Virtual Reality For The Common Man?

[Aeroflux]

I remember MechWarrior pods

Reminds me of Virtual World, Mechwarrior was cool but for me it was all about Red Planet...and that's saying something since I come from a group of friends who spent thousands (at the time) on Battletech/Mechwarrior stuff (board games).

My first immersive experience was with a freznel lens on top of monitor connected to a SGI workstation, at the Museum of Science and Industry. It was running some kind of basic free flight simulation in a remote town amidst fields of wheat. Pretty cool stuff. Then there was Starblade...that was pretty immersive too.

In my opinion, a VR arcade has to offer an experience one cannot get elsewhere--not just in interaction, but in gameplay. When Visions of Reality tried to build an arcade in 1993 they were already implementing a unique approach. Family vs. family starship battles. It was marketed to everyone. That's always been my focus. Like everyone here I had the dream of opening a VR arcade. I even made a project out of it for one of my graphic design classes. If you're going to dream, dream big yeah?

My VR arcade would have multiple floors. Family and food on the first floor with interactive puzzles displayed on the walls, interactive by using augmented blocks to construct or solve a given puzzle. These are spatial puzzles designed to engage people that have never experienced Augmented Reality. An open, family oriented, sandbox with healthy food in a relaxing and intellectually engaging atmosphere.
The second floor would be dedicated to LAN parties with PC Stations and areas (with monitors) to use your own PC. The third level would actually be two floors, augmented reality laser tag. I used to spend every thursday (the WHOLE day) playing laser tag at my local family fun center. It was a great workout, and it has massive potential as a sport. The fifth floor would be the full VR setup, akin to the research facility in Lawnmower Man. Full gyroscopes, data suits with haptic feedback, the works.

[pierreye]

By reading up some of our VR experience, I think we can guess how old we are . My first VR experience is by Virtuality VR in local Casino/Amusement Park when I'm 18 years old.

[cybereality]

Believe me, I have wanted for years to open a VR arcade. I just don't think the technology or the market is ready. I mean, maybe there are some really good HMDs out there for $50k or whatever. I would not be handing those to some random kid for $10! The quality needs to get better and the cost needs to come down. Beyond that there needs to be compelling software, which can be done with existing technology but no one has done it yet. Maybe then will mainstream audiences take notice. All these things can and probably will happen. But that is not the landscape today. But in 5 years, 10 years, who knows?

[Synexious]

Use WirelessUSB or something to make the Hydra wireless. Or a backpack laptop.

[cybereality]

Use WirelessUSB or something to make the Hydra wireless. Or a backpack laptop.

Yes, I am going to go the backpack route. I think this is going to be very cool.

[bobv5]

Be careful putting a laptop in a bag. If it has heat pipe cooling, it will only work in one direction. The chip end needs to be level with or lower than the heatsink end.

[Aeroflux]

Be careful putting a laptop in a bag. If it has heat pipe cooling, it will only work in one direction. The chip end needs to be level with or lower than the heatsink end.

Not exactly....If it has a fan than the position of the chip won't matter. The heat pipe is attached to a cooling plate (usually copper or aluminum) which absorbs heat and exchanges it with colder air in the pipe. Circulation is driven by that exhange. A fan accelerates the process. While it's true that hot air rises, this is a closed loop, and therefore the temperature difference will drive the exchange of hot/cold air no matter what position it's in. If it doesn't have a fan, it's important to face the exhaust side outward and upward to make the process more efficient. That's where your suggestion makes sense.

It might be better to use the backpack as an open mounting frame, with the bottom end of the laptop facing outward. It depends on the cooling scheme, as most modern laptops have an intake on the bottom with a fan and an exhaust on the side/back.

I may not know VR hardware, but I know computer cooling very well, as I built a couple of highly modified water-cooled computers over the last five years. I'd suggest cutting the entire back off the backpack for the best circulation. OR you could make a 1/2" PVC frame (3/4 exposed to open air) to ensure proper circulation, if you want to retain the use of the other zippered pockets. I'd also suggest holding the laptop in place with velcro straps, and point the connection output side (Power/VGA/HDMI cables) towards your head so any side impact won't jack up your laptop.

[bobv5]

Affraid I have to disagree.

