PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by Fredz »

Do you mean something like that ? :

Image

Wouldn't this mean that HMDs don't have the same repartition of HFOV for each eye (ie. not symetric) ? Wouldn't only the HMDs with a HFOV > 120° be concerned by this, since 60° is the limit of the inward visual field for each eye because of the nose ?
Last edited by Fredz on Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by Fredz »

cybereality wrote:Well, for what its worth, I hope to have my own 3D driver available at some point.
If you didn't start programming that yet and want some starting point, you may have a look at this open source project which is basically a stereo 3D driver supporting OpenGL and anaglyph output :
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ilstereo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Could be useful to learn DLL injection, which should be one of the most difficult part for a stereo driver under Windows.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by cybereality »

@Fredz: Ok thanks. That might help. I'm just in the research stages right now.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by PalmerTech »

Fredz wrote:You can find 3" diagonal displays with reasonable resolutions in cameras, if 3" is too big I guess lower size displays could also be found. For example the Nikon Coolpix P7000 incorporates a 3" TFT display of 921,000 dots (most certainly 1280x720) and it can be found for $299 online. Also maybe a design for 3,5" displays can be created considering this size is used in some cell phones (iPhones for example). After all one of the first HMD (VIVED in 1985) was based on commodity hardware like this, using Watchman TVs from Sony at the time.

What do you mean by overlap exactly ? I don't really visualize how it would work.
921,000 dots is not much at all, certainly not 720p. That is counting all the subpixels! 640x480x3=921,600 dots (That is how Vuzix named the VR920, it had about 920,000 dots). So unfortunately, that 3" display in the P7000 is the same/lower res than you can get from the PR3. :( Even if it was higher resolution, we still have no way to drive the panel.

And yes, a design for 3.5" panels could be made, but we would need to have drivers that support adjustable overlap. The picture you made is somewhere correct, but you made a mistake: See how you made the squares a lot bigger in the image with overlap? Don't do that! If you make them the same size, you will see that you get a lot of extra space on the far right of the right display, and the far left of the left display; This lets you use panels that are too wide to place directly in front of each eye, and also greatly expands horizontal FOV.

@ERP: iPhone 4 retina displays, why not. But like you said, driving them is hard. My background with displays/control boards actually far predates my work with HMDs, and I gotta tell you, it would be next to impossible to use iPhone 4 displays. :( These displays are made to be driven directly from SOC (System-on-a-chip) units that are used as the basis for most embedded devices, and these devices have digital video outputs designed specifically for those kind of displays. A matched pair. :( Now, if you could have a custom ADC (Analog to digital converter) microchip designed to drive them, then you are all set! Problem is, that costs tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars if you are not using a panel that has a common drive format (Like LVDS), and the panels used in these phones are of the former category.

Now, you could make a one-off control board to drive these panels using an FPGA (Field-programmable-gate-array), they are commonly used for prototyping things like video control boards. Problem is... You would have to reverse engineer the display (Proprietary cell phone displays are not very well documented, generally), and then configure the FPGA to drive it from scratch. On top of that, FPGAs are bulky and expensive ($,$$$+), especially ones that are powerful enough to drive high resolution panels. You can find some work where people used FPGAs to drive older iPod displays, the 320x240 ones, but doing the same with a retina display is an order of magnitude harder.

It is just a really, really tough problem. Sure, we could demonstrate what is "viable", but spending hundreds/thousands of dollars on something that only works with a limited software demo is not really worth it. :(

It is really rather depressing.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by WiredEarp »

@ PalmerTech & Fredz: I just thought i'd mention that there are two different technologies that IMHO are promising for HMDs, due to their small size.

They are (of course) the OLED displays being produced by Sony, for the new gen of SLR type cameras that use digital viewfinders. I think Sony is the only one doing this so far but if they are popular (as I believe they will be) I suspect this will drive the adoption of higher resolution, small displays, whether OLED or LCD.

