Allright, now it's clear why they delayed the cinemizer, they have reworked the prototype and shrinked resolution to 870x500..

http://www.videoaktiv.de/201202247047/N ... logie.html
http://www.colorfoto.de/news/carl-zeiss ... 54285.html

The authors of the article say that the resolution a official confirmation from Zeiss. Zeiss argues that it's below HD, but it wouldn't make a difference for the viewer.

Of course if they come with a small FOV viewing the picture further away, then it doesn't make a huge difference....

Stupid Zeiss. I was 99% sure the Cinemizer wouldn't be HD, since it would be totally crazy to not tout it, if it actually was. And I knew the FOV would be 35 degrees, which is why I'd already discounted it, regardless of resolution. 720p is the absolute minimum acceptable resolution for me, and I prefer 1080p. Hopefully we can now all agree - there are only two serious options; the HMZ-T1 and the ST1080. The ST1080 is probably better overall, because of comfort, portability, resolution, and brightness, but the HMZ has an extra six degrees of FOV, and OLED. But as Palmer, who's tried both, said, there's just not a lot of light going through the HMZ's OLEDs, so the ST1080 may be preferable, even though LCoS doesn't look as good as OLED, since the ST1080 is significantly brighter. As soon as I heard about the ST1080, I knew I'd buy one, and I'll preorder on March 1. The question is whether I should sell my HMZ. I probably will. I haven't used it much, despite my initial excitement with it. I bought the Blazin' 3D straps, but the HMZ is still uncomfortable for me, as well as a pain to put on (I have long hair, which catches on the plastic straps, and the soft covers make it even more difficult). The ST1080 will come on and off in a snap.

I wouldn't mind getting the $100 pre-order discount on the ST1080, but I'm still a little nervous about the unknowns - specifically the supported formats. I guess I could always resale if I was dissatisfied but I don't know if the $100 bucks is worth the hassle. Still unsure whether to roll-the-dice with a pre-order or take a more cautious approach.

Which formats? Surely it supports everything the HMZ does?

I wonder if its possible to use the Zeiss headtracker seperately from the device, they mention that they will sell the headtracker for 100€ seperately..

The device itself, the cinemizer is targeted at FPV folks, they even show it off as such in combination ith a Parrot drone on the CEBIT fair. First i wanted to go there to compare with the HMZ, but now knowing that it's below HD its no option at all for me. 870x500, such a stupid choice of resolution. If they say that it's enough than only because the FOV is 35 or lower. Asking 600€ for it ( without headtracker ) is ridicoulous, in german FPV forums folks are already complainng about the price, the average user there don't want to pay more than for a Fatshark

@STRZ: I don't think they "shrunk" the resolution. It was just never HD to begin with. Not sure how that rumor got started, but it was suspect from the beginning.

@Synexious: The HMZ supports framepacking *and* side-by-side, but the ST may only support frame-packing.

Really that resolution is too low. I won't even bother with that. Not when there are HD options on the market. Now if the other features were amazing, maybe that would change it. But I don't think they are. Probably the only thing that seems interesting is that it has an optional headtracker (which the HMZ and ST don't) so at least it could be used to VR stuff without a lot of make-shift modifications.

Well, the youtube racing guy confirmed that the prototype was 720p, he must know it because he had to set up the device in the screen manager of his graphics card

I think they decided to switch to lower resolution screens after they found out that the market they expect most sales from ( FPV ) don't need HD because the bandwith for wireless HD streaming would be too high for FPV. "If they don't need it and only want to pay amounts compared to Fatshark & co. we shrink it to be competitive in that market", logical isn't it?

A logical decision but compared to the amount they could sell to cineasts, gamers etc. pure stupidity. FPV is a niche hobby.

Just because more FPV freaks participated the poll doesn't mean that you can't reach the PC geek market or cineasts with some advertising. 500p means no gamer or cineast will think about buing it. Maybe a 60yr old who still uses a 15" CRT and owns Zeiss glasses as well and lives near Zeiss headquarters in eastern germany...

Maybe not. Remember, the Vuzix VR1200 defaults to 720p input, and it is hard to give it a native resolution WVGA input. Entirely possible that the prototype Cinemizer OLED was doing the same thing.

It might not be perfect, but if the VR1200 manages to have a niche in this price range, I am sure the Cinemizer will, too. Higher res, better displays, almost certainly better optics and diopter adjustment, etc.