Heatpipes are under vacum, or at least very low presure. It is the liquid inside that evaporates moving the heat. If all the liquid gets tipped to the cold end, it can't be evaporated at the hot end. It doesn't make much difference if it is tilted a little the wrong way, but turned 90 degrees the wrong way will cause problems.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/741/1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://vr-zone.com/articles/Scythe_Zipa ... 536-5.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think you may be reffering to air ducts, not heatpipes. Also, vr-zone website seems to cantain no content relating to vr

[Aeroflux]

Shoot, I thought for sure LHPs were in the market by now. It's been four years since we started talking about them in the OC community. I was referring to a closed loop. Point-to-point is entirely different and yes, it depends on gravity. Water cooling deals with a closed loop naturally...it's mind boggling as to why they haven't implemented the same idea in heatsinks yet. I was fooled by the last Zalman I bought. Took my gf's proc down to 23C idle on a Q6600 3.0GHz overclock, and it refused to go past 38C after 24 hours of Prime95 testing. [Edit: 27C was actually my idle on a 2600k proc] It looks like a closed loop, but after looking closer at the plate the pipes terminate, making it a point to point. My bad.

[PalmerTech]

I mean, maybe there are some really good HMDs out there for $50k or whatever. I would not be handing those to some random kid for $10! The quality needs to get better and the cost needs to come down. Beyond that there needs to be compelling software, which can be done with existing technology but no one has done it yet. Maybe then will mainstream audiences take notice. All these things can and probably will happen. But that is not the landscape today. But in 5 years, 10 years, who knows?

Oh, I definitely agree. The market is certainly not quite there! But if we can get to the point where that HMD only costs $1000, even $2000, then it is definitely possible. Those commercial laser tag sets cost $450 per set on the low end, and over $1000 on the high end! I am not saying a VR arcade could be opened right now, but I am confident that within 5 years, it will become a feasible business.

One business model would be not even to run a VR arcade, but to just make the gear (ala "LazerRunner"), and sell/lease the gear to places that already have laser tag arenas.

[cybereality]

One business model would be not even to run a VR arcade, but to just make the gear (ala "LazerRunner"), and sell/lease the gear to places that already have laser tag arenas.

That is an interesting idea. Basically sell a turnkey VR setup. Not much of a hardware guy myself, but I do know me some software. Hmmm. We should talk.

[PalmerTech]

One business model would be not even to run a VR arcade, but to just make the gear (ala "LazerRunner"), and sell/lease the gear to places that already have laser tag arenas.

That is an interesting idea. Basically sell a turnkey VR setup. Not much of a hardware guy myself, but I do know me some software. Hmmm. We should talk.

And I know hardware, but hell if I can program anything more advanced than a VCR. We definitely should talk, though I need to figure out the hardware more first. If you are making a VR engine like you have been thinking about, then sounds like we are both going in the right direction.

[kevinw729]

Know what I want to do? Bring back Virtuality, or at least the spirit behind it. People run indoor airsoft fields, indoor paintball fields, why not an indoor VR arcade? Arcades are dying because they cannot bring an experience to the table that people cannot get at home, but a VR arcade could do that easily. Imagine going to the local VR chamber with a group of friends, paying a few dollars, then suiting up to spend the next half hour in a cooperative first person shooter, with your adrenaline pumping just as much as you would from running around in a real combat zone. You could have hundreds of games, thousands of scenarios, enough to never get old! Heck, you could have people use the suits in an environment like Garrys Mod or Minecraft, where they can build their own worlds by simply walking around and creating as they see fit. Do that on weekdays...

Ah... you guys have now entered my domain
As some of you may have heard we touched on this subject in a recent Podcast: http://www.reverendkyle.com/index.php/a ... episode-43

The "VR LAN Center" approach is a definite approach, though an intermediary approach. Many people have asked me about the VR-Arcade idea, and there are a number of developers looking at building this kind of system.

There is however two ways to look at a VR arcade (HMD or CAVE), which will be the best approach for "the common man" is another issue!

[kevinw729]

I remember MechWarrior pods

When Visions of Reality tried to build an arcade in 1993 they were already implementing a unique approach. Family vs. family starship battles. It was marketed to everyone. That's always been my focus. Like everyone here I had the dream of opening a VR arcade.