The other one is DLP chips. For example, one of these DLP chips is 0.55", XGA resolution. I see no real reason why this couldn't be used in a HMD, and there are LOTS of DLP devices out there currently so prices should be fairly reasonable. The biggest problem I can think of with DLP is the fact that most DLP systems use a spinning wheel to do the colour, which could create problems in a moving environment due to gyroscopic effects etc. However, I do think the concept is quite promising (am unaware of any HMDs that currently use DLP tho).
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by PalmerTech »

Problem is, those small displays are not useful for high FOV. I can definitely see Samsung getting into the OLED microdisplay business, but they would just want viewfinders, not immersive displays.

DLP is certainly promising, but the displays are usually even smaller than their transmissive counterparts. One of the HMDs I am working on uses a 0.5" SVGA LCOS panel, which operates in much the same way a DLP chip would. In addition, front-lit solutions like LCOS or DLP need a pretty long optical path, which makes squeezing high FOV out of them even harder (Just look at the Headplay!). The lighting system in my LCOS HMD uses a color-sequential RGB LED lighting scheme, so no moving parts to worry about.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by Fredz »

PalmerTech wrote:921,000 dots is not much at all, certainly not 720p. That is counting all the subpixels! 640x480x3=921,600 dots (That is how Vuzix named the VR920, it had about 920,000 dots). So unfortunately, that 3" display in the P7000 is the same/lower res than you can get from the PR3. :(
Ah sorry, I thought this practise of lying about the resolution was only used for HMDs. 921,600 also equals 1280x720, hence my error...
PalmerTech wrote:And yes, a design for 3.5" panels could be made, but we would need to have drivers that support adjustable overlap.
Would the adjustable overlap be needed for 3" or less display panels too ?
PalmerTech wrote:iPhone 4 retina displays, why not. But like you said, driving them is hard. My background with displays/control boards actually far predates my work with HMDs, and I gotta tell you, it would be next to impossible to use iPhone 4 displays.
This leaves the solution of an embedded HMD with the images directly generated by the phones like in this project : http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13822" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But I can understand that it's not what most people here want and that it also brings other limitations.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by PalmerTech »

No adjustable overlap would be needed for panels in the sub-3" range, because you could fit the two screens side by side and put the center of the screen directly in front of each eye. You could also use 3M stick on prisms to use 3.5" displays, but they are terrible quality. You can also use some prisms that Edmund Optics makes, but those can only adjust the angle 25 degrees max, not enough to use 3.5" displays.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by Fredz »

It could be a good idea to ask a manufacturer to build prisms for the specific need of these 3,5" displays if an appropriate design is set, since this size seems to be quite common. Some people on a French website (hardware.fr IIRC) did this for a grouped command for anamorphic prisms and they did obtain something affordable (<$100) with optical coating and very good quality glass (BK7).

It could even be possible to create DIY prisms in resin or with glass/glycerin to validate the concept before just as they did. They even wrote a specific software to calculate the angles and the chromatic diffraction based on the dimensions and refractive index.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by PalmerTech »

You could do that, but then you still need a way to drive those displays. And if you had a way to drive the displays, you could adjust the overlap in hardware, even!

One interesting path would be to make anamorphic prisms for the PR3 design. That is, have it squish the vertically stretched image of the side by side image down to the correct aspect ratio. You would get more pixels, and it would work with side by side sources, which are pretty common!
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by pierreye »

I just got the Lumagen Radiance Mini and there are 2 functions that are useful to your project. First is the auto conversion of any 1.4 3D format to the format you want. For example, you can input frame pack format and output as SBS. Second is the NLS = Non Linear Stretch. You can use the menu to define how you want to stretch the video format to fit your screen. You can modify the parameter for example to stretch more on the edge of the video compare to the center.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by PalmerTech »

Well damn.

http://www.tmdisplay.com/news/2011/2011_1020.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2560 × 1600 6.1" LCD panel.

This would be so absurdly awesome. A little too wide, sure, but that can be fixed in software, or with something like the Lumagen Radiance Mini (Thanks for showing me that!)

