Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 thread)

Talk about Head Mounted Displays (HMDs), augmented reality, wearable computing, controller hardware, haptic feedback, motion tracking, and related topics here!
ancjob
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Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 thread)

Post by ancjob »

pierreye wrote:Here's the short video playing COD:MW2. The battery pack and inverter are in the front pocket. The processor box and ASUS WAVI are secure to the back using flexible velcro strap. The VR gaming feel much more realistic compare to mouse/keyboard combo.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnbUsgJpKqs[/youtube]
Wow! what a stupid setup.....darned with a backpack with HMD on the head and with toy gun and walking about in a limited space !

is that VR gaming.....? it's stupid and bizarre to say the least :D ......i was laughing my heart out - never saw such a 'funny' video before ! :lol:

keep them coming - let the world have a laughter-riot ! :lol:
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by brantlew »

@ancjob: ??? are you being facetious ???
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by PalmerTech »

Ancjob is not here for virtual reality, he just uses HMDs for movies.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by CyberVillain »

HMD's for movies? Doesn't sound very social :D
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by Okta »

I haven't been able to see his posts for months now....
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by pierreye »

He is under my ignore list officially. All his posts are just criticism without constructive suggestion.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by WiredEarp »

@ ancjob: Why don't you post a video of *YOUR* VR setup then, so we can see how superior it is?
Perhaps you think he should be using a real gun, walking around the real world? Theres a word for that you know: REALITY.

@ CyberReality: I agree re the 1:1 tracking... it seems the act of turning is the important thing for immersion, NOT the amount you actually turn. Its definitely more fun (and you are more competitive in multiplayer) to have a higher ratio.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by ancjob »

WiredEarp wrote:@ ancjob: Why don't you post a video of *YOUR* VR setup then, so we can see how superior it is?
Perhaps you think he should be using a real gun, walking around the real world? Theres a word for that you know: REALITY.
you are right WiredEarp that's what i thought a real gun , a real battlefield and excitement 'd have been tripled.....

pierreye 'd have joined armed-forces instead ! - Gaming in real-time.... :lol:

for me pal these are novelty toys - i really like the concept of portable TVs with 3D capability hence video glasses ! and consider them for best 3D rendering at economical cost and yet they are private and portable too!

PalmerTech wrote:Ancjob is not here for virtual reality, he just uses HMDs for movies.

may be i will have VR too but the HMD scene is not motivating me enough....lack of great quality wireless HD-HMDs with built-in head-trackers .........too frustrating to get into VR at the moment!

palmer - i have graduated now to tablets for movies personal and portable - got myself acer iconia w500 and will be getting asus TF prime....shortly next month probably

pierreye setup of VR gaming is a A Classic X-Files , Skinner has assigned the case to Fox Moulder and Dana Scully , pierreye u will be contacted soon by Fox Moulder and Dana Scully - do not say that i did NOT warn you - they are everywhere looking for alien / cyborg phenomenon :D

BTW - amidst the frustrating scene of no robust progress in VR - laughing/ laugh-out-riot will be good for heath....efforts of pierreye 'd be appreciated - that he darned the costume/setup to let us know that VR can be COMEDY too , just put your mind to it and be creative with boundless imagination just like our friend pierreye demonstrated already :lol:

Kudos to pierreye - keep'em coming - love ur videos [ a laugh-out-riot] - cannot miss them for the world!
Last edited by ancjob on Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by Okta »

Just took ancjob of ignore to check out his comments. Big talk from a guy who posts the same crap complaining over and over about the best HMD (in his Bizaro opinion) to watch porn with. :lol:
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by ancjob »

Okta wrote:Just took ancjob of ignore to check out his comments. Big talk from a guy who posts the same crap complaining over and over about the best HMD (in his Bizaro opinion) to watch porn with. :lol:
@Okta : what i watch on my HMD is my personal business - you have no right to comment but now you started this - what you watch , lemme guess , devotional 'Gods' serials and dissertations , bible event dramas on these cheapo video glasses or playing those 'kiddie video games' and calling it VR - you do not know what a VR is all about ,

Playing video games on those cheapo sony's / vuzix / emagin/ ziess video glasses makes you believe yo are doing VR - well whatever you imagine you are just the fit case for psychotherapist / X-files investigator [you may be suffering from VR-Syndrome] - call Moulder/Scully and fix an appointment with them for advice you will get X-files season 10 starting too soon now i am laughing :lol:
Last edited by ancjob on Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by ancjob »

video-gaming on HMD with fov30-50 and you GUYS call it VR - you guys are being in false make-believe !

Now the reality - warn you that you will be sad reading from this point on....efforts of pierreye will be wasted - my advice after reading this , watch pierreye setup for VR again for a laugh-out-riot....at least that will get u out of depression/ frustration for the time being

HMDs in a present state what they are worth other than a cheap time pass if you are on a flight , lacking space to accommodate a FULL HD TV and watch in privacy whatever u want ! - lemme tell u HMDs as of now - not a great TV replacement , not even 3D alternatives in their pristine purity and finally not good for VR even - no wireless , no full HD quality no head-tracker bulit-in with 6-dof.....

i bet no company is vying to make the VR happen full force ! becoz it's NOT possible [read the commandments of VR bible below to find out - why? ]

tablet PCs are my new obsession now got iconia w500 already and waiting for asus Tf prime .....