Wow - just did a presentation and had to elucidate about the failed concept of VOR.


For those that do not know of the hype and failure of the planned VOR - please go here:http://www.arcade-history.com/?n=cyberg ... l&id=12620

One comment - those behind VOR found out about the need for sitdown LBE / VR very early on, and the original six-pod approach was a strong initiative (a lot of lessons learned that could be applied now).

Know what I want to do? Bring back Virtuality, or at least the spirit behind it. People run indoor airsoft fields, indoor paintball fields, why not an indoor VR arcade?

I have to state some concern regarding reliving the Virtuality or VOR path of business - especially as these business models were proven to be corrupt and flawed. Not that the idea of LBE was not good - just the vast amounts of money plowed into them and their business structure (executives and plans) were so flawed that they failed. I just did a rough calculation, and after the flotation Virtuality had half the wealth that OVR has now!!

[V8Griff]

I thought the failure of VOR was mostly attributable to it being a scam?

As you mentioned to me Kevin, many of Virtuality's failing were attributable to arrogant and flawed management. They weren't interested in the opinions and advice of those who actually operated the equipment (myself included) and sought expensive and over technical solutions to the various issues identified. On of the most significant being the ludicrously expensive Head4Head systems, which iirc cost around £120k back in the late '90s. I believe they sold two and the only one I saw was lent to an arcade I worked with in Birmingham!!

I think there is potentially mileage in something similar to the failed 'Legend Quest' experience in Nottingham which attempted to create environments that required team play as the various characters could understand different languages and perform different skills. Obviously the success of games and environments such as WoW point to the idea being right but as was always nearly the case with Virtuality the execution of the software was massively flawed with insufficient content being the the main failure to maintain the interest of the members.

[kevinw729]

@V8Giff - Thanks for remembering.

I evaluated the 'Legend Quest' at Tower Hill, London. This was in a retail unit and held six CS1000 in the Head4Head setup. But for the appalling game play, poor HMD and slow tech, the concept was fundamentally sound. It would have generated good revenue but the application of the site was badly handled (Virtuality was useless at business and reliability) and the amusement machine operator of the site washed their hands of the facility after only a few months.

I am concerned that we are reliving the VPL, Virtuality, and VOR scenario again and again in this sector!
Now hearing about the number of start-up concepts to create LAN Site style VR venues I am worried again. I also have to say that with the large amounts of money plowed into various new HMD developers we could be facing another 'Virtuality' situation.

I slightly differ my view of what went wrong with Virtuality @V8Giff - as one that dealt with the Virtuality team on and off over the years' it was clear there was a level or arrogance from them, I had dealings with the team when W.Industries and they did not like anyone knowing more than them about amusement - or offering advice. When I finally was retained to do a little consultancy on the 'ZoneHunter' title (the development director finally relenting to have someone from amusement offer game dev advice after the collapse of their SEGA relationship); it was clear the executives had a poor business approach, (as can be seen by their success in business after the bankruptcy of Virtuality!)

Regarding VOR - I was instrumental in negotiating with the management team there on the migration of their planned game from SGi to a PC based graphic system (developed by the company I represented). It was funded by angel investors and was a mess and in the end just imploded - but the fundamental approach was again good and drew much interest, but also attracted poor executives!

What I am trying (badly) to say, it looks like the 'bs' of poor technology and management killed good intentions in the previous phase of VR -I count we have had three phases - 1960's Phase One(E&S), 1980's Phase Two(VPL), 1990's Phase Three(Virtuality) and now Phase Four(OVR). Will the drive of hobbyist development make this latest phase stick - if so, is the out-of-home (facility) approach a better way to move forward than place all our eggs on home sales?

[Fredz]

As you said the failure of Virtuality can be attributed mostly to their arrogance and incompetence (both technical and managerial), two traits that the people at Oculus VR don't exhibit.

They are open minded and humbly take advice from others (Valve for low-persistence displays for example), they seem extremely competent technical wise, are very good at hiring the best people (Nirav Patel and John Carmack being quite good examples) and they do seem to handle their business pretty well judging from the funding and the hype they did generate.