I agree; it's quite likely that this was always the resolution. If it had been 720 (or more) when the prototype was unveiled a year and a half ago, they would probably have made that a major talking-point. Instead, they have been ducking every question put to them about the resolution.

I'm still curious to see the final product. Everyone who had tried the prototype has had nothing but praise for it, and the previous model (the Cinemizer Plus) was very well designed and comfortable, with good lenses.

This is certainly shaping up to be an interesting year for Head-Mounted Displays!

870 x 500 Pixels resolution and only 35 degrees FOV sounds dissapointing ... but i definatly will have a look on the Cinemizer OLED at CEBIT exhibition first.

Too bad that Silicon Micro Displays dont have an exhibition booth at CEBIT this year. That would have been perfect to be able to compare both HMD´s.
The personal impression of a product is very important after all and who knows, the quality of the image might be a positive suprise too.
The good thing is the 360 Degree Headtracker from Visenso fits perfectly on top of the Cinemizer and hopefully will work without any noticeable lag or jitter/drifting.

Still enough time after CEBIT to place an order at Silicon Micro Displays.
But we dont know yet if the ST1080 will be available in germany for the reduced introduction price of 699$ = approximately 523 Euros.
In addition we have to pay 19% import taxes + a few Euros Customs office fees in Germany = approximately 110 Euros
= approximately 633 Euros !!!

That is almost the same price as the Cinemizer OLED will cost.
( We dont even know yet, if the Visenso Headtracker will cost some extra Money or if it is included in the price of 600 Euros )

Patience we must have !

The Headtracker is not from Visenso, it's made by HSG-IMIT http://www.hsg-imit.de/

It will cost extra, about 100€.

??? The Website of Visenso says something different : http://www.visenso.de/leistungen/bundles/cinemizer.html
I know it´s the older Cinemizer Model, but i thought that they also deliver the latest generation Headtracker for the Cinemizer OLED.

Confused now.... where did you got your info from ?
Because i cannot find the Headtracker that we are talking about on that Website you linked.

I got the information from here, last post viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11510&start=165

http://www.retter.tv/de/feuerwehr.html? ... gnis=10917

But you're right, they ( visenso and HSG ) developed the headtracker together. It wasn't clear at the times i postet the link but now it makes sense, because Visenso organized the event. When they said that they developed the headtracker together i was sure they meant HSG and Zeiss. Damn, haven't paid attention to the credits mentioning Visenso, wich leads to the conclusion that the text itself is from Visenso

Is it just another 9DOF gyro type sensor?

All the videos I've seen of the Cinemizer OLED tracker look top notch. At least as good as the one on the Vuzix.

Roumors are, that the Headtracker actually was developed by inreal Technologies,
but I guess I'll have to wait till tuesday on the CeBIT to get first hand info...

The engadget video makes the headset appealing... if you forget the resolution and FOV.

At least they are showing a real interest in VR, but the spec and price just aren't there.

€650 + €100 for the tracker!!! That's almost a thousand US dollars!! What are they smoking!?!??!

The tracker seems to be interesting, i read somewhere else that its connected over USB and uses mouse movement. As its a very small and probably lightweight clipon device, and is sold seperately for around 100€ "only" maybe a real alternative pairing it with a HMZ.

2 years ago the Zeiss would have been a great device, but know offering that resolution and 30° FOV for 650€ is ignoring what the others are doing. The picture quality is maybe very good, but it's not even an upgrade in immersion for the 37" TV at the end of my bed in the dormitory. In my opinion a FOV over 40° is the minimal requirement for immersion.

For business travellers who often sit hours in trains and aeroplanes, or richkids on their car backseats it's mabe a nice to have accessoire for watching movies. And for the highend FPV folks maybe as replacement for Fatshark & co.

For multi hobby people like me who would use it mainly stationary, who have to spend their hobby budget wisely there is no budget left for mispurchasing.

If my hobby budget would be only dedicated to VR i would buy them all tbh

I'm still finding the "30 degree FOV" figure hard to believe.

The older model (the Cinemizer Plus) had an FOV of 32 degrees - same as the Vuzix 920. It's incredible that their new model would be a step down from the old one.

When you consider that the OLED display is 16:9, and the older model was 4:3, that means that the 30 degree display is going to be a lot smaller. Something strange is going on here.