You would get 1280x1600 per eye, or you could use a standard aspect ratio like 1280x1024. Still, this is absolutely crazy.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by InvaderZIM »

Palmer,

can you try the 2560 × 1600 6.1" LCD panel for use in the PR3? I can't read the info on that site, but how much does this display cost?
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by PalmerTech »

They have not said. Right now, it is purely a prototype, they do not even have engineering samples available.

Pity. :(
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by brantlew »

Here's the English link.

http://www.tmdisplay.com/english/news/2 ... 1_1020.htm

Palmer - I don't know much about your wireless video transmitter, but do you think it can sustain this high of a resolution?
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by PalmerTech »

It definitely cannot. I mean, I suppose you could feed it a 1080p signal and scale it. With HMDs, the display resolution is a LOT more important than the input resolution, since you can see the pixels so much more easily than a normal display. For example, I would rather have a 320x240 signal displayed on an 800x600 HMD than a 640x480 signal displayed on a 640x480 HMD.

There are other ways, in theory. For example, current WQXGA monitors all require dual link DVI outputs to drive.

Here is a normal, single link DVI connector:
Image

Here is a dual link:
Image

In theory, you could run each set of DVI signals through its own wireless transmitter, and then you would have enough bandwidth. In practice, it entirely depends on how the control board for the panel works.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by brantlew »

That's what I figured. It's unfortunate - but then again too little bandwidth is a nicer problem to have than too little resolution. I guess you could always go with the laptop-in-a-backpack solution and go wired.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by bobv5 »

"For example, I would rather have a 320x240 signal displayed on an 800x600 HMD than a 640x480 signal displayed on a 640x480 HMD."

Insanity! I guess I have missed something major, as that seems, well, insane. The point of higher resolution is to have more detail. What good is more resolution if adjacent pixels are being driven to the exact same colour because the signal is too low res? Perhaps the scaleing circuit perform some sort of anti-aliasing? Still seems odd.

You mentioned you are working on a new version of pr3. Will this have same fov? Never thought I would say this, but I think pr3 might actually be high enough. Too much more than 120 is going to run into problems with normal game software. With 3d hacks and tracking hacks already needed, would be good to avoid fov hacks.

A possibility for driving super high res panels is to have a laptop in a backpack, and have this receive the video over wifi. This way a low spec laptop can be used and never need to be upgraded. Instead of just using a gaming laptop, most of the computing can be done on a relatively cheap, relatively fast desktop machine. It would also provide a reasonable amount of low latency local processing. A decent programmer could come up with all sorts of interesting uses for that.

EDIT- We need to come up with a better term than "laptop in a backpack"
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by brantlew »

bobv5 wrote:"A possibility for driving super high res panels is to have a laptop in a backpack, and have this receive the video over wifi."
I think you are going to introduce an unacceptable amount of latency that way. You can only get away with it with the wireless video hardware because it's dedicated circuitry. I think if you start putting a general purpose CPU in the middle to do some type of video processing and relay it's going to be really laggy. Better to just take the "hit" and put a full-power gaming laptop in the backpack to cut out ALL the bandwidth and latency problems OR (gasp) lose the backpack and go wired.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by PalmerTech »

bobv5 wrote:"For example, I would rather have a 320x240 signal displayed on an 800x600 HMD than a 640x480 signal displayed on a 640x480 HMD."

Insanity! I guess I have missed something major, as that seems, well, insane. The point of higher resolution is to have more detail. What good is more resolution if adjacent pixels are being driven to the exact same colour because the signal is too low res? Perhaps the scaleing circuit perform some sort of anti-aliasing? Still seems odd.
That is normally the point of higher resolution, yes. But with the low resolutions that HMDs use, you can often see the individual pixels! It better to have smaller pixels that are harder to see, even at the cost of detail. And realistically, 1080p gives you enough detail where it is not a huge problem. Sure, more would be better, but that is not possible at the moment.