But most of all, they're here to get VR in the hands of the masses and not to make a quick cash-in, and to me that makes all the difference.

[V8Griff]

I suspect Kevin is saying, as I am, that the the mistakes of the various previous VR phases need to be avoided and as such they need to take a view on the mistakes made last time and indeed perhaps take council from people who where there last time.

I don't see much of that happening and many of the 'new ideas' that are being brought forward at the present time are, in my opinion, many of the same ones that didn't work last time. I agree I don't see extreme arrogance being displayed at Oculus but as they grow I've already noticed the inevitable loss of sight of the purist goals that Palmer set out with.

Virtual Reality is a completely different ball game to games industry as it exists now and Oculus have identified that by commissioning VR specific games. Existing, complex, multi-input games are not in the longterm suitable for VR and unless there is significant investment in VR specific content it will remain a very niche sector, certainly not capable of supporting adequate financial returns a business that has has already had significant investment.

As an owner/operator of both generation of Virtuality systems I don't fully agree with Kevin about poor HMDs and reliability. Kevin will have undoubtedly been looking with a critical eye at both the hardware and software which is what his job required, however if you looked beyond those shortcomings the concept worked.

We started our business in 1993 and I continued until around 2003 hiring the systems to the corporate and exhibition space. The nature of the business meant that the machines were moved on almost a daily basis with the longest installation I ever did being a 13 day residency at the NEC Motor Show in the late '90s. I found the reaction from the majority of the players to be positive and for the most part the systems were reliable, quirky but then even though they built hundreds I viewed them very much as prototypes. I remember the Tower Hill installation and it was a failure for a number of reasons not least the rushed attempt to bolster the epic cash flow problems being suffered by teh operator. The original location in Nottingham was much better and was the result of much planning but that failed as I mentioned due the woeful lack of depth of available software.

I used to visit W-Industries/Virtuality Leicester regularly as we often had requests for more systems than we owned so we hired them directly and got to know many of the staff and directors and while I saw the arrogant and short-sighted management practices that Kevin encountered that ultimately destroyed the company there was a lot of belief in the product and VR as a technology by many of the staff and most of the original founders. Even one person who Kevin will no doubt be able to identify believed very much in what he was doing but got lost in his own Virtual World.

I still believe if they had combined their hardware with Superscape's excellent VRT software (We were Superscape's 2nd/3rd customer and first dealer)offering they could have produced some brilliant experiences and maybe ridden the wave properly but a reluctance of Superscape to associate their product with the games industry and the aforementioned arrogance killed any chance of progress along those lines despite my attempt to bring the two parties together.

I must have put many tens of thousands of people into VR and the reaction by over 90% of those was amazement and a suspension of belief by what were still quite simple games but it was the immersion that sold teh deal. The technology was crude as were the games but if you where capable of looking beyond that the concept worked.

[brantlew]

What an ancient thread... but the info from some of the really old-timers about the earlier VR initiatives and the personalities involved is fascinating.

I can't divulge too much in the way of internal politics at Oculus, but it is a fascinating mixture of personalities. Some of the most interesting stuff comes from the fact that the team was assembled so quickly with so many luminaries. Basically, almost everybody here is used to being the smartest guy in the room from wherever they came. So when you bring that many strong egos together it leads to some interesting dynamics. But eventually everyone has to eat a big ol' slice of humble pie because no matter how good you thought you were, you quickly find out that there is always someone better than you in the room - at least within some domain. That's true even for guys like JC and the team at Valve. It's a steadily evolving and often bumpy group dynamic.

I recently started a diary of the going's on around here - because I think someday it could turn into a book or something.

[V8Griff]

What an ancient thread... but the info from some of the really old-timers about the earlier VR initiatives and the personalities involved is fascinating.

I assume I'm included in that, but I've never been called a 'really old-timer' ........ should I take offence?

I think you'd be shocked if we told you the details of what went on in those days ....... definitely a missed opportunity.

I can't divulge too much in the way of internal politics at Oculus, but it is a fascinating mixture of personalities. Some of the most interesting stuff comes from the fact that the team was assembled so quickly with so many luminaries. Basically, almost everybody here is used to being the smartest guy in the room from wherever they came. So when you bring that many strong egos together it leads to some interesting dynamics. But eventually everyone has to eat a big ol' slice of humble pie because no matter how good you thought you were, you quickly find out that there is always someone better than you in the room - at least within some domain. That's true even for guys like JC and the team at Valve. It's a steadily evolving and often bumpy group dynamic.