! i stopped spending on HMDs - st1080 is all in all a vaporware / cinemizer OLED is trash and sony needs a lot to improve to be a true VR accessory so what have we - Xsight - can anyone afford that ! i doubt ! but that also NOT a true VR set even !

playing video games with fov 30-50 HMDs is NOT VR - just a time pass if anyone says it's VR then he/she 'd consult a psychologist / call Moulder & Scully for advice regd. VR-Syndrome - A Classic X-files case ! :D

here there is difference between 'video glasses' and 'VR HMD'...

THE BIBLE of VR states these commandments - a true VR HMD is the one with

1)FULL HD resolution and more
2)FOV 100-120 or may be more
3)built in head-tracker with 6-DOF
4)totally wireless built-in
5)FULL all format 3D support with superb resolutions
6)highly ergonomic and light-weight....
7)blocks out outside light
8)superb optics - effortless focus

DO WE HAVE ANY CONSUMER / INDUSTRIAL HMD TO FIT THE BILL AS ABOVE ?

i do not think that's possible in the present context as it will be achievable using nano-technologies not yet perfected !

if what u have is not as above [see pts 1-8 ] it's NOT VR - it's just cheap video glasses....give it names sony/vuzix/ zeiss/ emagin whatever !

question : WHAT IS VR-SYNDROME AND HOW TO IDENTIFY THAT ONE IS AFFECTED OR NOT

answer : VR Syndrome happens when you drive your mind into believing that you are doing VR whereas you know in the heart of hearts that it is not VR and constant battle rages between mind and heart to justify/disapprove VR situation leading to mental issues culminating in VR-Syndrome - can be eradicated if consulted with psychologist in time ! if ignored in early stages - one might end up in mental asylum

i hope to see this in the next season of X-files if there were to be any ! an episode on VR-Syndrome - a false make-believe mental disorder with current shabby hardware[read HMD] /software

we are a million years away from a real consumer HMD for true VR - xsight is NOT for everyone to afford [even that is not wireless , violates pt-6 ergonomics ] rest of the HMDs perfect for anything other than VR !.....heed my advice and u will bother your wallet less and less for HMDs......trust me ;)
Last edited by ancjob on Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by Okta »

Ancjob I put you on ignore months ago to avoid doing this. You are the one who buys almost every crappy HMD on the market, keeps asking people the same questions, and babble back and forth repeating the same arguments to yourself over and over, you were spamming up my email with subscription alerts. Seriously i think its time to talk to the doctor about your meds. Now you start insulting forum members and lecturing them on VR which it seems you are the LEAST here qualified to comment on.

This is not the forum to troll on as its held to pretty tight standards. There are plenty of over forums on the internet for that.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by ancjob »

Okta wrote:Ancjob I put you on ignore months ago to avoid doing this. You are the one who buys almost every crappy HMD on the market, keeps asking people the same questions, and babble back and forth repeating the same arguments to yourself over and over, you were spamming up my email with subscription alerts. Seriously i think its time to talk to the doctor about your meds. Now you start insulting forum members and lecturing them on VR which it seems you are the LEAST here qualified to comment on.

This is not the forum to troll on as its held to pretty tight standards. There are plenty of over forums on the internet for that.
now okta for you ONLY

1) i do not buy HMDs every now and then i spend my money wisely , buying crap in the name of VR is not my passion - i have a china generic HMD , emagin Z800 and headplay and the list ends there , am looking for campatible hardware but that's pricey and obsolete !

2) i have not insulted anyone ! - what one watches on HMD/video gogles is ones private business you 'd not comment - the way you had done [check your replies] !

3)what you know of VR ? - lemme guess you have emagin/vuzix / virtual reaserch v4/v6/v8 / sony HMD - with fov 30-50 or may be 60 ...and you are the whizkid of VR - like i said u r very self-opinionated !

4) i do not email / spam anybody if you have evidence send them to our respected mods for unbiased judgment - i read comments on topics and reply to them - okta do not say things that i never did !

5)if you do not like my comments - just ignore instead of making a personal war-zone between us

this forum is for info-sharing regd new developments in VR and the tech-concepts....most of the guys and mods are tech here and i am also a tech guy only that i do not peruse my dreams blindly ! i believe in info-sharing which is understandable

when VR happens - everyone will be ready for it which include me as well....

lastly How can u have a VR when there is NO headset for VR yet.....

real VR starts from FOV > 100 when you are so immersed that reality eludes you ! when characters from video game pounce on you - just like Tron situation which was the stepping stone - a concept for VR....which never evolved beyond a movie and it's sequel...

also watch an 90s VR classic - The Lawnmower Man

info here : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104692/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

that will tell what VR gaming is all about but the setup is too expensive to afford , found in research labs only in VR simulations for medical treatment of mind ailments...and to stimulate certain areas of mind by applying VR tech...

i query regd the headsets which people purchased - like to know reviews - that's it - was interested in Sony but i'd rather wait

Sony HMD is NOT yet optimized for PS3 yet - but it is NOT VR still

frankly VR has not happened yet - given the state of HMDs the future is bleak....unless a miracle happens...which we are all waiting for - aren't we ?
Last edited by ancjob on Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by Okta »

ancjob wrote:
Okta wrote:Ancjob I put you on ignore months ago to avoid doing this. You are the one who buys almost every crappy HMD on the market, keeps asking people the same questions, and babble back and forth repeating the same arguments to yourself over and over, you were spamming up my email with subscription alerts. Seriously i think its time to talk to the doctor about your meds. Now you start insulting forum members and lecturing them on VR which it seems you are the LEAST here qualified to comment on.