The only think I can think of that comes close to explaining this, is that they are going for the high end FPV market exclusively. That would explain the resolution of the screens (FPV cameras can't really use more), the form factor, the head tracker, and the fact that includes AV in. Actually, thinking about it, since a set of FPV AIO goggles go for about $450-500, these arn't THAT much of a stretch more for those who want top gear to pay for. And when you have a $2000 FPV setup, a few hundred dollars extra for the top FPV goggles isn't a massive stretch.

The FOV on one of the most recent Fatshark FPV goggles was really low as well, 32 degrees I think. So maybe they think that FPV people want that. There is a debate amongst RC folks as to whether high FOV (immersion) or high resolution (clarity) is more important.

If they were going for FPV folks however, i question why they haven't included a RC compatible output on the headtracker out of the box.

That makes sense, except for the HDMI 3D input.
They've added frame-packing 3D through HDMI, which is presumably intended for Blu Ray and Game use, so they can't be thinking exclusively of the FPV market.
That's another point I noticed, by the way: they make no mention of side-by-side or over-under 3D, which would severely limit its use as a 3D viewer (the ST1080 has the same drawback). The old Cinemizer had side-by-side 3D.

What does FPV stand for again?

FPV= First Person View. We mount cameras and video transmitters to our R/C planes or helicopters or cars and transmit the video back to a base station that we have our video glasses hooked up to. So when we are flying for driving, its like your actually sitting in the pilots seat. Check out: http://www.rcgroups.com/video-piloting-fpv-rpv-469/

What i think is that they had 2 Models, one as it's now and another with 720p and the inbuild headtracker in the front. They could have launched it already but waited the poll before massproduction.

Result of the poll was probably that most people where FPV people who participated, beeing the group of people wich is mostly interested in this sort of devices. But that's because most people who COULD be interested in those devices do not even know that they exist and what you can do with them, a dilemma really. I see Zeiss as a very serious conservative acting company, usually OEM/ODM. They run no risks, don't spend much in propaganda as their approach is usually different.

Somehow the VR community needs to convince the hardcore gamers. For example, if somebody whith a HMD gets known due to success in an online game, many people would want to know the "material" he's using, and if it's immersive and demonstrated as useful it would make it's breakthrough from there into console market.

See it as a chain of opinion, once you convince the core people of a scene there is no limit anymore. That's he true reason why for example Apple is successfull, their image is that it is PRO hardware, because it was targeted mainly to Professional content creators who later are giving buing advice to semi pro's and so on.

In Homecinema FOV is limited to your focus view, greater than 45° would not make sense. So not ideal for our aspiration what we want VR to be if we want more massproduced devices with high FOV +45°. Gaming is where it's at

Not necessarily the hardcore games and gamers. ANY game that required VR to play and reached a mass level of popularity would work. I would have thought you were crazy ten years ago if you told me that everyone would buy a $200 game bundled with custom controllers, but look at the Guitar Hero franchise!

I just wish that Sony would spear-head this movement because they really have all the pieces just sitting there - ready to go. PlayStation + Move Camera + HMZ-T1 = very good VR gaming setup. They just need a bit of software to glue it together and a great game to make use of it.

There's not a lot of info, but this looks like it could be a great first step:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14531

@ brantlew

We'll see if the PS4 will be the game changer for Sony and VR. A while back i read somewhere that they plan to ditch their TV production to focus on other stuff...

The Guitar hero stuff is selling like sliced bread, really bananas. I can relate to the fun behind it, i'm a bit into jamming virtual instruments on a PC. Actually even thinking of buying an Ipad for that to be more flexible, there are some crazy good music apps out there, professional quality, like on PC's a few years ago. The best part of it is that tuning instruments and handling is much more intuitive, giving you less a sensation of working in front of a PC ( i sit most time in front of a PC at work )

You should check out Synthesia
http://synthesiagame.com/

Basically guitar hero for a full MIDI keyboard/piano. I suck at piano, but this thing is awesome and actually makes me sit down and practice every once in a while.

@Brentlew - Thanks for the info on Synthesia. Bought a MIDI digital piano last year just for Rock Band 3 and try to get the kids interetested in piano. Synthesia looks like the software to go for as personal piano tutor.

As for VR in PS4, the hurdle would be the pricing. Unless you are hardcore FPS, it's hard to fork out USD 1.5k for VR (PS4 - USD 500 + HMZ-T1 - USD 799 + accessories - USD 200). If you do a survey, I bet most of us that into VR are from age group of 30-50 years old as we had the financial means to get the gadget we want.

Yes the pricing is a problem. Still...1/3 of all gamers are over 30 so that is a pretty big chunk of the pie.

