the Omni by Vituix and why he believes this to be the most natural way of walking through virtual worlds.

Enjoy!

Link - http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/3d-news-2/cons ... omes/13096
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Zoide »

Thanks for the article, 3dfocus!

That said, this is pretty ridiculous:

"3D Focus: How does this compare to the Omni by Virtuix?
Julian Williams: We sold an earlier WizDish prototype to Jan about a year ago and many people have remarked how similar his invention is to our patented one"

:roll:

Seriously? If the Omni and the WizDish are similar, then every omnidirectional movement device ever conceived is similar. I honestly don't see how a bit platform with grooves where you walk with pinned shoes while held at the waist by a harness is in any way similar to a small dish where you shuffle your feet.
Flassan
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Flassan »

Hi Zoide
I will agree that the harness is an essential element of the Omni but I can't tell you how many people have mentioned the overall similarity to the WizDish. That's all :)
Cheers,
Julian
Aabel
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Aabel »

I am curious how much the users sense of balance comes into play, from my experience that is the real source of perceiving locomotion movement, leg/foot movement isn't that important. I am also a little worried that it appears to rely on an external optical device to provide the input data. Keeping an open mind though and will get one for development purposes, but I am just not as excited about this solution as I am others.
lossofmercy
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by lossofmercy »

This will come down to price for me. If the wizdish is much cheaper than the omni, I will go with this one over omni. Granted, I am trusting the creator's word on that it will be enough to feel like I am immersed in the game.
Zoide
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Re: Wizdish: Omni-directional 'treadmill' with no moving par

Post by Zoide »

lossofmercy wrote:This will come down to price for me. If the wizdish is much cheaper than the omni, I will go with this one over omni. Granted, I am trusting the creator's word on that it will be enough to feel like I am immersed in the game.
It will be way cheaper, for sure. I wish someone could try both head-to-head and give us his impressions.
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