This is not the forum to troll on as its held to pretty tight standards. There are plenty of over forums on the internet for that.

1) i do not buy HMDs every now and then i spend my money wisely buying crap in the name of VR is not my passion - i have a china generic HMD , emagin Z800 and headplay and the list ends there here !

2) i have not insulted anyone - what one watches on HMD/video gogles is ones private business you 'd not comment - the way you did !

3)what you know of VR - lemme guess you have emagin/vuzix / virtual reaserch v4/v6/v8 / sony HMD - with fov 30-50 or may be 60 ...and you are the whizkid of VR - like i said very self-opinionated !

4) i do not email / spam anybody if you have evidence send them to our respected mods for unbiased judgement - i read comments on topics and reply to them - please do not say things that i never did !

5)if you do not like my comments - just ignore instead of making a personal war-zone between us

lastly How can u have a VR when there is NO headset for VR yet.....

real VR starts from VR > 100 when you are so immerse that reality eludes you ! when characters from video game pounce on you - just like Tron situation which was the stepping stone - a concept for VR....which never evolved beyond a movie and it's sequel....
Appreciate the calm response.

1) With your collection of HMD's you have still been spamming the boards talking them up/down, saying you DONT want a larger FOV for your movies, i recall you even said the Sony HMZ FOV was too great. But you have repeated the same statement over too many times imho. We get it, most HMD's are crap, no one really debates the state of things.

2) Making fun of pierreye's video and saying its a job for a physiotherapist and x-files is pretty insulting and immature and also infers on others here who try the same setups.

3) In VR experience I am only a novice, but still miles ahead of most. I have a VR920 that i never really used, a same optics china HMD, had a Heaplay which i sold as it was mostly unusable, but i also have a custom made +-100 FOV HMD that i have used in a similar method to pierreye's vid except with gun AND head tracking. Check my thread http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5961" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

4) When someone posts in a thread i have posted in i get an email alert. I felt you were adding a lot of posts i didn't appreciate popping up in my in box, my problem i guess.

5) As i said i did have you on ignore and just took you of after seeing some replies to your comments here.

Wait until you have tried a large FOV HMD with head tracking before you get too excited, or even a z800 with head tracking. Head tracking is where the immersion really takes of and make up for a lot of FOV evils.. As i said i have a 100 FOV unit. I agree that the stuff on the market is crap but the Sony HMZ is pushing the border of what could be immerse in the correct setup. If VR is not your thing and you have no experience why are you telling others with some experience whats up?
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by ancjob »

Okta wrote: Appreciate the calm response.

1) With your collection of HMD's you have still been spamming the boards talking them up/down, saying you DONT want a larger FOV for your movies, i recall you even said the Sony HMZ FOV was too great. But you have repeated the same statement over too many times imho. We get it, most HMD's are crap, no one really debates the state of things.

2) Making fun of pierreye's video and saying its a job for a physiotherapist and x-files is pretty insulting and immature and also infers on others here who try the same setups.

3) In VR experience I am only a novice, but still miles ahead of most. I have a VR920 that i never really used, a same optics china HMD, had a Heaplay which i sold as it was mostly unusable, but i also have a custom made +-100 FOV HMD that i have used in a similar method to pierreye's vid except with gun AND head tracking. Check my thread http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5961" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

4) When someone posts in a thread i have posted in i get an email alert. I felt you were adding a lot of posts i didn't appreciate popping up in my in box, my problem i guess.

5) As i said i did have you on ignore and just took you of after seeing some replies to your comments here.

Wait until you have tried a large FOV HMD with head tracking before you get too excited, or even a z800 with head tracking. Head tracking is where the immersion really takes of and make up for a lot of FOV evils.. As i said i have a 100 FOV unit. I agree that the stuff on the market is crap but the Sony HMZ is pushing the border of what could be immerse in the correct setup. If VR is not your thing and you have no experience why are you telling others with some experience whats up?
1)regd VR HMD what an HMD 'd be [my experiance from z800] there is a thread somewhere regd 'dream HMD for VR" - says most what i have been saying since i joined this forum ....

2)regd pierreye setup - i never said abt a 'psycho' stuff etc but then even to a layman's eye the stuff is amateurish at best - to have a light humor is not insult....!same way you did regd what i do with my HMDs....

to a person who knows nothing of VR - the setup is anything but mature....