I recently started a diary of the going's on around here - because I think someday it could turn into a book or something.

I'm sure it's fascinating, and yes keep a diary, if nothing else it will be a great record of another exciting period on the life of VR.

[BOLL]

I love reading the throwback in time depicted here, I pretty much missed the entire VR arcade business due to location, I only saw it on TV and in magazines, but at least it was a distant dream!

I recently started a diary of the going's on around here - because I think someday it could turn into a book or something.

Fascinating group of people over at this here Oculus for sure, the IQs must be bouncing off each other like mad. I recently swapped jobs myself and face the same kind of group dynamic issues, which is interesting. Looking forward to that book and later movie adaptation in 20 years Time flies quickly...

[Hadtstec]

I recently started a diary of the going's on around here - because I think someday it could turn into a book or something.

After reading "Masters of Doom" I realized that JC is an Engine Programmer, not a Game Designer. A mad scientist and absolutely fanatical about his work.
I believe he will be able to do "magical things" to bing VR to life for Android, but he also has very high expectations of work commitment for others. I wonder how that has changed over the last 10years.

I'd love to meet him, but doubt that other than fast cars we have very little in common
Would also love to meet Palmer, maybe once CV1 is out and all the pressure is off.

[Oneironaut]

I recently started a diary of the going's on around here - because I think someday it could turn into a book or something.

That's _friggin_ awesome! Have you read Masters of Doom? I expect Part 2 in a few years

Edit: Dammit, beaten!

[brantlew]

What an ancient thread... but the info from some of the really old-timers about the earlier VR initiatives and the personalities involved is fascinating.

I assume I'm included in that, but I've never been called a 'really old-timer' ........ should I take offence?

Well, I'm 40 so I don't have to much room to talk - but in VR years I'm still a noob.

[V8Griff]

Well, I'm 40 so I don't have to much room to talk - but in VR years I'm still a noob.

I guess I am an old one then, compared to a lot of the guys on here..... I'm 52 this year!!

[nateight]

I am an old one then

I think I prefer the term "Tribal Elder".

[V8Griff]

I am an old one then

I think I prefer the term "Tribal Elder".

'Tribal Elder'...... I like that

[martinlandau]

What an ancient thread... but the info from some of the really old-timers about the earlier VR initiatives and the personalities involved is fascinating.

I can't divulge too much in the way of internal politics at Oculus, but it is a fascinating mixture of personalities. Some of the most interesting stuff comes from the fact that the team was assembled so quickly with so many luminaries. Basically, almost everybody here is used to being the smartest guy in the room from wherever they came. So when you bring that many strong egos together it leads to some interesting dynamics. But eventually everyone has to eat a big ol' slice of humble pie because no matter how good you thought you were, you quickly find out that there is always someone better than you in the room - at least within some domain. That's true even for guys like JC and the team at Valve. It's a steadily evolving and often bumpy group dynamic.

I recently started a diary of the going's on around here - because I think someday it could turn into a book or something.

Brantlew, I want that book! http://www.roadtovr.com/denny-unger-on- ... oing-back/ Here is Denny Unger today! Wow! Seems from recent comments at reddit, some of the things kevin williams said about hubris, and not learning from the mistakes of the past have now born out to be true. And oculus really was not all that much wiser than virtuality hypemasters in the last cycle. I hope the execs at facebook decide to EMPLOY the consulting of people like Kevin, who has certainly at this point proven their wisdom is worth its weight in not only gold, but platinum! As to the internal politics at oculus, many at reddit are talking about carmacks comments in some forums, relating to the "TOO MANY COOKS" idea, and this was BEFORE the recent hires of what, 1200 new people? I was once told, 9 women cant birth a baby in 1 month, mythical man month issues was a concept I was taught in college in computer science classes, more people, more cooks, does not make things happen faster, can slow the hype train down actually. Here is the too many cooks video, showin how too many cooks causing losing of focus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrGrOK8oZG8