I am messing around with the PR3 lenses, I am not sure which direction to take. It might actually end up being closer to 80 FOV, if I can get a big jump in clarity/loss of weight that way. I have tried stretching the FOV past 120, and the main problem is that you waste so many pixels on the peripheral! Just not enough pixels. :cry:

And brantlew is right, a laptop that just streams video would be too high latency, especially for head tracking. To be honest, a high end gaming laptop would be one of the cheapest parts of the setup at this point, somewhere around $2,000.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by bobv5 »

You might be right. I wasn't planing on trying it, just putting the idea out there. However it is really a software issue. These machines are capable of imperceptibly small latency, they are after all what we always use to run the games/software. I have seen linux distros that claim to run realtime. This is obviously not true, but they might be close enough. The video processing will always take time, but a 2ghz cpu should be able to compete with a 500mhz asic.

I wonder what a custom fpga would cost? I would guess a few thousand $. But that is a one off cost. Once it has been designed any amount can be made for low cost. It is not beyond a hobby project, people have cloned Cray supercomputers on fpga just for fun.

"(gasp) lose the backpack and go wired."

NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!

I would rather have less resolution. For stuff that you truly need the resolution, you would probably be sat down anyway, so better with a huge monitor/ one wall cave.



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"I am messing around with the PR3 lenses, I am not sure which direction to take. It might actually end up being closer to 80 FOV, if I can get a big jump in clarity/loss of weight that way. I have tried stretching the FOV past 120, and the main problem is that you waste so many pixels on the peripheral! Just not enough pixels. :cry:

And brantlew is right, a laptop that just streams video would be too high latency, especially for head tracking. To be honest, a high end gaming laptop would be one of the cheapest parts of the setup at this point, somewhere around $2,000."

For your application 80 may be better, but I would prefer 120. If you don't want to work on that version anymore then that is your choice but I, and I'm sure others, are still interested.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by InvaderZIM »

I have to agree that it's your Project Palmer, but I was interested in the 120 degree FOV version. Perhaps with the Sony HMD system coming out we can find a way to get a mod that gives that system the 80 degree FOV with the advantages of 720p resolution.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by cybereality »

A "laptop in a backpack" would fall under "wearable computing" so it could be called a "wearable computer" or "wearable PC". Probably more catchy is "wearable VR" which would indicate the further use of an HMD and wireless motion controllers.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by brantlew »

With all the discourse I've seen about how important FOV is, I want to see it for myself - clarity be damned! I say go for 100+ FOV Palmer.

@bobv: We could always use the unimaginative acronym "LIB"
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by fireslayer26 »

@Cybereality- If you know anyone that's working on a custom VR project, I'm selling my 2 complete MRG2.2 systems. I hate seeing them going to waste collecting dust in my office.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by pierreye »

Should call it backtop as it no longer on our lap but at our back.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by PalmerTech »

There is not really such a thing as a "custom FPGA". FPGAs are used to prototype actual dedicated components, so they are very flexible in configuration; Once you figure out how to program the FPGA to do something the way you want it, you move on to making the real ASIC (application-specific integrated circuit). And sure, people have cloned old supercomputers, but cheaper FPGAs like that are nowhere near capable of the kind of high bandwidth video processing we need. :( In the FPGA industry, units capable of what we need are marketed with terms like "Most flexibility in the sub-$20,000 range!" :lol:

And don't worry, I am still working on 120+ FOV units. Problem is, I am on a project with a deadline now, and I can't get the 120 FOV lenses light enough to fit the arbitrary weight limit (They want an HMD that is held in place with just a single elastic strap, like ski goggles). I am free to work on other things, but I need to have 4 units built by the end of November, so I don't have as much time as I would like.

I like high FOV, too. ;)
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by cybereality »

@PalmerTech: Please, don't feel rushed. I'm sure most of us here have been waiting for real VR since the 90's, whats an extra couple months?
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by Synexious »

You don't need a laptop. You can use WHDI or WirelessHD. Would the Asus WAVI work?
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by PalmerTech »

@Cyber: I don't feel rushed, or at least any more than I want to be. :lol: I was just explaining the reason for working on a unit with 80 FOV, it is not by choice.