But at times what we do is we cross the limits to be able to achieve what we want whether it gets funnier or not from a point on ....a blind pursuit....to attaining VR as long as it's done 'privately' away from the world-scope it's ok but then when brought into 'world-lens' it invites criticism / suggestions / ligtht-hearted humor as well....which i believe one 'd be open to instead of taking it as insult......at least he gave us something to smile with , instead of babbling about the crappy scene of VR which we are used to

3) i never said sony is the best but yes it's the only choice for now best or worst.....the only HMD with HDMI input which my media player , my tablets , my laptop craves for - at least HD...if not full HD.....ardently waiting to pre-oder st1080 but it seems vaporware - 90% to me....

i'd av920 the av counterpart of vr920 which had crappy 3D which i returned it to seller....

4) the larger FOV the better for games /movies and the like but it has to have fantastic optics else it 'd strain instead of 'entertain'

5)id' pay usd1800 straight if emagin gives me fov 60-80 and decent oleds like that of sony keeping everything the same but again wishful thinking !

6)a great optics without image quality is a 'waste' - z800 is a perfect example....

7) why i tell about VR when i know nothing abt it - ok lemm reply
here's what i have to say - playing games on video glasses even i might have done sometime back but's NOT VR - it's amateurish gaming at best not a VR - i recall i played quake 3 in 2D with z800 and head-tracking was decent but i did not enjoy! - it lacked immersion which i wanted

it was NOT VR even with fov 40 and decent head-tracking - i needed a bigger virtual screen with light blocking but head tracking was unable to make up for the lack of it


also watch an 90s VR classic - The Lawnmower Man info here : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104692/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

that will tell what VR gaming is all about !

to sum up flying toy f-16 airplanes and thinking you a now a test-pilot for real f-16s - that's too far-fetched a thought!

seriously no one has experienced VR yet reason there is no consumer VR headset for VR !
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by Corex »

I just like the HMD as it is, i think it looks really innovative, creative and educative when i watch the videos people post, not laughing, more like smiling cuz it bring ideas to me. Personally i'm buying the Sony HMD for their optics and oleds (not their design or choice of material). Will use it for a month or so but then i'll mold a new casing for it much like the xsight to be able to use own headset and sound output.

I have a question about the FOV issue though, when i play for example an FPS shooter, i would like to turn my eyes not tooooo much to be able to see minimap, healt or ammo wich is usually located in the corners of the screen, would i be able to see this with large FOV? I'm not goin into any shitty simulated stuff to test and fix some psycological issues from wars or such, i just wan't put on the HMD enjoy some MW3/GT5 etc. I am going to experiment alil with headtracking but it's more like taping something top of the head just for fun ;P

About the VR bible, where on earth does this come from? Virtual Reality is a term that applies to computer-simulated environments that can simulate physical presence in places in the real world, as well as in imaginary worlds. That's my "bible" of VR. VR can also be big rooms with big floors to simulate this, a prototype could cost trucks loads of money and extremly immersive and a VR close to tickle your natural senses such as smells, airflow and maybe even feel a couple of raindrops, the thing i'm talking about doesn't fit in your VR bible isn't it still VR? It would fail the "bible" but i sure as hell would like to try one though.

Props to Sony that's marketing this as a Cinematic personal 3D experience, i'm glad gaming works on it and will game alot more thatn watching movies =)
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by Okta »

ancjob wrote:
to sum up flying toy f-16 airplanes and thinking you a now a test-pilot for real f-16s - that's too far-fetched a thought!

seriously no one has experienced VR yet reason there is no consumer VR headset for VR !
F16 pilots are trained on simulators. Many enthusiast's have custom home cockpits that would impress professionals.

I dont get your "seriously no one has experienced VR yet reason there is no consumer VR headset for VR !"

Plenty of people here have used or work with pro level gear. Have you not read about Palmertech's work place? That isnt no one. Its not black and white. There are degree's of VR and suspension of disbelief. If you are waiting for the Matrix or the Holodeck then i cant help you.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by ancjob »

Okta wrote:
ancjob wrote:
to sum up flying toy f-16 airplanes and thinking you a now a test-pilot for real f-16s - that's too far-fetched a thought!

seriously no one has experienced VR yet reason there is no consumer VR headset for VR !
F16 pilots are trained on simulators. Many enthusiast's have custom home cockpits that would impress professionals.

I dont get your "seriously no one has experienced VR yet reason there is no consumer VR headset for VR !"

Plenty of people here have used or work with pro level gear. Have you not read about Palmertech's work place? That isnt no one. Its not black and white. There are degree's of VR and suspension of disbelief. If you are waiting for the Matrix or the Holodeck then i cant help you.
pal you missed the word - "consumer VR HMD" something along the lines of xsight but affordable....do we have anything like that ?

palmer may have used xsight in a pro setup but not everybody is blessed like palmer....
xsight/pisight are like those HMDs which are found in research labs or pro setup and not everyone has a chance to experience those 'pricey' toys....

but so far everyone has done gaming on 'video glasses' but that's not what VR is

also watch an 90s VR classic - The Lawnmower Man info here : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104692/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

that will tell what VR gaming is all about ! it gets on 'all of your senses' overwhelm you with it's simulated hypnotics but the hardware to too costly.....other than that it's just amateurish gaming on low fov headsets.......

i am fascinated with the setup used in that movie ..... if anyone got on board with that setup he's experienced true VR !
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by ancjob »

Corex wrote: About the VR bible, where on earth does this come from? Virtual Reality is a term that applies to computer-simulated environments that can simulate physical presence in places in the real world, as well as in imaginary worlds. That's my "bible" of VR. VR can also be big rooms with big floors to simulate this, a prototype could cost trucks loads of money and extremly immersive and a VR close to tickle your natural senses such as smells, airflow and maybe even feel a couple of raindrops, the thing i'm talking about doesn't fit in your VR bible isn't it still VR? It would fail the "bible" but i sure as hell would like to try one though.