I highly recommend Synthesia - and go ahead and pay for the full product because the value-added features are really worth it. It automatically slows and synchronizes all the accompanying instruments to your finger speed so you can play as slow and terrible as possible with full band accompaniment. Sooo much better than normal solo practicing.

Oh, and it can also control the instruments programmed into your keyboard instead of the crappy PC midi instruments. So if you've got a decent synthesizer, it really sounds like you are playing with a symphony orchestra. Really cool.

I'm a hardcore Gamer, ranked under 100 in the world in Battlefield 3. I only played two days with my Sony HMZ, and I can tell you VR and HMD's are currently not an advantage when playing online, because of the 3D you aim slower, and because of screen size you have to move your eyes more which makes you slower, also I felt some sickness when doing extremes dives in my Little bird helicopter So I will keep playing onlone with my screen and use my HMZ for singleplayer immerse stuff..

I quit using my HMZ for online multiplayer after one round of Halo: Reach. I didn't understand what the problem was, but I suppose it was the screen size. I was playing in 2D. Why does 3D cause slower aiming? I thought having depth perception can make aiming easier. I will try going back to my HMZ. I think it's probably possible to adjust.

I play BF3 in 3D sometimes. Its funny cos you dont need to do so to have fun .... but once you turn the 3D off again, it just feels really flat and fake.
I am not as competitive on foot but with vehicle play its not really any worse. It IS a little harder to focus on people but it can also help in picking helicopters out against backgrounds etc.

RenderDevice.StereoSoldierZoomConvergeScale = 0 really improves aiming through scope, ironsight etc... WHat it does it removes the 3d completly, like in real life when you aim

Don't know how I missed this, but I totally disagree. My HTC owning friends have all gone to Samsung now. Motorola has nice build quality, but really, I dont see the difference. Its not a rock, why would you want it to be?
Your experiences with other Samsung products (made by other divisions) have nothing to do with their phones. Your friends phone has failed? Wow, I have lots of friends whose phones have failed. I also have a friend whose touch screen bit died after only a year on his HTC. So, really, I could claim exactly the same stuff, but I wouldn't, because to judge a product by one persons experience is pretty unfair. It sounds like you dont actually OWN or have owned a Samsung phone, so really your opinion is pretty much invalid.

BTW, virtually all laptops hinges fail, thats what they do. I know this, I've had lots of laptops, and used to deploy them to my company. Maybe metal unibody ones might be better... but laptops only have a 2-3 year lifespan anyway.

The features I was referring to were some of the best screens, sensitive touch screens (try some cheap brand Android phones and you will notice a big difference), and pretty much top of line hardware inside (cpu, gps, etc). I've had my Galaxy S for quite a while, never had a single issue with its hardware. My parents both have Nexus S's, absolutely no problems and they love them.

So, to put it in short, I absolutely disagree, and nothing you have said gives me the idea that you have really had enough experience with the devices to be able to judge them objectively.

Back on topic:
CyberVillain: I dont have any issues aiming with the scope in 3D, but I'll check it out anyway just to see what difference it makes.
I DO wish I could change the separation to get more popout now.

@ everyone: I used a HMZ-T1 today (actually, two of them). For those in Auckland, New Zealand, they have two on display at the Sony shop in Newmarket.
I was pretty impressed really. The form factor is TERRIBLE. My forehead felt sore after a few minutes. However, the resolution/brightness, screen size, etc, is very very nice.
I didn't have any problems with edges not being in focus or stuff like that. Also, I could easily move my head and still see both screens perfectly.

Quite tempted to get one of these now, but they are an extra $400 (another 50% of the price of the ST1080), and WILL require some serious comfort mods. Now im really torn. The screen is 16:9 compared to the Z800's, this is nicer for immersion, and the OLED displays crap over the Z800's ones (way brighter and more contrast).

Go for it! Just do the comfort mod. The problem is the pressure on the forehead that give you the headache.

I liked that I could use my glasses inside it. I'd say its the equivalent of about a 50" TV. Not VR but nice. It was VERY uncomfortable on the forehead, totally see what everyone is bitching about (and why its modded so much).

The thing is, the ST1080 claims 45 degree FOV which is the same as Sony claim for this. I've heard someone say that the HMZ measures it differently and actually has a higher FOV, but if thats the case, wouldn't they advertise it as such? Can anyone confirm or deny this either way?

I saw the HMZ advertised with 51 degree FOV. I'm going for the exit pupil in the ST1080 as well as native 1080p