@Aphradonis: WHDI only has enough bandwidth for 1080, maybe 1200p. That display I linked to earlier was WQXGA (2560x1600), the WHDI standard does not hand enough bandwidth to support it, and it will probably be a long time before consumer demand drives them to do so.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by brantlew »

pierreye wrote:Should call it backtop as it no longer on our lap but at our back.
Ha! "Backtop" gets my vote! :lol:
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by Synexious »

WHDI is enough for the HMZ-T1, though, right? And I think WirelessHD goes up to 10.2gbps.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by bobv5 »

Backtop +1
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by bobv5 »

"There is not really such a thing as a "custom FPGA". FPGAs are used to prototype actual dedicated components, so they are very flexible in configuration; Once you figure out how to program the FPGA to do something the way you want it, you move on to making the real ASIC (application-specific integrated circuit). And sure, people have cloned old supercomputers, but cheaper FPGAs like that are nowhere near capable of the kind of high bandwidth video processing we need. :( In the FPGA industry, units capable of what we need are marketed with terms like "Most flexibility in the sub-$20,000 range!" :lol: "

I know, when I said that, I meant that the circuit on the fpga is custom. You might be right about them not having the power. I haven' looked at the price of the chips, but they can't be too bad. My point was that if some guy can make a supercomputer for fun, it should be possible to process some video.

I feel I need to type it in big letters. This guy made a CRAY SUPERCOMPUTER. Because he was bored, FOR FUN.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by PalmerTech »

WHDI is definitely enough for the HMZ-T1. I believe it should even support 3D.

And like I said, recreating an ancient supercomputer is one thing, processing video is another. :P The Wide5 uses an FPGA to do its video processing (So you have less strain on the computer), and that one costs thousands of dollars. Unless you made an ASIC that functioned the same way, every single Wide5 needs one of those FPGAs, and nice ones like that are $,$$$ at a minimum.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by brantlew »

I'm shocked you guys use FPGA's to do your video processing. Why not just a $500 nVidia card and a CUDA programmer?
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by Okta »

Palmer: I just remembered an issue i bumped into playing with side by side. What content will be available for these HMD's? SBS movies could be converted to the correct aspect with a good media player but for games... Only IZ3d i can think of and with that you get the stretched image. The cross eyed option has the correct aspect ratio but obviously the stereo would be reversed....

edit: You can use the cross eyed option then just hit F8 to swap stereo and have correct ratio :)
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by pierreye »

With additional hardware such as Lumagen Radiance, you can convert most 3D format to SBS such as 3DTV Play. Just that it's quite expensive.
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by brantlew »

PalmerTech wrote:Well damn.

http://www.tmdisplay.com/news/2011/2011_1020.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2560 × 1600 6.1" LCD panel.

This would be so absurdly awesome. A little too wide, sure, but that can be fixed in software, or with something like the Lumagen Radiance Mini (Thanks for showing me that!)

You would get 1280x1600 per eye, or you could use a standard aspect ratio like 1280x1024. Still, this is absolutely crazy.

Just thinking about the wireless bandwidth problem in lieu of a gaming backtop... It might be possible to do a really quick and dirty lossless compression via software or GPU and transmit a video resolution that large. Maybe not 60Hz, but possibly 30Hz. Especially since it's stereoscopic and has inherent left-right redundancy. My guess it that it would require a "beast" of a machine to do the encoding, so it might interfere with the game which is also using the same resources. Additionally it would require a decoder on the other side - probably a backtop (but not as powerful as the encoder) so it some ways it defeats the purpose. However the decoder machine specs would never have to change while the gaming machine could be upgraded so it still retains some of its modular design. Not an ideal solution but worth consideration.
PalmerTech
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Re: PR3 WIP log (Upgraded, wireless PR2)

Post by PalmerTech »

In that case, you are right back to the limitations of network video streaming. Even the best possible method would introduce at least a few milliseconds of lag, and with head tracking, every single one counts.
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