Props to Sony that's marketing this as a Cinematic personal 3D experience, i'm glad gaming works on it and will game alot more thatn watching movies =)
1) VR bible is what i have concocted which lays the commandments for VR HMD......which helps diffrentiate between video glasses and true- VR HMDs....

BTW - VR bible is too big to be summerzied so only a few commandments which apply to HMD have been used to bring out subtle difference as to what makes video glasses a true VR HMD... :lol:
so going by that all VR HMDs are video glasses but not every video glasses is a VR HMD....

2) pal your are not in tune with times - with the onslaught of tablet PCs who'd want to watch movies on HMDs unless it's something obscene, something very sinful...unsharable - very,very personal!

i have acer iconia w500 to take care of movies - i can connect that to my FULL HD LED TV - so as of now all of my HMDs are gathering dust....waiting for asus transformer 'prime' with IPS panel and a quad-core cpu to handle 1080p plaback and streaming selling for a premium from a few sellers just like HMZ-T1

also remember do not use HMDs for longer viewing - using them is like raping your 'eyes'
and side-effects are not perceivable in short term...but this HMD stuff does affect eyesight...more or less in long term time span
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by pierreye »

Guys, let us concentrate on the feasible VR setup at the current stage and how we can further improve the experience. Further argument with him will go no way.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by ancjob »

pierreye wrote:Guys, let us concentrate on the feasible VR setup at the current stage and how we can further improve the experience. Further argument with him will go no way.
btw - did 'Moulder and Scully from X-files contact you ? they will soon , you wait :lol:

And i am waiting for another video from you ! :lol:

well jokes and humor apart - at least you tried and showed to the world irrespective of how unusual it was....!

i like ur spirit and dedication to attaining VR - exactly the same as Fox Moulder of X-files has for aliens :lol:
Last edited by ancjob on Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by brantlew »

pierreye wrote:Guys, let us concentrate on the feasible VR setup at the current stage and how we can further improve the experience.
Agreed. There are a lot of pieces of technology that have to come together to create VR. Just because one technology is not adequate does not mean that you cannot work on other parts. Why shouldn't we work on motion sensing, haptics, control mechanisms, etc just because the display technology is not complete.

Ancjob has a very narrow view for the uses for this technology - judging everything by its ability to play movies. He seems like simply a "consumer" of technology instead of a contributor or even a visionary, so I'm not very interested in his perspective.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by ancjob »

brantlew wrote:
pierreye wrote:Guys, let us concentrate on the feasible VR setup at the current stage and how we can further improve the experience.
Agreed. There are a lot of pieces of technology that have to come together to create VR. Just because one technology is not adequate does not mean that you cannot work on other parts. Why shouldn't we work on motion sensing, haptics, control mechanisms, etc just because the display technology is not complete.

Ancjob has a very narrow view for the uses for this technology - judging everything by its ability to play movies. He seems like simply a "consumer" of technology instead of a contributor or even a visionary, so I'm not very interested in his perspective.
pal i gave up watching movies on HMDs a long time ago....

as for ideas i too have ideas.....for example : all US members of this forum - pool in your contribution , invite corporate participation - get a sprawling space in California etc , build a VR theme park with cutting edge VR techno-setups....make every US guy enjoy VR for a fee....exactly like what Walt Disney did to make every [US] kid happy !

as they say - Rome was not built in a day so this will take time but someone has to start and take leadership role to show the 'enlightened path of VR' to others...

1)but the question is how many are the visionaries....???? most of us are 'consumers' of technology, got money to finance our blind pursuit ...asus wavi's , backpacks, tracker IRs , low FOV HMDs - treading the path to VR all by themselves....

2)has anybody tried ordering from kopin - SXGA screens and make custom HMDs with appropriate mouldings with fov > 100 with superb optics assembling driver boards for 3D capability - perfecting the design - later on selling it for fractions of what sensics does for - i am sure we have technocrats here with money....but who cares...?

what can one do chatting about and thinking VR in small spaces....with those pathetic video glasses....with low FOVs

just waiting for Vr to happen like everybody does ..
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by Synexious »

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-rev ... centReview" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by PalmerTech »

Disney tried to make a virtual reality theme park of sorts, look up "Disney Quest". It was/is generally considered a failure, which would make it a lot harder for any similar concepts to get corporate backing from any companies.

As far as Kopin goes, those SXGA displays cost over $6,000 each, last I heard. Getting 100 degree FOV out of a microdisplay is really, really hard, as well. Sensics products cost a lot, but they are actually pretty cheap when you consider the cost of parts, research, development, and support. Even Sony, with the ability to make their own cutting edge screens and optics, has been unable to make a perfect product.

If people want to further this discussion, I will split it off into another thread.

EDIT: Ancjob, your "VR Bible" does not make any sense. It is a good wish list, and I agree that most consumer HMDs suck, but saying that a HMD has to be lightweight in order to be "real" VR is kind of silly; F-16 pilots wear 10lb+ helmets, so for an F-16 simulator, a "real VR HMD" would also weigh 10lbs!. So are the requirements of it being wireless (What if you just want to use it for racing/flying games?), supporting ALL 3D formats (A good HMD only has to support the most common ones, no reason to support field sequential 3D for a VR HMD), full HD resolution (The Wide5 is not full HD, and it is still a stunning HMD), or a built in head tracker (Better to add your own, so you can upgrade in the future).

VR is not only possible with the absolute best, cutting edge gear. It might be bad VR, or just pretty good VR, but it is still VR, regardless of if it is good enough for you.
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Re: Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 threa

Post by PalmerTech »

After seeing how many pages of off-topic there were, I decided to split the thread. Lots of people just want info on the HMZ-T1 and its uses, I cannot imagine all of them are interested in a pissing contest between all of us VR/HMD geeks. :lol:
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by Corex »

ancjob wrote:1) VR bible is what i have concocted which lays the commandments for VR HMD......which helps diffrentiate between video glasses and true- VR HMDs....

BTW - VR bible is too big to be summerzied so only a few commandments which apply to HMD have been used to bring out subtle difference as to what makes video glasses a true VR HMD... :lol:
so going by that all VR HMDs are video glasses but not every video glasses is a VR HMD....

2) pal your are not in tune with times - with the onslaught of tablet PCs who'd want to watch movies on HMDs unless it's something obscene, something very sinful...unsharable - very,very personal!

i have acer iconia w500 to take care of movies - i can connect that to my FULL HD LED TV - so as of now all of my HMDs are gathering dust....waiting for asus transformer 'prime' with IPS panel and a quad-core cpu to handle 1080p plaback and streaming selling for a premium from a few sellers just like HMZ-T1

also remember do not use HMDs for longer viewing - using them is like raping your 'eyes'
and side-effects are not perceivable in short term...but this HMD stuff does affect eyesight...more or less in long term time span
Well there's alot of nice products, i like my car and my TV :P But my wife and kids occupies that sweet plasma and i need something for me so my PS3 doesn't get so dusty as it is right now ;P, and going to buy a new monitor but will wait till the good response ips-panels will turn up and read some reviews....

Anyways do you have a source on how and what affects eyesight long term? And if you know what kind of effects it is? I can imagine if i can get comfy with the product it'll be several hours straight at least every weekend, how much is "long viewing" ?
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Re: Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 threa

Post by cybereality »

WTF!?!?

I was just going to post that, but I feel I need to give in my 2 cents. I don't really care to debate the virtues of some so-called VR bible, but most of those things are not necessary for VR. For example, when people made the first VR rigs back in the 1980's there wasn't even the concept or term of HD as we know it today. So that doesn't even make sense. Though most of those things listed are desirable, they are not prerequisites for VR. But that is not the point I wish to make.

The point is that people in general and, in specific, on this forum should not be dwelling on negative thoughts or emotions. Especially if it is at the expense of other members of the forum. I believe part of the rules on this forum (and most forums) is that you are not supposed to insult or verbally abuse other members. Even if you are not the one to start the battle, you should still act civilized. I won't name any names, but there are some members who choose to continuous make posts that are negative in nature, complaining about products, insult other members, etc. This is not productive to do, and is really not fun for anyone.
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by fireslayer26 »

ancjob wrote: just waiting for Vr to happen like everybody does ..
Exactly.... your just waiting for it to happen. Your not doing anything to help the cause. Just bashing others attempts and creations. Atleast Palmer and Cyber and pierreye and others are actively working to improve the VR scene. What have you contributed besides your negative banter? And how many times are you going to reference X-files and the Lawnmower Man??? It's getting old!
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Re: Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 threa

Post by bobv5 »

Using truly poor gear, I had a moment, just a few seconds, that my brain thought the non existent car I was driving was some sort of physical device, not just software.

This was a crap HMD, with freetrack and a diy tactile transducer. I was wearing anaglyph glasses inside the hmd because I didn't have the adapter to do proper 3d. I won't pretend it felt like driving a real car, but it felt like more than the sum of the parts. Humans brains ignore most of what they recieve anyway. I have no real way of quantifying it, but I expect my brain is receiving gigabytes of information a second just typing this. It cant deal with it all. It fakes stuff. I really think a hmd with decent fov and some haptics would be all that is needed for a convincing experience.

It wouldn't work online, but I know a very simple trick to lead my friends into remembering things that never happened. Basically, I give them a list of words, wait two minutes, then ask them to write down the words they remember. Every time but one, they wrote the word that was not on the list, but I wanted them to think of. (Bedtime now, but if anyone is interested I will find the name of the book it came from)

PS- Mulder and Scully did actually do one episode of there documentary about VR. They were using a pretty awesome setup. I guess they banned it, cos the dudes ended up not being able to escape the simulation.......

PPS- If we ever get this stuff working to the standard it is on tv, I will be making a virtual Scully. Only $99,99. Anyone intrested? ;)
"If you have a diabolical mind, the first thing that probably came to mind is that it will make an excellent trap: how do you get off a functional omni-directional treadmill?"
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Re: Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 threa

Post by ancjob »

bobv5 wrote:
IPPS- If we ever get this stuff working to the standard it is on tv, I will be making a virtual Scully. Only $99,99. Anyone intrested? ;)
will that be in 3D ?
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Re: Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 threa

Post by ancjob »

bobv5 wrote: PS- Mulder and Scully did actually do one episode of there documentary about VR. They were using a pretty awesome setup. I guess they banned it, cos the dudes ended up not being able to escape the simulation.......
on my Acer iconia w500 just finished X-Files season 6 now on 7 but was wondering why not a single episode on VR ?

Now whether it was banned or never made , the point is we do not have had one official X-files case on VR which is disappointing!
awesome aeries and great concept !
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Re: The Sony HMD is real!

Post by ancjob »

Corex wrote: Anyways do you have a source on how and what affects eyesight long term? And if you know what kind of effects it is? I can imagine if i can get comfy with the product it'll be several hours straight at least every weekend, how much is "long viewing" ?
my uncle is an eye-specialist i showed him the z800 and headplay and since these are not available in India so he got pretty interested with concept and tried for 30 min + but what he told was as below after demo was as below

"you are looking at a virtual screen and focusing for say 1-2 hrs + playing games....but what's happening is that you are straining the eye-muscles which change the focusing capability of eye-lense" ...too much of usage [long hrs of use] is not advised whether it's cheapo ebay glasses or even the xsight/pisight , once - in a while for around 15-20 min is ok but daily usage for more than 1-2 hrs...will have effects as below.

"most likely you will be able to focus on near-by objects effortlessly but will have difficulty focusing on far-off objects that's for sure....becoz the eye-muscles have 'forgotten' to change focal length to get far-off objects into perfect view...[grown lazy]"

i previously used to watch movies for hrs[2 hrs +] [i had n't the tablets then] , had started to have issues as above [distant object viewing] - heeding the advice got my self these tablet PCs and now i am perfectly ok - i do not need glasses / contact lenses etc...i guess it was a start and early indication to limit the use of these goggles which i understood pretty well and took timely action to get away from glasses....

now i use them once in a while !

Now i understand why these gogles are not popular becoz of above
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Re: Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 threa

Post by PalmerTech »

With all due respect to your uncle, he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. What he said is not only incorrect, it is perhaps the opposite of the truth.

Most HMDs have the focus set for at least 6 feet, with the majority being between 12 feet and infinity. If anything, HMDs would make you lose the ability to focus up close, not the ability to focus far away! In fact, a good HMD is much, much easier on the eyes than a normal monitor from several feet away; that is why you are generally supposed to take a bit of a break every few hours to look away from the screen, and also why home theaters put the screen so far away from your eyes. For a person with normal vision, a screen that is focused far away is much better for long term use.

HMDs can cause eyestrain for a lot of reasons, though, like mis-alignment, color mismatch, geometric distortion, chromatic distortion, inconsistent focus across the visual field, and many other things. None of those apply to what your uncle claims, though, so I suggest you disregard his advice.

If you were to use a good HMD, something like a Pi-Sight, Wide5, or even some of the HMDs I have built myself, you would see for yourself that I am right. I can use a Wide5 for hours and hours on end without even a hint of eyestrain! The Cy-Visor is the best low FOV HMD I have used in terms of eyestrain. 800x600, 32 degree FOV, great optics, and lightweight to boot.
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Re: Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 threa

Post by ancjob »

PalmerTech wrote:With all due respect to your uncle, he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. What he said is not only incorrect, it is perhaps the opposite of the truth.

Most HMDs have the focus set for at least 6 feet, with the majority being between 12 feet and infinity. If anything, HMDs would make you lose the ability to focus up close, not the ability to focus far away! In fact, a good HMD is much, much easier on the eyes than a normal monitor from several feet away; that is why you are generally supposed to take a bit of a break every few hours to look away from the screen, and also why home theaters put the screen so far away from your eyes. For a person with normal vision, a screen that is focused far away is much better for long term use.

HMDs can cause eyestrain for a lot of reasons, though, like mis-alignment, color mismatch, geometric distortion, chromatic distortion, inconsistent focus across the visual field, and many other things. None of those apply to what your uncle claims, though, so I suggest you disregard his advice.

If you were to use a good HMD, something like a Pi-Sight, Wide5, or even some of the HMDs I have built myself, you would see for yourself that I am right. I can use a Wide5 for hours and hours on end without even a hint of eyestrain! The Cy-Visor is the best low FOV HMD I have used in terms of eyestrain. 800x600, 32 degree FOV, great optics, and lightweight to boot.
pal whatever u say - i value my eye-sight , do not want to get darned with specs/ contact lenses...so i heeded the advice usd $650 not much if the eye-sight 'd be saved the 'eye-rape'

thankfully it was just the start - so immediately gave up usage of these goggles [z800,headplay] and got iconia w500 seems they were the best alternative to watching movies and have normal vision intact....

since my primary reason was watching movies 'cinema-style'....but given the 'cons' i am now better off with tablets than with these.....getting asus transformer 'prime' next month....

the good thing is that i was able to identify the issue at the very start so this issue was remedied without any macro/micro damage !

if you can learn from my example than it' ok else your choice what can i say !
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Re: Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 threa

Post by Corex »

=) so, you believe that, an eye doctor puts the item on (just forget that he's your uncle for a min) for 30mins, he takes it off and says this will damage your vision long term by having struggle to focus on distant object WITH (keep in mind) all the research that has been done on several individuals by different researchers/scientists for different periods of time and has come to the EXACT same conclusions?

Well that's your choice but it doesn't mean it's true and probably shouldn't be shared on a forum like this.

PS: What i meant by "source" i meant an article for a research that has been done on the issue or some evidence of it.
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Re: Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 threa

Post by Corex »

cybereality wrote:WTF!?!?

I was just going to post that.
Hehehhe sorry i accidently PWND!! you :mrgreen: *giggles*
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Re: Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 threa

Post by WiredEarp »

I don't really care about tablets, I care about VR, and this is a VR forum. Personally, I wouldn't want to watch movies on a HMD myself, because the type of HMD i'm interested in should have a high FOV, and I always thought it was a waste of a potentially good HMD setting it to low FOV for video viewers.

As to eye strain, a HMD set to infinity should cause no real strain, no more than sitting in a rowboat on the sea or standing in an open field would.

The concept that eyes wouldn't adjust as much in VR, as in reality is valid, and I envision that one day HMD's will involve special defocusing systems to allow peoples eyes to change focus depending on what they are looking at *exactly as in nature) but unless you are using a HMD for hours and hours a day, I don't believe it will cause any problems. I mean, playing normal games or watching TV is also at a fixed focus, and people seem to have no problem watching TV or playing games for hours and hours without any focusing issues.
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Re: Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 threa

Post by PalmerTech »

ancjob wrote:pal whatever u say - i value my eye-sight , do not want to get darned with specs/ contact lenses...so i heeded the advice usd $650 not much if the eye-sight 'd be saved the 'eye-rape'
There have been studies on the effects of HMDs for literally decades now, and what your uncle says can be proven factually incorrect. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a simple fact that viewing an image focused at infinity could not possibly cause you to lose your close up vision. How could an eye specialist with no concept of how HMDs work know what the long term effects are? I do believe that you suffered some form of eyestrain, but lets be honest here; The Headplay is not very comfortable to view, and while the Z800 is much better, it is still a flawed product.

Neither you nor your uncle have much experience with HMDs, certainly not enough to be warning people that it is going to kill their vision, especially when all the real science goes against those claims. Come and try my Wide5 sometime if you want proof! :D

Imagine if this was the only car I have ever driven:
Image

Now, imagine that I go onto a car forum and tell them I have decided to never drive a car again. They are slow, uncomfortable to ride in, and totally unsafe, no airbags! Nobody else should be driving cars, either, and the only way I will ever try again is if it can go 700kmph, shoot lasers out of the headlights, weighs less than 500kg, and seats 12 people. Obviously, the people who own better cars and spend a lot of time upgrading them are going to disagree! You have to drive some nicer cars before you can make an informed decision. ;)
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Re: Discussion of what "true VR" is (Split from HMZ-T1 threa

Post by ancjob »

PalmerTech wrote:
ancjob wrote:pal whatever u say - i value my eye-sight , do not want to get darned with specs/ contact lenses...so i heeded the advice usd $650 not much if the eye-sight 'd be saved the 'eye-rape'
There have been studies on the effects of HMDs for literally decades now, and what your uncle says can be proven factually incorrect. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a simple fact that viewing an image focused at infinity could not possibly cause you to lose your close up vision. How could an eye specialist with no concept of how HMDs work know what the long term effects are? I do believe that you suffered some form of eyestrain, but lets be honest here; The Headplay is not very comfortable to view, and while the Z800 is much better, it is still a flawed product.

Neither you nor your uncle have much experience with HMDs, certainly not enough to be warning people that it is going to kill their vision, especially when all the real science goes against those claims. Come and try my Wide5 sometime if you want proof! :D

Imagine if this was the only car I have ever driven:
Image

Now, imagine that I go onto a car forum and tell them I have decided to never drive a car again. They are slow, uncomfortable to ride in, and totally unsafe, no airbags! Nobody else should be driving cars, either, and the only way I will ever try again is if it can go 700kmph, shoot lasers out of the headlights, weighs less than 500kg, and seats 12 people. Obviously, the people who own better cars and spend a lot of time upgrading them are going to disagree! You have to drive some nicer cars before you can make an informed decision. ;)

palmer not everybody is as lucky as u are - u have had experiences with world's best HMDs like pisight etc but those are industrial / military grade HMDs meant for research and high-tech VR applications....so obviously u know a lot more about HMDs than we all do.....conceded

what i have told u was my personal experience but that does not dwindle the interest in the area....usage may now have been 'minimal' but still i like to know more about these 'novelty toys'

so yes - on the side of caution .....nothing 'd more precious than natural eye-sight.....
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